Do we need a new Tiering System for Multiversal Characters and Beyond

So browsing through this thread and-

grillmaster said:

Reasoning for this: Time is infinite, it doesn't have an "end", it goes on forever and ever, the universe would be cold, dead and barren and time will still be ticking

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I disagree with the notion that time is infinite because it would continue moving forward even if we destroy anything- it's just infinitely expanding just as space is, a thing that is infinitely expanding would never touch infinity and is infinitely smaller than an actually infinite quantity.

The universe is currently 13.7 billion years old, a trillion years later it would be a trillion and thirteen billion years old which is a finite number. Regardless of how far forward we progress in time, the total time elapsed would always remain a finite, quantifiable number. As an example for something, imagine asking someone to start counting and then checking in after a given number of years, say 'X'. No matter how large 'X' is, the number they reach would always be finite.

This is because infinity is not a value you can attain through the accumulation of finite increments, it is a concept that inherently transcends any finite progression.

Darth Zion said:

So browsing through this thread and-

I disagree with the notion that time is infinite because it would continue moving forward even if we destroy anything- it's just infinitely expanding just as space is, a thing that is infinitely expanding would never touch infinity and is infinitely smaller than an actually infinite quantity.

The universe is currently 13.7 billion years old, a trillion years later it would be a trillion and thirteen billion years old which is a finite number. Regardless of how far forward we progress in time, the total time elapsed would always remain a finite, quantifiable number. As an example for something, imagine asking someone to start counting and then checking in after a given number of years, say 'X'. No matter how large 'X' is, the number they reach would always be finite.

This is because infinity is not a value you can attain through the accumulation of finite increments, it is a concept that inherently transcends any finite progression.

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yeah thats fair and i sort of thought about it as well but shrugged it off cause i was unsure of how to deal with it

the universe having a defined beginning is the issue, but in my defense, lots of series will say the universe is as old as ours but still have it be infinite anyway (kind of like the paradox where if a universe were actually infinite, the entire sky would be lit up with infinite stars and i assume everyone would be blind
basically every series that says the universe is infinite has this contradiction and idk how to figure it out (marvel to my knowledge, dragon ball, and transformers all say the universe is infinite but also will give a defined date at which the universe was born or created which should be impossible if it were properly infinite

nevertheless back to the drawing board

put it more coherently i guess after thinking about it a little more, while i agree it probably doesnt hold up to say we can have finite universes of infinite time or what have you, in fiction we somehow have universes of finite age/time with infinite space (even though space-time are linked)

grillmaster said:

yeah thats fair and i sort of thought about it as well but shrugged it off cause i was unsure of how to deal with it

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It's because infinity is a paradox that does not really work with IRL standards. The concept of having greater or lower power becomes meaningless once you touch infinity.

A character capable of destroying a single infinite universe is technically exactly as strong as a character that can destroy a multiverse with infinite universes, it's just that the former does not have the range to spread his power across different universes. The complexity or range of the feat might increase but the power would remain same.

You can probably go into alephs and higher infinities after that for comparing, but that's just the cardinality of a set rather than quantity so contradictions would start rising from there also. Comparison itself only makes sense between finite quantities, it makes no sense with infinite ones- it's like having characters moving faster than light, impossible according to maths and physics but authors do it nonetheless. You just gotta shut down your brain and accept fiction as fiction, same with battleboarding in this case.

I know this is not helping with improving the tiering system, but such contradictions would pop up in any tiering system we can probably think of so though I'm not making this easier but I think being aware of them now is better than realizing later on.

grillmaster said:

even though space-time are linked

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The idea of space and time being linked comes from general relativity- they are linked in the sense that time is just another direction.

It states that just as an object is constantly moving through the three dimensions of space, it is also moving through the fourth direction which is time- time is just another direction which an object is always moving through. In other words, it is just another dimension as the three directions of space are.

It does not mean that you need infinite time for infinite space to exist, because the dimensions in relativity are not dependant or connected to each other. Consider a single one-dimensional infinite line for example, it is a 1-D object even if it stretches endlessly on both ends meaning its depth is zero even though it has infinite length. Another example would be a pebble that has somehow survived through infinite time, it would still remain a pebble that occupies finite space in the spatial dimensions despite having infinite age in the temporal one.

Time is a dimension that works just the same in relativity, so just as you can have an infinite line without any depth you can also have an infinite space without any time or an infinite space with finite time since the directions themselves are not dependent on each other.

The video above does a good job of explaining how relativity and the dimensions work. I don't think I can do a better job through words alone, so I recommend watching it completely if you're interested in this.

I've actually brainstormed on how an infinite universe would work before, the main problem is that matter shouldn't be able to exist in an infinite universe because an infinite amount of space-time would require an infinite amount of energy, an infinite amount of energy means that the universe would basically just be pure heat/energy, so hot that actual matter, shouldn't be able to form.

I've thought about a solution being like, another infinite plane, connected to the universe as a heatsink to absorb the infinite heat, but then I thought about it for 2 seconds and realized that wouldn't change a thing, you would just have two planes of infinite heat lol.

This is why I ain't a physicist.

Also more on topic, isn't the universe being 13.7 billion years in contention due to the existence of the Methuselah Star? I admit that I basically have no idea about the actual scientific consensus on it other than media headlines but I remember hearing how the star can't actually exist if the consensus on the universe's age was fact because it was 14.46 billion years old, meaning it existed a billion years before the universe came to exist.

Cryso Agori said:

I've thought about a solution being like, another infinite plane, connected to the universe as a heatsink to absorb the infinite heat, but then I thought about it for 2 seconds and realized that wouldn't change a thing, you would just have two planes of infinite heat lol.

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Lol, that's exactly what the Xeelee did when they started creating infinite universes for each rare in their original world to live in. But even the series says this broke thermodynamics' law of conversation and required what was reality wrapping technology- changing the value of the plank constant or smt.

'Olbers' paradox,' he whispered.

'Yes,' said the Ghost. 'A key moment in the evolution of human thought, a philosophical fossil preserved by exiles through the Qax Extirpation … If the universe were infinite and static, every line of sight would meet the surface of a star, and the whole sky would be as bright as the surface of a sun. Even occluding dust clouds would soon become as hot as the stars themselves. That was evidently not so, observed those thinkers of old Earth. Therefore their universe could not be infinite or static.'

'But here—'

'But here, things are different. This appears to be a pocket universe, Jack Raoul. We believe it is a bubble of spacetime pinched off by a singularity. The heart of a black hole, perhaps.'

'Infinite and static.'

'Yes.'

'It doesn't make sense,' Raoul said. 'If the whole sky is as hot as the surface of the sun – Ambassador, how do you keep cool?'

The Ghost rolled, shimmering. 'There is another pocket universe at the centre of the colony. Our heat is dumped there.'

Raoul gaped. 'You have a whole universe for a heat dump? And is that how the stars keep shining?'

'We think so. Otherwise, immersed in this heat bath, simple thermodynamics would soon cause the stars to evaporate. We have only recently arrived here, Jack Raoul; there is much we have yet to explore. But it is clear to us that this cosmos is heavily engineered.'

'Engineered? Who by?'

'The Xeelee,' the Ghost said.

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The quote above explains this. Now, going back to the topic at hand-

I suppose one way to get around this problem would be to assume the infinite energy and light never actually reach us because it has to cross infinite space to do that. Basically, the universe is infinite so space is also infinite- meaning the heat of the infinite stars that are infinitely away from us has to cross an infinite distance to reach us, so that heat never actually reach us because covering an infinite distance in finite time is impossible. Thus, we experience finite heat.

There should be a better way to word it, but that's the gist of it.

Cryso Agori said:

Also more on topic, isn't the universe being 13.7 billion years in contention due to the existence of the Methuselah Star?

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Nah, it was resolved-

Darth Zion said:

Lol, that's exactly what the Xeelee did when they started creating infinite universes for each rare in their original world to live in. But even the series says this broke thermodynamics' law of conversation and required what was reality wrapping technology- changing the value of the plank constant or smt.

The quote above explains this. Now, going back to the topic at hand-

I suppose one way to get around this problem would be to assume the infinite energy and light never actually reach us because it has to cross infinite space to do that. Basically, the universe is infinite so space is also infinite- meaning the heat of the infinite stars that are infinitely away from us has to cross an infinite distance to reach us, so heat never actually reach us because covering an infinite distance in finite time is impossible

There should be a better way to word it, but that's the gist of it.

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You know I actually also thought of that as a third option.

But then you'd run into another problem, if the universe isn't infinitely hot because the energy is basically spread over an infinite distance, that still means matter can't actually exist, because the energy for that matter is an infinite distance from them.

Atoms can't form because the subatomic particles needed for there existence are literally an infinity away, same for said subatomic particles.

Without atoms the basic building blocks for elements and actual matter can't form, even if they can, if light is an infinity away, life can never form because light will never reach any sort of planet.

Rather than an infinitely hot universe, you would end up with an infinitely cold universe.

Only way such a universe could form celestial bodies as far as I'm aware, is if gravity isn't beholden to the laws of thermodynamics, rather gravity somehow acts as a bridge or shortcut that allows energy to close an infinite distance allowing for the perception of a finite distance to create matter.

Cryso Agori said:

if the universe isn't infinitely hot because the energy is basically spread over an infinite distance, that still means matter can't actually exist, because the energy for that matter is an infinite distance from them.

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But this assumes that every unit of energy are infinitely far away from each other when that's not necessarily true. An infinite universe does not really have to mean that each planet is infinitely away from each other.

You can have finite distances in an infinite space. For example, the total number of natural numbers are infinite yet we can quantity the distance between one and ten in a finite value even though the set they are part of is infinite as a whole.

Meaning, the light and heat of stars that are a finite distance away from us can reach us in the time required but those infinitely away from us would never. So we wouldn't experience the heat of infinite stars as a whole while still experiencing the heat of finite ones around us.

Darth Zion said:

But this assumes that every unit of energy are infinitely far away from each other when that's not necessarily true. An infinite universe does not really have to mean that each planet is infinitely away from each other.

You can have finite distances in an infinite space. For example, the total number of natural numbers are infinite yet we can quantity the distance between one and ten in a finite value even though the set they are part of is infinite as a whole.

Meaning, the light and heat of stars that are a finite distance away from us can reach us in the time required but those infinitely away from us would never. So we wouldn't experience the heat of infinite stars as a whole while still experiencing the heat of finite ones around us.

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So what your saying is that a universe can be infinite and have infinite energy, because the energy can still be "split", I guess that's the best way to put it, into finite units within finite distance? Similar to the set of all natural numbers? There finite amounts of energy that basically "add up" to infinity?

OtherGalaxy said:

If I understood that correctly anyways

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Yes, that is more or less what I mean.

We are such dorks.

well, if we aren't going with the power to destroy the space-time of the universe being universe +, i have to ask


how much power would you actually need to destroy the space-time continuum

grillmaster said:

how much power would you actually need to destroy the space-time continuum

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Technically speaking, about just enough to create this-

that was kind of one thought id had actually, so like a universe sized black hole

i just wasnt sure if thatd qualify cause it is technically an object... isnt it??? fuck if i know actually lmfao

grillmaster said:

i just wasnt sure if thatd qualify cause it is technically an object...

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At the center of the singularity itself, the elongation of space and time technically turns infinite which creates something akin to a hole in the space-time continuum.

That should be as close to destroying space IRL as we can get. I can't think of any other space destroying phenomena that can be quantified and in numbers.

But this kinda does prove that destroying space-time can be achieved if you have enough dakka.

from what i know, a singularity is basically one-dimensional, infinite density but like no volume

as a simple version we could just use the event horizon of a black hole, since the thing is beyond the event horizon anything about black holes is basically pure speculation, but

Masterblack06 said:

just a quick little note in here to remind everyone

Observable Universe = 93 Billion LY
Scientific Estimate for true size of the universe = 23 Trillion LY

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i can use this, using the high end value because idk there is no kill like Overkill i guess

throwing it through a schwarzschild radius calculator rq it yielded a mass of 7.3253233203457E+55 kilograms, to make a kugelblitz black hole of that size would be an energy output of 6.5836722700823E+72 joules, which is a lot lol

this isnt perfect but i think its passable for now, though seems oddly small to me idk

Darth Zion said:

At the center of the singularity itself, the elongation of space and time technically turns infinite which creates something akin to a hole in the space-time continuum.

That should be as close to destroying space IRL as we can get. I can't think of any other space destroying phenomena that can be quantified and in numbers.

But this kinda does prove that destroying space-time can be achieved if you have enough dakka.

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What about micro-black holes? The type created in particle accelerators? Wouldn't that count as the closest to destroying space irl we can get (currently)

grillmaster said:

from what i know, a singularity is basically one-dimensional, infinite density but like no volume

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There are theories derived from relativity predictors that time and space both come to an end at the centre of a singularity.


It's not proven, since we need new physics to deal with singularities. What's inside an event horizon itself is not proven. But this is the closest we get to destroying space-time IRL, I guess. Another example of pure energy affecting space when thrown around at massive amounts would be magnetar explosions, potentially causing space-time to bifurcate.

Cryso Agori said:

What about micro-black holes?

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Yeah, but they evaporate too quickly due to Hawking Radiation to be observable for study. But creating a singularity is the probably best way to collapse a space-time continuum as far as we know.

You can probably play around with wave functions or false vacuums to achieve something on that level but it's too theoretical to know for sure.