To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - Touma's Boogaloo Edition

[Astaro]

Max Magic God also includes Othinus which we know Coronzon is at least as strong as if not a bit stronger. The other Magic Gods even nerfed are just that much stronger.

Like Niang-Niang while still not at her best fighting Coronzon all on her own later on. Outcome of that fight was Niang just fine while Coronzon was wounded and forced to retreat

 

[Paxton]

Remind me what actually supports True Gremlin being stronger than Othinus again?

I thought they were just salty about Othinus (and Aiwass, on the subject of calling people "failures") gaining an "understander" in the form of Touma and actually having the control to not nuke the World just by being it, with True Gremlin sorely lacking that ability.

 

[Astaro]

The fact that Othinus even at her best was never “destroy the entire universe by accident level strong” as well as her dependence on Gungnir to effectively use her power which the other Magic Gods don’t need

 

[Mr.OMG]

Like despite the fact she only sees humans as animals, Coronzon knew she was fucked when she realized she landed on WR Earth.

The Magical Gods are not stronger than Coronzon. Even while in a human body (when she was extremely weakened and could not use the pure elements and so on) she was the enemy that humanity could not defeat at this point in development. The narrative explicitly said that Coronzon was equal to or even stronger than Aiwass in power (and we know that Aiwass could defeat all the Magical Gods, since Secret Chiefs are stronger in principle than the Magical Gods). Coronzon could also destroy the Pure World (along with it the Sephiroth Tree) with a ritual, a feat that was impossible for the Magical Gods.

 

[Paxton]

The fact that Othinus even at her best was never “destroy the entire universe by accident level strong” as well as her dependence on Gungnir to effectively use her power which the other Magic Gods don’t need

The former doesn't really necessitate being stronger though, just having better control over their powers so as to not nuke it on accident, like I said.

I don't really see how the latter means they're stronger either?

 

[Paxton]

The Magical Gods are not stronger than Coronzon. Even while in a human body (when she was extremely weakened and could not use the pure elements and so on) she was the enemy that humanity could not defeat at this point in development. The narrative explicitly said that Coronzon was equal to or even stronger than Aiwass in power (and we know that Aiwass could defeat all the Magical Gods, since Secret Chiefs are stronger in principle than the Magical Gods). Coronzon could also destroy the Pure World (along with it the Sephiroth Tree) with a ritual, a feat that was impossible for the Magical Gods.

Coronzon is of Briah after all, while Magic Gods are limited to Assiah.

 

[Irradiance]

Max Magic God also includes Othinus which we know Coronzon is at least as strong as if not a bit stronger.

With only one specific spell.

One has to keep in mind that ToAru is no shonen. Spells can vary in power wildly since they don't operate on energy input = energy output logic. A sufficiently skilled magician can theoretically reach any level power with their spells, regardless of their original powerlevel. That's the whole "magic needs no talent"-idea.

The nerfed magic gods are not above regular Othinus, as Coronzon's durability and other stuff is not at the same level as Magick:Flaming_Sword.

It is pretty strange that she gets toyed with by nerfed MGs when the barrier that she powered with her own mana is able to withstand "max-value" Magic God attacks.

Do you mean the ship barrier? Pretty sure even a human could power that with the same result, seeing how it is made to be used by the royal family. It's just one of those really strong spells.

 

[Astaro]

The former doesn't really necessitate being stronger though, just having better control over their powers so as to not nuke it on accident, like I said.

I don't really see how the latter means they're stronger either?

The way they describe it, it’s because Othinus isn’t at their level

“But, High Priest,” cut in a girl’s voice that sounded even younger and also childish. “Miss Zombie’s theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg.”
“What about it, Niang-Niang?”
“I’m just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don’t want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We’re not like Othinus.”

Plus we see it for ourselves how even nerfed Magic Gods outright bully a being whose > Othinus numerous times

 

[Paxton]

With only one specific spell.

One has to keep in mind that ToAru is no shonen. Spells can vary in power wildly since they don't operate on energy input = energy output logic. A sufficiently skilled magician can theoretically reach any level power with their spells, regardless of their original powerlevel. That's the whole "magic needs no talent"-idea.

The nerfed magic gods are not above regular Othinus, as Coronzon's durability and other stuff is not at the same level as Magick:Flaming_Sword.

Do you mean the ship barrier? Pretty sure even a human could power that with the same result, seeing how it is made to be used by the royal family. It's just one of those really strong spells.

So how strong exactly would you put the Nerfed MGs/Aiwass (not full power)/Coronzon then?

Like planet level, star, etc?

 

[Astaro]

With only one specific spell.

One has to keep in mind that ToAru is no shonen. Spells can vary in power wildly since they don't operate on energy input = energy output logic. A sufficiently skilled magician can theoretically reach any level power with their spells, regardless of their original powerlevel. That's the whole "magic needs no talent"-idea.

The nerfed magic gods are not above regular Othinus, as Coronzon's durability and other stuff is not at the same level as Magick:Flaming_Sword.

Do you mean the ship barrier? Pretty sure even a human could power that with the same result, seeing how it is made to be used by the royal family. It's just one of those really strong spells.

It’s actually a lot more like Shounen than you think. Like the Golden Dawn being where their at because their mages able to call upon Magic God levels of power.

Also Gabriel pulls of Astro in Hand specifically because it has the magic power well beyond most humans to perform such a feat

I fail to see how this doesn’t apply to Coronzon in every sense. The barrier and Magick Flaming Sword both come from her mana, and she herself is just a huge mass of Telesma.

 

[Cryso Agori]

When is Coronzon said to be equal to Aiwass? Or Aiwass and the Secret Chiefs being stronger than the Magic Gods? I don't remember when that was said.

Also, tbh Irradiance is right and wrong, because it's true that having a lot of magic power can allow you to do crazy shit. But then there is also the fact that you have OT 4's entire plot being based of Touya collecting so many good luck charms it turned into powerful magic.

 

[Paxton]

When is Coronzon said to be equal to Aiwass? Or Aiwass and the Secret Chiefs being stronger than the Magic Gods? I don't remember when that was said.

Also, tbh Irradiance is right and wrong, because it's true that having a lot of magic power can allow you to do crazy shit. But then there is also the fact that you have OT 4's entire plot being based of Touya collecting so many good luck charms it turned into powerful magic.

For the first one, I don't recall the exact statement but they did literally fight each other in space.
Where Aiwass was strengthened and Coronzon was weakened (even more than she already is).
She won that fight if I remember correctly.

I don't recall when the latter statement was said either (might've been around NT9 I think), but Aleister explicitly couldn't kill the MGs without the usage of Aiwass or the A.A.A. which should imply that they're much more powerful parts of his arsenal.

And Aiwass/the Secret Chiefs (and Coronzon also, since they're all referred to as "transcendent beings" that give knowledge at that level of the Sephiroth, which Magic Gods explicitly lack since they stopped partway up the mountain) should be superior by principle, given how they rank on the Sephiroth.

 

[Mr.OMG]

When is Coronzon said to be equal to Aiwass? Or Aiwass and the Secret Chiefs being stronger than the Magic Gods? I don't remember when that was said.

It seems to be said when Aleister Crowley holds off the Coronzon. This was the context that Aleister must hurry, as the Coronzon is equal to or stronger than the Aiwass. If Aleister does not make it in time, humanity will lose.


This was said in 22NTR, the narrative explicitly stated that the Secret Chiefs are stronger than the Magical Gods. Like, just like Aiwass is stronger than Othinus, just like Secret Chiefs are stronger than the Magical Gods.

 

[Paxton]

It seems to be said when Aleister Crowley holds off the Coronzon. This was the context that Aleister must hurry, as the Coronzon is equal to or stronger than the Aiwass. If Aleister does not make it in time, humanity will lose.


This was said in 22NTR, the narrative explicitly stated that the Secret Chiefs are stronger than the Magical Gods. Like, just like Aiwass is stronger than Othinus, just like Secret Chiefs are stronger than the Magical Gods.

All we need is for Kamachi to (somehow) confirm that stuff like the Hindu Phase or the Lovecraft Mythos Phase is 1:1 with the actual myth in terms of size/complexity, and then we're golden.

And then you add the "infinite recursion" of the Sephiroth into all of this and then that's where it gets really crazy.

 

[One and Only]

Remind me what actually supports True Gremlin being stronger than Othinus again?

I thought they were just salty about Othinus (and Aiwass, on the subject of calling people "failures") gaining an "understander" in the form of Touma and actually having the control to not nuke the World just by being it, with True Gremlin sorely lacking that ability.

From NT 10
...
An external power caused a vertical tear.

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

This black world was the place not even Magic God Othinus had been able to destroy.
...

The same Hidden World quickly became collateral in Aleister house invasion scheme.

 

[One and Only]

It’s actually a lot more like Shounen than you think. Like the Golden Dawn being where their at because their mages able to call upon Magic God levels of power.

Also Gabriel pulls of Astro in Hand specifically because it has the magic power well beyond most humans to perform such a feat

I fail to see how this doesn’t apply to Coronzon in every sense. The barrier and Magick Flaming Sword both come from her mana, and she herself is just a huge mass of Telesma.

If I remember correctly Aleister has less magic power normally than a Saint though he's obviously superior.

You are definitely right and if anyone works on Shonen logic it's Coronzon whose just a mass of energy and just brute force things.

There's also that passage where Kanzaki throws up a shield to block Carissa hypersonic bunker cluster missiles. Around there it's said that spells casted by Saints are more powerful than the same thing by a normal mage whether this is because of magic power I'm not sure but is there any other reason?

 

[Astaro]

If I remember correctly Aleister has less magic power normally than a Saint though he's obviously superior.

You are definitely right and if anyone works on Shonen logic it's Coronzon whose just a mass of energy and just brute force things.

There's also that passage where Kanzaki throws up a shield to block Carissa hypersonic bunker cluster missiles. Around there it's said that spells casted by Saints are more powerful than the same thing by a normal mage whether this is because of magic power I'm not sure but is there any other reason?

Saints possess greater levels of Magic than the average mage. That’s why the Saint Destroyer spell affects them more than a normal magician and also why Acqua was especially susceptible to it since he had multiple different powers inside him while also being a Saint running at 200% power.

Another example would be Curtana swords, making the user superhuman along with those aligned with them which made Knight Leader able to beat Kanzaki with the the strength and speed provided by the Telesma given to him by Curtana.

And do you have the quote saying Aleister normally possesses less Magic than a Saint? Because this passage says the opposite

“Magic Gods are those who pursued magic to the point of no longer being human. But these Golden people have remained human while using spells that incorporate even the power of Magic Gods. But it isn’t a case of one side walking all over the other. It’s a complex mess of mutual deception and betrayal. You could say whoever lets their guard down just a little will be consumed.”

 

[One and Only]

do you have the quote saying Aleister normally possesses less Magic than a Saint? Because this passage says the opposite

I mean he had that fight with Mathers where he had to build up into being the son of God in order to block the magic flow of the the Grimore with sheer magic power.

If he's above Saints normally I don't think there would have been need for that.

 

[Irradiance]

So how strong exactly would you put the Nerfed MGs/Aiwass (not full power)/Coronzon then?

Like planet level, star, etc?

Aiwass easily defeated the Invisible Thing that Fiamma at his peak was immensely scared by. That puts vesselless Aiwass at Planet level.
Coronzon's usual stuff scales to vesselless Aiwass, seeing as the two were stalemating each other.
The nerfed MG's were fighting on par with Coronzon's usual stuff, so they as well scale to Planet level.

That's how I would scale them.

 

[Paxton]

Aiwass easily defeated the Invisible Thing that Fiamma at his peak was immensely scared by. That puts vesselless Aiwass at Planet level.
Coronzon's usual stuff scales to vesselless Aiwass, seeing as the two were stalemating each other.
The nerfed MG's were fighting on par with Coronzon's usual stuff, so they as well scale to Planet level.

That's how I would scale them.

Why only planet level though?

Even ignoring the fact that Aleister couldn't kill the nerfed MGs with his Big Bang Bomb x10 (needing the A.A.A. or Aiwass to do so), LPsAD Fiamma has both a star busting statement by the narration, and should logically scale above Archangels who have multiple spells at the level of Astro in Hand.

That's a hell of a lot higher than planet level.

Hell, nerfed MGs should be stronger than full power Phase beings, such as Vishnu and the like, when Marian summoned them in NT10, who were going to destroy the world if not for the barrier put in place by her.