Transformers feats/discussion

[grillmaster]

cybertronian technology

 

[Optimus Prime 654]

unspace is outside of the multiverse and "ordered mathematics are nonsense" in it but I don't know that it really scales to anybody besides the top tiers as the bits of Unspace utilized in Transformers technology are done in such a way that they basically have no clue what they're doing and largely only use it for FTL travel and occasionally time travel. Unicron's the only character who's ever shown any serious understanding of it as far as I know

ic, also how was the Cloud world scaling post

 

[Optimus Prime 654]

unspace is outside of the multiverse and "ordered mathematics are nonsense" in it but I don't know that it really scales to anybody besides the top tiers as the bits of Unspace utilized in Transformers technology are done in such a way that they basically have no clue what they're doing and largely only use it for FTL travel and occasionally time travel. Unicron's the only character who's ever shown any serious understanding of it as far as I know

i yea i forgot to reply smth here. In infestations 2, Lovecraft did stated the Unspace was beyond space and time and according to some text sources, the Transwarp Space technically is above actual reality.

If higher mathematics are nonsense and lacks spacetime, that just means the Transwarp space might actually be Low Outerversal via being beyond dimensions.

 

[Kighter]

Transformers (2023) #15 feat.

 

[Thirteen prime]

 

[OtherGalaxy]

if only someone had put together a comprehensive breakdown of everything relevant to the cosmology in basically the entire runtime of the franchise


if only

 

[Optimus Prime 654]

@OtherGalaxy If the Unicron who sensed Vector died to the Matrix, would it mean the Matrix is above AVP Vector or smth

 

[OtherGalaxy]

@OtherGalaxy If the Unicron who sensed Vector died to the Matrix, would it mean the Matrix is above AVP Vector or smth

nah, it was just a Unicron from a 1986 movie adjacent timeline. I don't know why sensing the timeline was being manipulated would mean anything for strength beyond general cosmic awareness. Also iirc in Echoes and Fragments it's specific different Vector avatars at work like Vec-Tor his GoBots avatar

 

[Optimus Prime 654]

nah, it was just a Unicron from a 1986 movie adjacent timeline. I don't know why sensing the timeline was being manipulated would mean anything for strength beyond general cosmic awareness. Also iirc in Echoes and Fragments it's specific different Vector avatars at work like Vec-Tor his GoBots avatar

ic, but the matrix can still kill his physical form who is like superior than the star saber or smth

 

[OtherGalaxy]

ic, but the matrix can still kill his physical form who is like superior than the star saber or smth

that isn't really how singularities have been shown to work, Unicron isn't equally strong from incarnation to incarnation, his instances all have very different feats. They're just bodies he uses, some are stronger and more hax than others, additional context notwithstanding like him being weaker during Universe. It's how it goes for every singularity eg look at how much weaker Bayformers Fallen is than something like Galaxy Force Vector Prime, even though both are connected to their cosmic wider entities

For example in the Armada comics Unicron survives a shot (though it knocked him into another timeline) that was allegedly universal in power and in Balancing Act he was erasing galaxies just by existing. But other versions of him haven't shown any of these traits and while that's halfway just story convenience/inconsistency it's always good to refer back to Forest Lee's quote on how they work because it's the cleanest explanation we have

The complex nature of the multiverse demands much from singular creatures like the Fallen, Primus, Unicron, the 13, etc. These beings are of a fundamentally different nature from regular individuals, who are repeated endlessly throughout the infinite variation of creation. They must be designed or evolved to deal with certain situations that would drive lesser beings mad.
First of all, time flows differently from dimension to dimension. By necessity, this makes it possible for creatures like the Fallen to appear to exist in two places at the same time. Second, whole new universes are spawned every moment by the resolution of quantum uncertainty. Most of these universes are dead ends that exist for only a few seconds or minutes at most, and encompass only a few critical moments. Therefore, at certain critical junctures, the Fallen becomes a quantum event, experiencing two or more possible outcomes at once, until one of those outcomes proves to be a dead end and collapses. The Fallen then reverts back to the "real" universe. Every story has dozens or hundreds of endings we never see. But the Fallen sees them.
One of the side effects of the Fallen's quantum nature is that his appearance changes slightly from dimension to dimension, based on the expectations of others, and the unique history he has (or has not) established in a particular dimension. He is also bound by the "rules" (gravity, magnetism, etc.) of any dimension in which appears – many of which rules he may have actually helped shape when the multiverse was young. So if time flows backwards in a certain dimension, he is bound to live and experience – forgetting as he goes along – everything backwards.
Smart and savvy dimensional travelers spend time in reverse timescale dimensions, slow-time dimensions, or dimensions in which time does not move at all. This ensures that even if they are "killed," they continue to exist. As you can see, the idea of sequential experience as you and I understand it is pretty meaningless to guys like the Fallen. He does experience all these things, but his mind operates on a higher order so all of this stuff totally makes sense to him.

Mostly the bold

No I'm not saying the 13 are sub-universal or anything like that and we know they observe things from outside time, but the main takeaway here is when a singularity has a part of itself in a given universe that on average they are going to change with it. I wouldn't assume this is how their 'true' forms work or anything like that, but it's why I don't scale from one of their bodies to the next super often. Movie timeline Unicrons tend to be closer to the planet level benchmark. Comic versions can be star level to much higher (the Vok were predicting even a sealed Unicron would destroy every single plane of existence), and manga/anime timeline Unicrons also have a wide range of showings.

They're all parts of the bigger whole but what one does isn't necessarily relevant to another, partially because of different writers but you can also use the "different histories" thing Lee mentions to explain it. In Sunbow Unicron was made by a space monkey despite Reaching the Omega Point somehow establishing this as still an example of the "Real" Unicron. It's just how it goes.

tl;dr no reason to scale the Matrix as it appears in Echoes and Fragments to the Star Saber and killing a body of Unicron has to be judged on a case by case basis.

 

[Claudio Swiss]

 

[Optimus Prime 654]

that isn't really how singularities have been shown to work, Unicron isn't equally strong from incarnation to incarnation, his instances all have very different feats. They're just bodies he uses, some are stronger and more hax than others, additional context notwithstanding like him being weaker during Universe. It's how it goes for every singularity eg look at how much weaker Bayformers Fallen is than something like Galaxy Force Vector Prime, even though both are connected to their cosmic wider entities

For example in the Armada comics Unicron survives a shot (though it knocked him into another timeline) that was allegedly universal in power and in Balancing Act he was erasing galaxies just by existing. But other versions of him haven't shown any of these traits and while that's halfway just story convenience/inconsistency it's always good to refer back to Forest Lee's quote on how they work because it's the cleanest explanation we have



Mostly the bold

No I'm not saying the 13 are sub-universal or anything like that and we know they observe things from outside time, but the main takeaway here is when a singularity has a part of itself in a given universe that on average they are going to change with it. I wouldn't assume this is how their 'true' forms work or anything like that, but it's why I don't scale from one of their bodies to the next super often. Movie timeline Unicrons tend to be closer to the planet level benchmark. Comic versions can be star level to much higher (the Vok were predicting even a sealed Unicron would destroy every single plane of existence), and manga/anime timeline Unicrons also have a wide range of showings.

They're all parts of the bigger whole but what one does isn't necessarily relevant to another, partially because of different writers but you can also use the "different histories" thing Lee mentions to explain it. In Sunbow Unicron was made by a space monkey despite Reaching the Omega Point somehow establishing this as still an example of the "Real" Unicron. It's just how it goes.

tl;dr no reason to scale the Matrix as it appears in Echoes and Fragments to the Star Saber and killing a body of Unicron has to be judged on a case by case basis.

I wasn't inherently referring to that matrix lol. Yea I know avatars vary from universes since different universes, different laws. The Matrix technically does temporarily disable him (unless if there is a way it can affect his true form), making one of his physical bodies being destroyed since in Legacy of Unicron when Unicron's true form tries eating the Matrix, if he ever ate it that would make his physical forms implode because of course he is too powerful at the Astral Plane and thats the whole point for Primus imprisoning Unicron in physical form. I think that would also make sense for the matrix's scaling since consistently and narratively, the matrix was unicron's weakness.

I know the Matrix can't actually kill his Anti-Spark, but it can no matter what erase a form of him. Thats the whole reason for why it can "disable" him as if the matrix ever touches his true form, it erases his physical forms completely.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

I wasn't inherently referring to that matrix lol. Yea I know avatars vary from universes since different universes, different laws. The Matrix technically does temporarily disable him (unless if there is a way it can affect his true form), making one of his physical bodies being destroyed since in Legacy of Unicron when Unicron's true form tries eating the Matrix, if he ever ate it that would make his physical forms implode because of course he is too powerful at the Astral Plane and thats the whole point for Primus imprisoning Unicron in physical form. I think that would also make sense for the matrix's scaling since consistently and narratively, the matrix was unicron's weakness.

I know the Matrix can't actually kill his Anti-Spark, but it can no matter what erase a form of him. Thats the whole reason for why it can "disable" him as if the matrix ever touches his true form, it erases his physical forms completely.

I get that but I don't see it as justification to scale it to the Star Saber in any way, the Star Saber even has a Matrix as just one piece of it anyways, but it's a very specifically multiversal artifact while most Matrices aren't and can't really do anything on that level. Even in the manga it took multiple Silver Matrixes in addition to Golden Power to create something capable of combining the different timelines together, and those were far stronger than the average Matrix is shown to be.
Matrices themselves behave very randomly see: Armada Matrix stopping a planetbuster but Optimus having to die to manage that. I don't think it's something that can be linearly applied because it has a kind of kryptonite affect on his bodies.

 

[Optimus Prime 654]

I get that but I don't see it as justification to scale it to the Star Saber in any way, the Star Saber even has a Matrix as just one piece of it anyways, but it's a very specifically multiversal artifact while most Matrices aren't and can't really do anything on that level. Even in the manga it took multiple Silver Matrixes in addition to Golden Power to create something capable of combining the different timelines together, and those were far stronger than the average Matrix is shown to be.
Matrices themselves behave very randomly see: Armada Matrix stopping a planetbuster but Optimus having to die to manage that. I don't think it's something that can be linearly applied because it has a kind of kryptonite affect on his bodies.

I mean wasn't it shown in Nexus Prime comic arc and some AvP quotes saying one of Unicron's physical forms can bypass the Star Saber

 

[OtherGalaxy]

I mean wasn't it shown in Nexus Prime comic arc and some AvP quotes saying one of Unicron's physical forms can bypass the Star Saber

AVP just said that the Star Saber was used against Unicron during the 13's battles, we don't get a lot of detail beyond it telling us that Unicron is stronger than it, but it's not like we can suddenly say something like "Armada Comics Unicron scales up from it" or something based on that. Don't recall Nexus' arc really touching on its relation to Unicron though

 

[Optimus Prime 654]

AVP just said that the Star Saber was used against Unicron during the 13's battles, we don't get a lot of detail beyond it telling us that Unicron is stronger than it, but it's not like we can suddenly say something like "Armada Comics Unicron scales up from it" or something based on that. Don't recall Nexus' arc really touching on its relation to Unicron though

alr thx for the evaluation. I might reread Nexus Prime's comic arc again to update you.

 

[Thirteen prime]

I get that but I don't see it as justification to scale it to the Star Saber in any way, the Star Saber even has a Matrix as just one piece of it anyways, but it's a very specifically multiversal artifact while most Matrices aren't and can't really do anything on that level. Even in the manga it took multiple Silver Matrixes in addition to Golden Power to create something capable of combining the different timelines together, and those were far stronger than the average Matrix is shown to be.
Matrices themselves behave very randomly see: Armada Matrix stopping a planetbuster but Optimus having to die to manage that. I don't think it's something that can be linearly applied because it has a kind of kryptonite affect on his bodies.

by the way, isn't it possible to scale the mental and spiritual capabilities of unicron from the unicron trilogies to Doomstone, which has the power to destroy the afterlife of any kind, which is a collection of souls and the collective unconscious of all beings, for unicron this artifact is literally less than food.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

Here's the AVP quote for reference though

Q: Dear Vector Prime,

Did the Vok hide the Origin Matrix on prehistoric Earth of Primax -408.24 Epsilon?
.
.
A: Dear Artifact Annalist,

If you are familiar with the Origin Matrix, you know that it was once the hilt piece on the "Star Saber" - A sword carried by fellow member of the Thirteen, Prima. The great hero hefted the truly fearsome weapon in our conflicts against our foe, the Dark God Unicron.However, its power soon drew the attention of Megatronus' desires and his jealousy coerced him to move against his brothers and sisters of the Thirteen. To prevent the conflict from escalating into a civil war, Solus Prime lifted her mighty Forge and smashed the blade into five pieces. Our brother Nexus Prime, master of combination that he is, then volunteered to split into his individual components and spread the fragments across the Multiverse in hopes that Megatronus could never find them.

The Origin Matrix, the most powerful of the fragments, was sent to the distant, "prehistoric" as you put it, past. It landed on the Earth of Primax -408.24 Epsilon and I initiated a temporal barrier... A time lock, so to speak. The artifact could not leave that particular era in time, and no travelers could venture backwards to access it either. Consequently, this is the reason that the Vok were chosen as the Origin Matrix's guardians. They had already taken residence on the ancient Earth to conduct one of their experiments.

When the Terminus Blade, another of our relics, ripped a hole between universes, it destabilized the time lock. At that moment, a lane of travel was opened and the Origin Matrix was at risk. To prevent it from falling into the hands of evil, the Thirteen asked of the TransTech to send their greatest tracker to procure the artifact.

I can now sense the Matrix in the present. On the Cybertron of Primax -408.24 Epsilon. What's more, it will soon not be alone...

It's mainly great because it shoots down the common downplay of people trying to scale the Star Saber above Unicron and Primus lol.

What's interesting is in this origin, Solus smashes the Star Saber to prevent war among the 13, kind of the opposite of what happened in Aligned.

FWIW the Origin matrix is stated to be the strongest part of the Star Saber howevrer

 

[OtherGalaxy]

by the way, isn't it possible to scale the mental and spiritual capabilities of unicron from the unicron trilogies to Doomstone, which has the power to destroy the afterlife of any kind, which is a collection of souls and the collective unconscious of all beings, for unicron this artifact is literally less than food.

yes+he also had a pretty good mindfuck feat from Armada where he trapped an entire population or something from what @grillmaster was telling me, I believe it's in this thread but I'd have to look around

 

[Thirteen prime]

Here's the AVP quote for reference though


It's mainly great because it shoots down the common downplay of people trying to scale the Star Saber above Unicron and Primus lol.

What's interesting is in this origin, Solus smashes the Star Saber to prevent war among the 13, kind of the opposite of what happened in Aligned.

FWIW the Origin matrix is stated to be the strongest part of the Star Saber howevrer

Which, being only a fragment of the star sword, can still close the hole in the space-time continuum, which caused the rupture and erasure of planets and even affected the multiverse.