I don't think 02 powercreep makes THAT much difference in this match-up TBF. The biggest would probably be Greymon maybe getting the Devimon country level scaling while Base Jin is comparable to characters who can take devil lasers and not die.
Don't worry I had no intention of even bringing it up, technically YOU mentioned it.
The Meramon feat was in Adventure 01 if you talk about Meramon drying all the Southeast of Asia.
In 02, mainly it was that Greymon's line overtook Angemon's line (or at least MetalGreymon and WarGreymon did) and therefore they became far stronger, like now WarGreymon was fighting evenly with an opponent who easily overwhelmed HolyAngemon earlier. Also that BlackWarGreymon who fought WarGreymon was definitely more powerful than the one who fought HolyAngemon since he was more experienced then.
I don't think it is a matter of Greymon overtaking Angemon's line so much that Angemon fought much more diverse assortment of digimon in 02, than he did in adventure 01 Angemon had much more limited number of fights most of which where against Dark type digimon which he is notably strong against so it makes him appear much more powerful than he is we rarely got to see him fight digimon he's neutral against.
Except that this idea is completely dismantled by the fact that Angewomon, a Perfect level with the same benefits of being strong against dark Digimon, is NOT ONLY handily defeated by Piemon no different to any other Perfect level but is consistently defeated by a dark Digimon of equal level to her (ie LadyDevimon). She outright admits she can't beat LadyDevimon 1v1 in 02.
Mugendramon devolved WarGreymon with a simple claw swipe and left a mark on his face as Koromon where he hit him, where Piemon needed repeated special attacks just to break his armour.
This is simply not true.
Again this is simply not true as I have just explained.
Imperiladramon FM EASILY overpowered BlackWarGreymon (when he pulled him up into the sky to have the three way clash) who is already demonstrably stronger than the Dark Masters given HolyAngemon, who easily overpowered and even outright blitzed Piemon at one point, could do very little against him.
She defeats Vamdemon by making him completely vulnerable by using her heaven's charm to paralyze him,
This isn't actually what happened
In what reality is Archnemon/Mummymon High tier ? What feats caused you to come to this conclusion ?
A piedmon who had just finished fighting Wargreymon and Metalgarurumon and was notably battle weary, Piedmon by the time he fought Holyangemon wasn't at his best, HolyAngemon didn't even solo fight him the instant he created some distance proceeded to heal the others, Piedmon is also stronger than Blackwargreymon based on their respective reactions to heaven's gate, Blackwargreymon was being pulled into it, while piedmon was able to completely ignore its effects until he was knocked into it by the combined powers of both wargreymon and Metalgarurumon.
Yes she did do that, meanwhile Angemon dropped his ass to a knee with a single attack by himself.
He fired one attack at her then basically sat back and watched. She also dodged an attack from Andromon, another Digimon that would go on to give a good fight to her boss Piemon who casually one-shotted Angewomon when he couldn't do the same to Angemon, so that doesn't really mean a whole lot.
She shouldn't even have needed help if the type advantage is as extreme as you're trying to claim for Angemon, that's the point I'm making. We see Angemon drop an even stronger Digimon on his ass while Angewomon is consistently flung around by her like a rag doll 1v1.
Yes notice how it took two other Adventure Perfects arriving to drive her off while Angewomon was once again, being flung around by her hair and being consistently overpowered.
Angewomon was not mentioned in the subtitiles of the version I recently watched (only that she needed help) and it's not like it matters either way, because again LadyDevimon has consistently proven herself superior to Angewomon 1v1 while Silphymon and her fought for HOURS.
Just go into the quote box and hit ENTER between paragraphs/chunks you want to quote.
He's not trying to kill them, which honestly only makes him look better in this instance since he arguably isn't even going all out as is the case in 90% of fights in 02 unless they're fighting Dark Tower Digimon and the like, which makes the scaling even more awkward.
Completely in line with Greymon generally being a tank and harming Megadramon by EoS in the first Season. He's able to HURT perfects, just not seriously.
Yes Greymon was just tanking, that's all he could do, he would have lost to either one on their own.
Yes that's what Taichi SAYS, what we actually saw was Angemon being overwhelmed by NUMBERS, not level. Greymon was overwhelmed was level sure, but Angemon definitely wasn't.
LadyDevimon also has an ability that makes her more powerful, the stronger her opponent us according to her profile, and Ladydevimon is the only dark type digimon Angewomon ever has the opportunity to fight other than Vamdemon, who as I mention was completely helpless against her heaven's charm, VenomVamdemon and Piedmon.
The fight in 02 is literally Ladydevimon 1 shots Aquilamon, grabs Angewomon's hair, Angewomon slaps her, ladydevimon slaps her back then the gang arrive and Ladydevimon flees
Thanks greatly appreciated
He was beating Bigmamemon easily on his own though, and Mamemon was basically a joke he was defeated by the French girl's Kiwimon and when he was attacking Greymon he was doing absolutely no damage. Only BigMamemon, Metalmamemon and Giromon where actually threats to either.
They said what I said word for word here are the screen shots of the episode
Yes that's an attack called Poison and we never see her use it so it played NO role in any of her fights with Angewomon.
But she still needed the power of all the other Perfects + Angemon to kill him. Hell Angemon needed the same thing to take out Devimon (although that was all the adults power combined).
Yes but Angemon clearly got stronger at a faster rate given his better feats later.
He was not "fucking around", we actually see him panicked when he counters Angemon and he needed to both rebound Angemon's own attack back at him AND hit him with NOT one, but TWO bursts of the same attack that destroyed WarGreymon's armour.
Which in itself says a lot about how strong LadyDevimon is for a Perfect level anyway, because Knightmon couldn't one-shot Aquilamon.
And then we see LadyDevimon fight for HOURS against Silphymon who is MUCH stronger than Angewomon (and admittedly holding back 'cause she one-shots LadyDevimon at the end, but still the fact she struggled to subdue LadyDevimon says a lot).
You're welcome.
He hit him once and it did basically nothing (which is notable considering a weaker Greymon fucked Megadramon's Eye up with the same attack) so was he though?
Because Greymon's a tank, it would have taken a lot of whittling down but Greymon would have gone down to either one. I don't remember Kiwimon doing anything until the Perfects came out which is probably just to make it seem like she actually did something.
Yes but in the episode (and in profiles) it's emphasized how much stronger MetalMamemon and therefore Giromon who showed parity with him, are than the other two.
Yes I know what they said but again, what we SEE (at least on Angemon's end) doesn't really line up with the statement as he's blatantly overwhelmed by numbers more than by level or rather power. I'm not disputing they needed the Perfect forms, just that Greymon performed "as well" as Angemon.
That's fair my bad
I'm talking more about her heaven's charm effectiveness on Vamdemon, without it I'm doubtful she could have landed the all our powers combined attack (I'm not using the all powers combined feat just the charm) and as you brought up both can do a similar thing anyway just Angewomon's version isn't a suicide attack.
I'm not saying he isn't strong I'm just pointing out he isn't that far above his peers when fighting none dark type digimon I have bought up several instances of when facing neutral typed opposition he's still impressive but not massively more so, such as Ikkakumon being better against marine Devimon, or Birdramon getting to briefly overpower Mugendramon.Both of these are unusual necessitates if ones making the case that the type advantage and the type advantage ALONE is the ONLY reason they outperform their peers, it's like that advantage ONLY gets them so far and there's more to it than that.
Piedmon was smiling and laughing when he was attacking Angemon with his trump swords, he only got serious after Angemon knocked him down, at which point Piedmon effectively one shot him.
I agree LadyDevimon is a very powerful Digimon she's probably the 4th strongest perfect in adventure, only Vamdemon, Skullsatamon and Holyangemon outright beat her, without PIS/CIS.
I mean until Giro showed up neither where under much threat, Greymon easily dispatched Bigmamemon, both where only put on the backfoot when Giromon intervened. I feel we can both agree that Mamemon was effectively a joke digimon despite being a perfect similar to how Numemon and sukamon are for adults. So effectively it was Greymon vs BigMamemon and Angemon vs MetalMamemon and both where winning those respective fights.
I mean the same thing happened in the original series too sometimes, they evolved into Garudamon and Weregarumon vs Tuskmon and Snimon which was probably unnecessary but they wanted to end the battle as fast as possibleYes I know what they said but again, what we SEE (at least on Angemon's end) doesn't really line up with the statement as he's blatantly overwhelmed by numbers more than by level or rather power. I'm not disputing they needed the Perfect forms, just that Greymon performed as well as Angemon.
You also have to remember this happens during a mini-arc where it was a clear aim to show off the 01 Perfect forms again, weather they needed them or not. I doubt they really needed WereGarurumon against a Minotaurmon and a Dokugamon (I believe?) in Mexico when individual Armor Digimon have one-shotted both those Digimon previously and they had Stingmon there It was just done to see WereGarurumon again.
So there's definitely also an element of "because the plot demands it" in terms of them having to use Perfect Forms. Though I do find it pretty telling that the group with Angemon in it was the only one where they felt the opponents had to be MULTIPLE PERFECT level Digimon to justify that.
Birdramon holding back Mugendramon is a straight up outlier TBF given he'd just overpowered the obviously stronger Andromon.
In fairness he's basically always smiling and laughing. He also didn't one shot him, it took two hits + Angemon's own reflected back at him and Angemon still got back up.
All of the Jogress Perfects are stronger than her as well.
Yes BUT Miyako specifically tells Silphymon NOT to hurt/kill LadyDevimon before the fight starts, so she wasn't going all out at any point during this fight until right at the end. This is why, after she DOES kill LadyDevimon she has to justify herself to Miyako based on her being in danger. As i said earlier, the 02 kids Digimon explicitly hold back when fighting real Digimon outside of very rare instances.
No that actually WAS necessary, Tuskmon swatted Garurumon aside like he was nothing in their previous encounter and even after evolving, Snimon knocked Garudamon into a wall. Tuskmon and Snimon were legitimate power-houses who warranted it.
Birdramon could just be physically strong enough to move Mugendramon, just because she can briefly overpower him physically doesn't mean she is as powerful as him. Karbuterimon in a previous episode was able to stop the 1000+ ton top of Tokyo tower from falling down.
After getting knocked over the only attack he did was deflecting Heaven's Knuckle back on Angemon which took him out, until he Super evolved into Magnangemon. Piedmon wasn't smiling or laughing when he knocked on his arse, or when Metalgarurumon and Wargreymon where overwhelming him.
I personally disagree, I feel you overate the strength of the Jogress digimon based on their actual visual feats, In addition the instant Angewomon was back on the table Syphymon was never in consideration, sylphymon was only utilised when Angewomon was unavailable. (same applies to shakkoumon with Magnangemon)
Miyako: You're just going to stop them right ? It isn't gonna be like the last time (is what she said) though it is heavily implied she doesn't want them to kill her I will give you that, but even still LadyDevimon won the fight still.
She didn't knock him into a wall solo, Blackwargreymon was being attacked by a large force of marine Digimon including Ikkakumon and Megaseadramon, before the marine digimon attacked Blackwargreymon completely no sold Angemon + Phaildramon + Sylphymon attacking him simultaneously.
Marinedevimon isn't skullsatamon's peer in combat prowess, Skullsatamon was by far the strongest out of Daemon's minions Marinedevimon had to flee from Zudomon who floored him effortlessly, and ladydevimon was worried about fighting multi-perfects simultaneously.
They evolved because of the urgency of the situation Vamdemon had just captured Hikari, and before that Phantomon was threating to kill Yamato.
I wouldn't have brought this up anyway since he was under the control of a dark ring at the time, and dark ring/spiral/gear provides a weaker Digimon an alternate win condition. I mean Karbuterimon wouldn't have beat Andromon 1 v 1 without that alternate win condition.
I mean sure, we also have Birdramon holding up a passenger plane in an earlier episode as well.
Oh I do understand this is a thing. Another example is Garurumon having exceptional speed and abandoning a little of that for more raw power as WereGarurumon.
Could simply be MarinDevimon was surprised by it, similar to how Giant Devimon flinches from the Adult attacks when caught off guard but otherwise completely no-sells them. It doesn't really make sense for Ikkakumon to do damage when Zudomon couldn't do anything significant.
Uh no, he used his attack to reflect Angemon's back, which made Angemon stagger back a bit then hit him AGAIN to knock him off the building, but we still see Angemon get back up before he evolves.
Yes, he ONLY stops laughing or smiling once he's actually losing and then he starts acting out of desperation.
Because they wanted to show off the 01 Perfects while they still had the chance to, not necessarily because they are superior or even on par with the Jogress Perfects.
Yet Silphymon was fine to fight against Daemon almost immediately after this and it was only really when LadyDevimon had a hostage that she really had the upper hand. The fact is the second Silphymon decided to end her, she died...with the same attack Silphymon had been using the entire time.
Watching 01 at the moment, his attack power is actually consistently lower than the rest of the 01 Adults, balanced by the fact they lock on and can tag fast opponents generally speaking.
Yeah I don't know what I was smoking saying that, still a very top tier Perfect along with LadyDevimon minimum though.
Shakkoumon, just like Silphymon was actively trying to subdue MarineDevimon without killing him (again the 02 Digimon are pretty much ALWAYS trying to do this if it's not a Dark Tower Digimon). He ends the fight the moment MarineDevimon gets too close to destroying the hospital and killing all the patients
They didn't and pretty couldn't win UNTIL they evolved though, which was my point. There's a reason when they see them again, they just IMMEDIATELY evolve and take them out, and it STILL took them long enough for the rest of the kids to make it to the top of the TV station where Vamdemon was.
True but I was just explaining that wasn't really the case with Holsmon vs Snimon, the Armors and 02 Adults are pretty consistently at the very top of Adult, if not Bottom of Perfect Tier by feats depending how far into the season we're talking.
Nah I'm willing to concede that I'm probably giving the End of 02 versions of the non-Angemon 01 Adults less credit than they deserve but I'd still maintain that them closing the gap is more due to 02's rather blatant power creep as opposed to Angemon being at their level to start with.
