Ever since Elden Ring was released its scaling has been an extremely contentious point in this hobby, with considerable debate surrounding General Radahn and his moniker "Conqueror of the Stars"/ 星砕きのラダーン (Star Crusher Radahn). When Radahn is defeated, a meteor is seen crashing into Limgrave, prompting many to assume that this is the true extent of his powers, and that the lore simply conflates real stars with shooting stars. In the past, I ardently argued that Radahn manipulated real stars, however, my reasoning for this was extremely flawed which prompted me to do much more extensive research in the interest of honest debating and scaling over the past year. In this thread I want to lay out my conclusions and how I think Radahn's scaling should be applied, since he is the single most important character for scaling the rest of the cast.
Of crucial importance to this breakdown will be some Japanese terminology and translations. I am not a Japanese speaker and I welcome anyone fluent to correct me. However I have sourced my interpretations of these terms with explanations from native speakers, which will be included in this thread. To my knowledge the specific terms I will be referencing haven't been covered in regards to scaling yet, so hopefully this information will prove useful.
I. The Starscourge Conflict
Starting at the beginning, I want to go over what the Starscourge Conflict actually entailed.
"A talisman engraved with a scene from a heroic tale.
Raises strength.
The mightiest hero of the demigods confronted the falling stars alone—and thus did he crush them, his conquest sealing the very fate of the stars."
"英雄の伝承が刻まれたタリスマン
筋力を高める
デミゴッドで最も強いとされた英雄は
降る星に一人で挑み、これを砕き
以来、星の運命は封印されたという"
The Starscourge Heirloom plainly lays out that Radahn confronted "Falling Stars" i.e. Meteors, and after crushing them "sealed the fate of the stars". The visual for the Heirloom showcases him staring down at an oncoming meteorite, with a starry sky in the background. The Japanese uses "Furu Hoshi" which as far as I can tell simply means "falling stars". The game in general uses either "Furu Hoshi" or "Ryusei" (流星) for meteor related things. There is established terminology here that denotes what type of celestial object is being referred to.
And from the Starscourge Sword Monument
"In the Battle of the Starcrusher, Radahn serves as Sallia’s protector, stands alone against the stars, and crushes them."
(Lokey's translation here )^
The monument is far less specific about the conflict involving only falling stars, in both English, Japanese, and a second independent translation.
I next want to examine the terminology behind the items and spells in the game that directly reference meteors as opposed to gas based stars as we understand them.
"This legendary incantation is the most ancient of those
that derive from the Erdtree.
Creates a stream of golden shooting stars that assail the area.
It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star
bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later
become the Elden Ring."
"最古とされる黄金樹の祈祷
「伝説の祈祷」のひとつ
無数の黄金の流星を生じ、周囲を攻撃する
かつて、大いなる意志は
黄金の流星と共に、一匹の獣を狭間に送り
それが、エルデンリングになったという"
This spell is often brought up as an example of stars in Elden Ring not being "real stars" however from the description mentioning shooting stars, even in the localization we can see something is amiss. The Japanese text actually specifically uses "流星" / Ryūsei/ Meteor/ Shooting Star. The Elden Beast was always meant to have arrived on a meteor. The Gravity Fan and Gravity Stone Chunk consumable items notably use "隕石" Inseki for Meteorite, while the Fallingstar Beasts are called "降る星の獣" which uses "Furu Hoshi" similar to the Starscourge Heirloom.
Numerous Glintstone and even Primeval Current Sorceries actually include "Ryūsei" in the Japanese spell names, which means many of them being localized as "Stars" and thus discrediting the notion of "real stars" in Elden Ring has actually always been a misunderstanding. These spells were always specifically meant to refer to meteors and shooting stars. Examples below
Stars of Ruin / 滅びの流星 (Horobi no Ryūsei)
Glintstone Stars / 輝石の流星 (Kiseki no Ryūsei)
Star Shower / 流星群 (Ryūseigun)
As we can see above these spells were always meant to involve shooting stars. With that covered, I want to next speak about when the game refers to real stars i.e. those unrelated to the "Ryūsei" or "Furu Hoshi" terminology. There are several concrete examples, but the most important of them is the Eclipse Crest Greatshield
"Metal greatshield painted with a sun in eclipse. Carried by the headless mausoleum knights.
The eclipsed sun, drained of color, is the protective star of soulless demigods. It aids the mausoleum knights by keeping Destined Death at bay."
"蝕の太陽が描かれた、金属の大盾
首のない、霊廟騎士たちの得物
蝕まれ、色を失くした太陽は
魂無きデミゴッドの守護星であり
彼らを、運命の死から遠ざけるという"
The sun is referred to as the "Protective star" / 守護星 (Shugo Hoshi) of the Soulless Demigods. This is not conflated with meteors per the terminology used consistently in the previous examples, and given a real sun is observed in the game, there aren't any grounds to assume the two behave similarly.
Other items also reference specific stars.
Black Leather Shield
"Roundshield covered in black leather. On the larger side for a medium-sized shield.
From the north, this shield depicts the polar star in rivets of gold. The inside is lined with fur, protecting the carrier from frost."
"黒革張りの円盾
中盾としては、大きい部類
金の鋲で極星が描かれた北方の盾
毛皮の裏張りは、冷気を防ぐ"
The standard terms for meteors and shooting stars are not found here, when they were consistently used elsewhere. Comets are also consistently referred to with "Suisei" / 彗星 (eg Comet Azur is 彗星アズール) so it should not be confused with those either. Real stars play heavily into the next section as well.
II. The Night Sky No Longer Cradles Fate
Of crucial importance in separating real stars from other celestial phenomena in Elden Ring is their connection to Fate. We established previously that Radahn sealed fate, and there is more context to examine to explain exactly what this entails.
Starlight Shards / 星光の欠片 (Seikō no Kakera) refer to, quite literally, the light emitted by the stars. The Amber version elaborates further about the standard stars guding the fate of man, and Amber hued stars guding those of the gods.
Amber Starlight / 琥珀の星光 (Kohaku no Seikō)
"
An ephemeral sliver that gives off a pale amber glow.
What remains of a passing flash of starlight.
If the stars command our fates, then amber-hued stars must command the fates of the gods.
Such is the belief that inspired the use of these shards to prepare a most special draught.
Cannot be consumed by mere humans. "
"
琥珀色に輝く、儚い細片
束の間に流れた星光の残滓
星光が運命を司るとすれば
琥珀色のそれは、神々の運命であるとされ
特別な精薬の材料となる"
What is crucial to note here is that this fate commanding light is used to craft the Amber Draught, which Seluivis intended to use to rob Ranni of her Free Will and turn her into a puppet. The draughts crafted from starlight can directly interfere with free will because the stars they come from govern fate itself. This is not an attribute directly ascribed to any of the meteors or shooting stars, even on Radahn's Heirloom he crushes a meteor, and then seals the movement of the stars, halting fate.
"Large hat with the movements of the stars drawn on the inside of
the brim. Worn by the magic preceptors who served the Carian
royals.
Glintstone sorcerers are the descendants of astrologers, a fact
that the Carians remain aware of. Even if their fate has been
long severed from the stars."
"鍔の内に、星の運行が描かれた大帽子
カーリア王家に仕える、魔術教授の装束"
The Preceptor's Big Hat is inscribed with the movements of stars, there is no use if "Furu Hoshi" or "Ryūsei" in this description, similar to the Eclipse Crest Greatshield Referencing the Sun. We can clearly see each star illustrated as a stereotypical "balls of fire" depiction, and these same stars are directly connected to Fate. I have seen some argue these are depictions of planets, however Planets are only mentioned one time that I am aware of, as a rumor of where Queen Marika's people the Numen came from at the character selection. This instance uses the term "異界" / Ikai which allegedly can be translated as "Another World" but also has other possible translations such as "Next World"
As mentioned, the Astrologers predate the Glintstone Sorcerers and read fate in the stars until this was interrupted.
Telescope
"Astrology tool used by members of the Carian royal family.
A stolen part of a larger instrument.
Allows the viewer to better see faraway things.
During the age of the Erdtree, Carian astrology withered on the vine.
The fate once writ in the night skies had been fettered by the
Golden Order."
Astrologer's Set
"Hood fashioned from supple cloth. Worn by those who look to the cosmos above.
They read fate in the stars, and are said to be heirs of the glintstone sorcerers.
But alas, the night sky no longer cradles fate. "
"柔らかな布で作られたフード
星を見上げる者たちの装束
彼らは、星に運命を見出そうした
輝石の魔術師の末裔であるという
だが今や、運命は夜空にはない"
Once again, no use of "Furu Hoshi" or "Ryusei" to be found. These are traditional stars being referred to. Radahn's conflict with the stars is the only time we have any actual events referred to as interfering with fate and halting the movements of stars, so we can conclude it was his actions that resulted in this (why he did this is a far more complex and vague topic that I won't delve into here, because as a character he is a deliberate mess of contradictions and ambiguity). We need look no further than what the night sky actually looks like in Elden Ring to determine what the Astrologer's were basing their predictions upon.
It would be incredulous at best to suggest these were all meteors based on the terminology and previously established information above, however, we can go further. We must go further.
III. Sellen, Iji, and the "Flowing Stars" / 流れる星 (Nagareru Hoshi)
This is by far the most important section, and the one that took the longest amount of time to comprehend (but may have been more obvious had I been a native speaker, as you will soon be able to understand).
Both Sellen and Iji, who have crucial ties to Raya Lucaria and the Carians respectively (i.e. they are knowledgable people when it comes to the stars and their related practices) have unique dialogue about Radahn that only they use.
War Counsellor Iji
"Jerren. Now, that's a name I haven't heard for a while.
Before taking up the banner of General Radahn, he was a guest of the Carian royal family.
An expert swordsman, to be sure, but ever the eccentric.
No surprise he'd get wrapped up in some festival.
Oh, no, wait...
How did I not see it before!
I ought to retire as war counsellor for such a gross oversight!
Let me explain. The fate of the Carian royal family is guided by the stars.
As is the fate of Lady Ranni, first heir in the Carian royal line.
But General Radahn is the conqueror of the stars.
Who stood up to the swirling constellations, halting their movement in a smashing victory.
And so, if General Radahn were defeated, the stars would once again resume their movement.
As would Lady Ranni's destiny.
Perhaps, even, revealing the elusive path. That leads to Nokron."
"
…ジェーレンとは、また懐かしい名前ですな
彼は、ラダーン将軍の麾下に参じる前は、カーリア王家の客人だったのですよ
…優れた剣士でしたが、奇矯でもありました
祭りなど、如何にも彼らしい…
…いえ、待ってください…
…ああ、そういうことでしたか！
軍師イジーとしたことが、こんなことを見落としていたとは！
貴公、よく聞いてください。カーリア王家の運命は、星によって動きます
カーリア王家正統の王女たるラニ様の、運命もまた同じはずです
そして、将軍ラダーンは星砕きの英雄
かつて流れる星に立ち向かい、打ち砕いたとき、星の動きは封じられた…
であれば、将軍ラダーンが死するとき、星はまた動き出します
きっとラニ様の運命も
そうすれば、あるいは現れるかもしれません。ノクローンに至る道が "
Iji uses the term "Nagareru Hoshi" / 流れる星 translated in English as "swirling constellations"
Sellen also uses the same curious term.
Sorceress Sellen
"
Hmm? What's on your mind?
Well, well...
Seluvis is not a name I ever wanted to hear again...
But, fine. If it will help you, my apprentice, I offer my knowledge.
The stars alter the fate of the Carian royal family. And the fate of your mistress, Ranni.
But long ago, General Radahn challenged the swirling constellations, and in a crushing victory, arrested their cycles.
Now, he is the force that repulses the stars.
If General Radahn were to die, the stars would resume their movement.
And so, too, would Ranni's destiny. "
"
…ほう、これは…
セルブスとは、嫌な名前を思い出させてくれるものだ
…だが、よかろう。それがお前の助けになるのなら、知りたいことを教えてやろう
カーリア王家の運命は、星によって動く。お前の仕える、ラニの運命も同じことだ
だが、かつて将軍ラダーンが流れる星に立ち向かい、打ち砕いたとき、星の動きは封じられた
…あの男は、星の封印なのさ"
Sellen also uses "Nagareru Hoshi" which was translated as "swirling constellations". These are the only two times the word "constellation" is used in the english dialogue, and also the only time "Nagareru Hoshi" is used in the game itself to my knowledge.
This confused me for many reasons, the main one being that I don't speak Japanese and sometimes this term is conflated with a completely different term "Nagarehoshi/Nagareboshi" which does mean "Falling Star". But it didn't make sense to me that only these two examples were localized so consistently in this way. After some digging thankfully, I discovered this term was actually used somewhere else...in Elden Ring's very first trailer.
Thankfully, it turns out an english speaker who was familiar with Japanese translated the Japanese subtitles included with the trailer, and this proved to be extremely enlightening for me, so huge shout out to this guy for his efforts.
Relevant to this thread
Now, he notes that despite being at an intermediate level with Japanese, this term confused him a lot. It seems to be fairly uncommon. Thankfully, a Japanese local actually provides us more information later in the same thread.
This term is, definitively, not referring to shooting stars. It is used to refer to the Elden Ring's ability to "command the stars" as well as Radahn's intervention of the Stars' power over fate. It now makes more sense why the localization team went with "swirling constellations" so consistently, because this was a clearer way to illustrate that Sellen and Iji are not referring to shooting stars when they speak of Radahn's seal/"repulsing the stars" (Eng)
(Note: A similar term is used also in cut dialogue from Enia where she says the Elden Ring "commanded the stars", it isn't written the exact same way, but it does keep the "flowing" terminology/nagare intact and does not use any synonyms for falling stars)
In light of the overall story this also makes a great deal of sense. Ranni's entire goal is to leave the world and go into the space, to the stars, and the image we see from her patron Dark Moon showcases distinct star clusters and galaxies.
This is what Radahn was preventing her from having access to. The Dark Moon even shows up in his Phase 2 of the caelid boss fight as if to verify he's dead for itself so that its chosen Ranni can continue her fated path.
IV. Conclusion + Addressing Common Criticisms
With the information above, I believe we can very conclusively determine that Radahn interfered with both meteors and actual stars, and the terminology used in the Japanese source material actually helps separate the two even clearer than the localization does. Due to the controversy of this interpretation around the internet I wanted to end this by addressing common points made against the characters in the setting affecting real celestial bodies.
The "Stars" are just Aliens like Astel and the Fallingstar Beasts
I don't think this has any merit for two main reasons. The Astels are specifically "malformed stars" while the Fallingstar Beasts have "falling star" in their name in both english and japanese, but most importantly neither have any connection to Fate within the storyline, which is an important aspect the True Stars do. I'm hard pressed to find anything conflating the meteors in general with fate, the only item that mentions both together I'm aware of is Radahn's Heirloom, but it's still clear he crushed meteors and sealed the movements of the stars, and Sellen and Iji have highlighted that this was not just falling stars.
Radahn's Magic does not scale to anyone else
Radahn's specific spell "Collapsing Stars" (actually called "Hoshikudaki" in JP, the same as his Starscourge/Starcrusher title) is directly noted, in his only canon line in the entire game, to be the spell that marked his awareness of being able to face down the stars. He uses this spell against the player, it's a common technique of his. If he is able to halt meteors and stars, then using the same technique on us and us being able to survive that is a noteworthy feat of strength. It is impossible for this not to scale to the player, and requires large assumptions in order to keep it from scaling to Malenia and Morgott as well.
The people of the Land's Between do not have an accurate understanding of space, they are using these terms incorrectly, based in Medieval cosmology
Completely contradicted by the entire practice of Primeval Sorcery which involves looking directly into space at real celestial phenomena, the Japanese terms actually very clearly separated meteors and comets from actual stars, and we have numerous instances of Spherical Planet depictions, Blasphemous Scepter has a round earth, the Carian Study Hall features what is called a "Celestial Globe" by a spirit, and Gideon Ofnir's staff even has an image of an entire galaxy on it. These characters are far more aware of the universe than they are given credit for.
This display would be far too inconsistent with the other feats in the series, so it must have been relegated to meteors
There are too many contradictions in the lore for this to be the case regardless of how looks from a "feats" standpoint, however I would argue this is actually not the case and celestial phenomena are not considered impossible to the setting. The Moon has the Elden Ring engraved upon it, the Memory Stone item states it was a fragment from a third Black Moon that once orbited the Lands Between and is currently destroyed with only those shards remaining. Miquella and his followers believed they could create a solar eclipse in order to put Godwyn's soul to rest. The Elden Ring itself manipulates the abstract concepts that make up reality. This taken with the evidence above seems to lay out the game as always intended to be more cosmic in scope, not unlike Bloodborne in that regard.
I may expand this later with other examples (such as Metyr attacking us with a Pulsar and whether or not we can see the background True Stars in Radahn's cutscene moving a bit) but for now I think this covers the most important information.
Of crucial importance to this breakdown will be some Japanese terminology and translations. I am not a Japanese speaker and I welcome anyone fluent to correct me. However I have sourced my interpretations of these terms with explanations from native speakers, which will be included in this thread. To my knowledge the specific terms I will be referencing haven't been covered in regards to scaling yet, so hopefully this information will prove useful.
I. The Starscourge Conflict
Starting at the beginning, I want to go over what the Starscourge Conflict actually entailed.
Raises strength.
The mightiest hero of the demigods confronted the falling stars alone—and thus did he crush them, his conquest sealing the very fate of the stars."
"英雄の伝承が刻まれたタリスマン
筋力を高める
デミゴッドで最も強いとされた英雄は
降る星に一人で挑み、これを砕き
以来、星の運命は封印されたという"
The Starscourge Heirloom plainly lays out that Radahn confronted "Falling Stars" i.e. Meteors, and after crushing them "sealed the fate of the stars". The visual for the Heirloom showcases him staring down at an oncoming meteorite, with a starry sky in the background. The Japanese uses "Furu Hoshi" which as far as I can tell simply means "falling stars". The game in general uses either "Furu Hoshi" or "Ryusei" (流星) for meteor related things. There is established terminology here that denotes what type of celestial object is being referred to.
And from the Starscourge Sword Monument
Official English Translation said:
Japanese Text said:
"In the Battle of the Starcrusher, Radahn serves as Sallia’s protector, stands alone against the stars, and crushes them."
(Lokey's translation here )^
The monument is far less specific about the conflict involving only falling stars, in both English, Japanese, and a second independent translation.
I next want to examine the terminology behind the items and spells in the game that directly reference meteors as opposed to gas based stars as we understand them.
that derive from the Erdtree.
Creates a stream of golden shooting stars that assail the area.
It is said that long ago, the Greater Will sent a golden star
bearing a beast into the Lands Between, which would later
become the Elden Ring."
"最古とされる黄金樹の祈祷
「伝説の祈祷」のひとつ
無数の黄金の流星を生じ、周囲を攻撃する
かつて、大いなる意志は
黄金の流星と共に、一匹の獣を狭間に送り
それが、エルデンリングになったという"
This spell is often brought up as an example of stars in Elden Ring not being "real stars" however from the description mentioning shooting stars, even in the localization we can see something is amiss. The Japanese text actually specifically uses "流星" / Ryūsei/ Meteor/ Shooting Star. The Elden Beast was always meant to have arrived on a meteor. The Gravity Fan and Gravity Stone Chunk consumable items notably use "隕石" Inseki for Meteorite, while the Fallingstar Beasts are called "降る星の獣" which uses "Furu Hoshi" similar to the Starscourge Heirloom.
Numerous Glintstone and even Primeval Current Sorceries actually include "Ryūsei" in the Japanese spell names, which means many of them being localized as "Stars" and thus discrediting the notion of "real stars" in Elden Ring has actually always been a misunderstanding. These spells were always specifically meant to refer to meteors and shooting stars. Examples below
Stars of Ruin / 滅びの流星 (Horobi no Ryūsei)
Glintstone Stars / 輝石の流星 (Kiseki no Ryūsei)
Star Shower / 流星群 (Ryūseigun)
As we can see above these spells were always meant to involve shooting stars. With that covered, I want to next speak about when the game refers to real stars i.e. those unrelated to the "Ryūsei" or "Furu Hoshi" terminology. There are several concrete examples, but the most important of them is the Eclipse Crest Greatshield
The eclipsed sun, drained of color, is the protective star of soulless demigods. It aids the mausoleum knights by keeping Destined Death at bay."
"蝕の太陽が描かれた、金属の大盾
首のない、霊廟騎士たちの得物
蝕まれ、色を失くした太陽は
魂無きデミゴッドの守護星であり
彼らを、運命の死から遠ざけるという"
The sun is referred to as the "Protective star" / 守護星 (Shugo Hoshi) of the Soulless Demigods. This is not conflated with meteors per the terminology used consistently in the previous examples, and given a real sun is observed in the game, there aren't any grounds to assume the two behave similarly.
Other items also reference specific stars.
Black Leather Shield
"Roundshield covered in black leather. On the larger side for a medium-sized shield.
From the north, this shield depicts the polar star in rivets of gold. The inside is lined with fur, protecting the carrier from frost."
"黒革張りの円盾
中盾としては、大きい部類
金の鋲で極星が描かれた北方の盾
毛皮の裏張りは、冷気を防ぐ"
The standard terms for meteors and shooting stars are not found here, when they were consistently used elsewhere. Comets are also consistently referred to with "Suisei" / 彗星 (eg Comet Azur is 彗星アズール) so it should not be confused with those either. Real stars play heavily into the next section as well.
II. The Night Sky No Longer Cradles Fate
Of crucial importance in separating real stars from other celestial phenomena in Elden Ring is their connection to Fate. We established previously that Radahn sealed fate, and there is more context to examine to explain exactly what this entails.
Starlight Shards / 星光の欠片 (Seikō no Kakera) refer to, quite literally, the light emitted by the stars. The Amber version elaborates further about the standard stars guding the fate of man, and Amber hued stars guding those of the gods.
Amber Starlight / 琥珀の星光 (Kohaku no Seikō)
"
An ephemeral sliver that gives off a pale amber glow.
What remains of a passing flash of starlight.
If the stars command our fates, then amber-hued stars must command the fates of the gods.
Such is the belief that inspired the use of these shards to prepare a most special draught.
Cannot be consumed by mere humans. "
"
琥珀色に輝く、儚い細片
束の間に流れた星光の残滓
星光が運命を司るとすれば
琥珀色のそれは、神々の運命であるとされ
特別な精薬の材料となる"
What is crucial to note here is that this fate commanding light is used to craft the Amber Draught, which Seluivis intended to use to rob Ranni of her Free Will and turn her into a puppet. The draughts crafted from starlight can directly interfere with free will because the stars they come from govern fate itself. This is not an attribute directly ascribed to any of the meteors or shooting stars, even on Radahn's Heirloom he crushes a meteor, and then seals the movement of the stars, halting fate.
the brim. Worn by the magic preceptors who served the Carian
royals.
Glintstone sorcerers are the descendants of astrologers, a fact
that the Carians remain aware of. Even if their fate has been
long severed from the stars."
"鍔の内に、星の運行が描かれた大帽子
カーリア王家に仕える、魔術教授の装束"
The Preceptor's Big Hat is inscribed with the movements of stars, there is no use if "Furu Hoshi" or "Ryūsei" in this description, similar to the Eclipse Crest Greatshield Referencing the Sun. We can clearly see each star illustrated as a stereotypical "balls of fire" depiction, and these same stars are directly connected to Fate. I have seen some argue these are depictions of planets, however Planets are only mentioned one time that I am aware of, as a rumor of where Queen Marika's people the Numen came from at the character selection. This instance uses the term "異界" / Ikai which allegedly can be translated as "Another World" but also has other possible translations such as "Next World"
As mentioned, the Astrologers predate the Glintstone Sorcerers and read fate in the stars until this was interrupted.
Telescope
"Astrology tool used by members of the Carian royal family.
A stolen part of a larger instrument.
Allows the viewer to better see faraway things.
During the age of the Erdtree, Carian astrology withered on the vine.
The fate once writ in the night skies had been fettered by the
Golden Order."
Astrologer's Set
"Hood fashioned from supple cloth. Worn by those who look to the cosmos above.
They read fate in the stars, and are said to be heirs of the glintstone sorcerers.
But alas, the night sky no longer cradles fate. "
"柔らかな布で作られたフード
星を見上げる者たちの装束
彼らは、星に運命を見出そうした
輝石の魔術師の末裔であるという
だが今や、運命は夜空にはない"
Once again, no use of "Furu Hoshi" or "Ryusei" to be found. These are traditional stars being referred to. Radahn's conflict with the stars is the only time we have any actual events referred to as interfering with fate and halting the movements of stars, so we can conclude it was his actions that resulted in this (why he did this is a far more complex and vague topic that I won't delve into here, because as a character he is a deliberate mess of contradictions and ambiguity). We need look no further than what the night sky actually looks like in Elden Ring to determine what the Astrologer's were basing their predictions upon.
It would be incredulous at best to suggest these were all meteors based on the terminology and previously established information above, however, we can go further. We must go further.
III. Sellen, Iji, and the "Flowing Stars" / 流れる星 (Nagareru Hoshi)
This is by far the most important section, and the one that took the longest amount of time to comprehend (but may have been more obvious had I been a native speaker, as you will soon be able to understand).
Both Sellen and Iji, who have crucial ties to Raya Lucaria and the Carians respectively (i.e. they are knowledgable people when it comes to the stars and their related practices) have unique dialogue about Radahn that only they use.
War Counsellor Iji
"Jerren. Now, that's a name I haven't heard for a while.
Before taking up the banner of General Radahn, he was a guest of the Carian royal family.
An expert swordsman, to be sure, but ever the eccentric.
No surprise he'd get wrapped up in some festival.
Oh, no, wait...
How did I not see it before!
I ought to retire as war counsellor for such a gross oversight!
Let me explain. The fate of the Carian royal family is guided by the stars.
As is the fate of Lady Ranni, first heir in the Carian royal line.
But General Radahn is the conqueror of the stars.
Who stood up to the swirling constellations, halting their movement in a smashing victory.
And so, if General Radahn were defeated, the stars would once again resume their movement.
As would Lady Ranni's destiny.
Perhaps, even, revealing the elusive path. That leads to Nokron."
"
…ジェーレンとは、また懐かしい名前ですな
彼は、ラダーン将軍の麾下に参じる前は、カーリア王家の客人だったのですよ
…優れた剣士でしたが、奇矯でもありました
祭りなど、如何にも彼らしい…
…いえ、待ってください…
…ああ、そういうことでしたか！
軍師イジーとしたことが、こんなことを見落としていたとは！
貴公、よく聞いてください。カーリア王家の運命は、星によって動きます
カーリア王家正統の王女たるラニ様の、運命もまた同じはずです
そして、将軍ラダーンは星砕きの英雄
かつて流れる星に立ち向かい、打ち砕いたとき、星の動きは封じられた…
であれば、将軍ラダーンが死するとき、星はまた動き出します
きっとラニ様の運命も
そうすれば、あるいは現れるかもしれません。ノクローンに至る道が "
Iji uses the term "Nagareru Hoshi" / 流れる星 translated in English as "swirling constellations"
Sellen also uses the same curious term.
Sorceress Sellen
"
Hmm? What's on your mind?
Well, well...
Seluvis is not a name I ever wanted to hear again...
But, fine. If it will help you, my apprentice, I offer my knowledge.
The stars alter the fate of the Carian royal family. And the fate of your mistress, Ranni.
But long ago, General Radahn challenged the swirling constellations, and in a crushing victory, arrested their cycles.
Now, he is the force that repulses the stars.
If General Radahn were to die, the stars would resume their movement.
And so, too, would Ranni's destiny. "
"
…ほう、これは…
セルブスとは、嫌な名前を思い出させてくれるものだ
…だが、よかろう。それがお前の助けになるのなら、知りたいことを教えてやろう
カーリア王家の運命は、星によって動く。お前の仕える、ラニの運命も同じことだ
だが、かつて将軍ラダーンが流れる星に立ち向かい、打ち砕いたとき、星の動きは封じられた
…あの男は、星の封印なのさ"
Sellen also uses "Nagareru Hoshi" which was translated as "swirling constellations". These are the only two times the word "constellation" is used in the english dialogue, and also the only time "Nagareru Hoshi" is used in the game itself to my knowledge.
This confused me for many reasons, the main one being that I don't speak Japanese and sometimes this term is conflated with a completely different term "Nagarehoshi/Nagareboshi" which does mean "Falling Star". But it didn't make sense to me that only these two examples were localized so consistently in this way. After some digging thankfully, I discovered this term was actually used somewhere else...in Elden Ring's very first trailer.
Thankfully, it turns out an english speaker who was familiar with Japanese translated the Japanese subtitles included with the trailer, and this proved to be extremely enlightening for me, so huge shout out to this guy for his efforts.
Relevant to this thread
Now, he notes that despite being at an intermediate level with Japanese, this term confused him a lot. It seems to be fairly uncommon. Thankfully, a Japanese local actually provides us more information later in the same thread.
This term is, definitively, not referring to shooting stars. It is used to refer to the Elden Ring's ability to "command the stars" as well as Radahn's intervention of the Stars' power over fate. It now makes more sense why the localization team went with "swirling constellations" so consistently, because this was a clearer way to illustrate that Sellen and Iji are not referring to shooting stars when they speak of Radahn's seal/"repulsing the stars" (Eng)
(Note: A similar term is used also in cut dialogue from Enia where she says the Elden Ring "commanded the stars", it isn't written the exact same way, but it does keep the "flowing" terminology/nagare intact and does not use any synonyms for falling stars)
Enia cut dialogue said:
In light of the overall story this also makes a great deal of sense. Ranni's entire goal is to leave the world and go into the space, to the stars, and the image we see from her patron Dark Moon showcases distinct star clusters and galaxies.
This is what Radahn was preventing her from having access to. The Dark Moon even shows up in his Phase 2 of the caelid boss fight as if to verify he's dead for itself so that its chosen Ranni can continue her fated path.
IV. Conclusion + Addressing Common Criticisms
With the information above, I believe we can very conclusively determine that Radahn interfered with both meteors and actual stars, and the terminology used in the Japanese source material actually helps separate the two even clearer than the localization does. Due to the controversy of this interpretation around the internet I wanted to end this by addressing common points made against the characters in the setting affecting real celestial bodies.
The "Stars" are just Aliens like Astel and the Fallingstar Beasts
I don't think this has any merit for two main reasons. The Astels are specifically "malformed stars" while the Fallingstar Beasts have "falling star" in their name in both english and japanese, but most importantly neither have any connection to Fate within the storyline, which is an important aspect the True Stars do. I'm hard pressed to find anything conflating the meteors in general with fate, the only item that mentions both together I'm aware of is Radahn's Heirloom, but it's still clear he crushed meteors and sealed the movements of the stars, and Sellen and Iji have highlighted that this was not just falling stars.
Radahn's Magic does not scale to anyone else
Radahn's specific spell "Collapsing Stars" (actually called "Hoshikudaki" in JP, the same as his Starscourge/Starcrusher title) is directly noted, in his only canon line in the entire game, to be the spell that marked his awareness of being able to face down the stars. He uses this spell against the player, it's a common technique of his. If he is able to halt meteors and stars, then using the same technique on us and us being able to survive that is a noteworthy feat of strength. It is impossible for this not to scale to the player, and requires large assumptions in order to keep it from scaling to Malenia and Morgott as well.
The people of the Land's Between do not have an accurate understanding of space, they are using these terms incorrectly, based in Medieval cosmology
Completely contradicted by the entire practice of Primeval Sorcery which involves looking directly into space at real celestial phenomena, the Japanese terms actually very clearly separated meteors and comets from actual stars, and we have numerous instances of Spherical Planet depictions, Blasphemous Scepter has a round earth, the Carian Study Hall features what is called a "Celestial Globe" by a spirit, and Gideon Ofnir's staff even has an image of an entire galaxy on it. These characters are far more aware of the universe than they are given credit for.
This display would be far too inconsistent with the other feats in the series, so it must have been relegated to meteors
There are too many contradictions in the lore for this to be the case regardless of how looks from a "feats" standpoint, however I would argue this is actually not the case and celestial phenomena are not considered impossible to the setting. The Moon has the Elden Ring engraved upon it, the Memory Stone item states it was a fragment from a third Black Moon that once orbited the Lands Between and is currently destroyed with only those shards remaining. Miquella and his followers believed they could create a solar eclipse in order to put Godwyn's soul to rest. The Elden Ring itself manipulates the abstract concepts that make up reality. This taken with the evidence above seems to lay out the game as always intended to be more cosmic in scope, not unlike Bloodborne in that regard.
I may expand this later with other examples (such as Metyr attacking us with a Pulsar and whether or not we can see the background True Stars in Radahn's cutscene moving a bit) but for now I think this covers the most important information.
Last edited:
