Caster Artoria (Fate) vs Doctor Strange (MCU)

[Friday.]

This just goes back to the Death of the Author debate

The MCU movies are clearly going off the “Wolverine and Spider-Man are faster than Hulk, Thanos, Thor, etc” thing the comics always state and show, but the OBD disagrees with those and chalks them off as PIS

Substantiate this claim because this interpretation is contradicted by decades of feats showing, proving, and explicitly showcasing how this is absolutely not the case.

I mean, Stan Lee believes that power scaling is irrelevant and doesn't matter despite it being a key factor in almost every story he's ever been a part of.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Substantiate this claim because this interpretation is contradicted by decades of feats showing, proving, and explicitly showcasing how this is absolutely not the case.

I mean, Stan Lee believes that power scaling is irrelevant and doesn't matter despite it being a key factor in almost every story he's ever been a part of.

Correction, Stan Lee only believes that Power Scaling is irrelevant in the use of asking an AUTHOR who would win between characters.
He still unironically used power scaling in justifying why Spider-Man can defeat Galactus, it's just pointless to ask authors that since they can give any justifiable reason why X can defeat Y.

 

[Friday.]

Correction, Stan Lee only believes that Power Scaling is irrelevant in the use of asking an AUTHOR who would win between characters.
He still unironically used power scaling in justifying why Spider-Man can defeat Galactus, it's just pointless to ask authors that since they can give any justifiable reason why X can defeat Y.

Not really, it's a meaningless distinction since if you actually pull up the quote;

"The question Im always asked is who would win in a fight. Who would win in a fight if Galactus fight the Hulk, or if Thor fought Iron Man. And theres one answer to all of that, its so simple, anyone should know this...

The person who would win in a fight is the person the WRITER wants to win!!! If I want to have astory about the Thing from Fantastic Four, and he gets into a BIG fight with Spiderman. People are gonna ask 'well who would win?'. Well that depends on who I WANT to win. If I want Spiderman to win, he'll win. If I want the Thing to win, he'll win.

He doesn't make the distinction between asking an author who would win, and who would actually win in a story, the outcome is ultimately decided by what the author believes is the best course of action for the issue. So, we can't say what he does or doesn't believe, the guy was just fed up.

Regardless, it's a tangential point, I don't think we really disagree.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Like the difference between the writer and the author is a distinction without a difference, I get the point you are making but I am ultimately just pointing out like you did is that it's a tangential point at the end of the day as yes, the writer can choose who wins regardless and why.

But Stan Lee only said that because people asked him, a writer, who would win between his properties. That's a completely different than from it being something else altogether but at that point we are just going all over the place.
To actually get to your real point:

Substantiate this claim because this interpretation is contradicted by decades of feats showing, proving, and explicitly showcasing how this is absolutely not the case.

Like I get what you are saying here and yea the MCU is inconsistent as hell but we at the OBD don't really factor in major consistency because if we did, most series would be pretty shit.
The main reason why Nygma and Sky are saying what they are is due to the MCU's highest points still being there and still being able to be scaled to Strange.

Like if we went in your way, Castoria would be weak as shit herself and I'm not doing that. Carol Danvers refueled a dying star and wasn't tired, Thor handled the heat, radiation and otherwise of a Star for Stormbreaker and a whole bunch of bullshit otherwise.
We go with the low ends that Thor can't deal with The Weakass Hulk and many, many other things and we would be here all year downgrading entire franchises to fit the same view.

 

[Friday.]

Like the difference between the writer and the author is a distinction without a difference, I get the point you are making but I am ultimately just pointing out like you did is that it's a tangential point at the end of the day as yes, the writer can choose who wins regardless and why.

So we don't disagree, the context of question is irrelevant since if you watch the video of him actually talking about this, the guy is pissed, and doesn't even reference what he was originally asked, but goes on a rant about how it's stupid to ask authors about a characters power level, especially in his neck of the woods where there are thousands of different writers and editors all with different opinions and interpretations, directions they think their story should go. (Look at George Perez who definitely had influence on the books he illustrated) for.

I won't derail the thread but, yeah, tangential.

 

[NostalgiaFan]

This just goes back to the Death of the Author debate

The MCU movies are clearly going off the “Wolverine and Spider-Man are faster than Hulk, Thanos, Thor, etc” thing the comics always state and show, but the OBD disagrees with those and chalks them off as PIS

Because they are PIS since they are always shown being slower and caught by characters far slower than Thanos and Thor and stated and shown to only be street level and never MFTL, in comparison to the characters moronic modern day writers claim are slower yet consistently always shown to be MTFL and always reacting and moving at said speeds when not being brought down by the jobber aura of Street level characters like Spidey and Logan.

 

[Solar Sailor]

This just goes back to the Death of the Author debate

The MCU movies are clearly going off the “Wolverine and Spider-Man are faster than Hulk, Thanos, Thor, etc” thing the comics always state and show, but the OBD disagrees with those and chalks them off as PIS

Spider-Man is routinely depicted to only be a tier below Hulk, Thor and The Thing in terms of power

At least in classic Marvel.

And its not “the obd disagrees”, its that the comics are not consistent at all half the time—as well as having multiple instances that state characters like Hulk and Thor deliberately hold back as stated by Cho and other people

So no, OBD taking the characters at their word and
having a more holistic stance on these character’s capabilites isn’t the same as that strawman you keep dredging up

We don't separate combat and travel speed around here. If you can dodge stars and planets while crossing the cosmos, you can dodge punches from MFTL attacks.

Thing is, even if it were the case that she can’t throw a punch at the same speed that she can fly

We’ve still seen her using her “travel speed” in combat by using herself as an energy cannonball and tackling space ships and Thanos himself. That’s still “combat speed” regardless so it doesn’t really matter in this case.

 

[Edward Nygma]

Thing is, even if it were the case that she can’t throw a punch at the same speed that she can fly

That logics, I guess. shrug

It doesn't seem aligns with our current definition of "combat speed fallacy", but that definition is mad old.

Combat Speed Fallacy

Outskirts Battledome Wiki, the biggest source for cross-fiction battles on the web.

outskirtsbattledomewiki.com

I misread the shit out of that quote. My bad. I'm gonna blame the weed.

 

[Friday.]

I'm gonna blame the weed.

Brother...

Me too man, me too.

 

[Darth Nihilus]

That logics, I guess. shrug

It doesn't seem aligns with our current definition of "combat speed fallacy", but that definition is mad old.

Combat Speed Fallacy

Outskirts Battledome Wiki, the biggest source for cross-fiction battles on the web.

outskirtsbattledomewiki.com

I misread the shit out of that quote. My bad. I'm gonna blame the weed.

Well riddle me this

 

[Solar Sailor]

That logics, I guess. shrug

It doesn't seem aligns with our current definition of "combat speed fallacy", but that definition is mad old.

Combat Speed Fallacy

Outskirts Battledome Wiki, the biggest source for cross-fiction battles on the web.

outskirtsbattledomewiki.com

I misread the shit out of that quote. My bad. I'm gonna blame the weed.

Damn I won without even replying that’s awesome. I deserve this badge

 

[Edward Nygma]

Well riddle me this

If there is a joke or riddle here, beyond a reference to my name, I'm too high to get it. This feels on-brand for me.

Artoria is rel to FTL

If she's only FTL

Chiron's NP is casually a trillion times FTL.

In the game clip, it takes about 3.3 seconds for the attack to reach Earth from a star in the Sagittarius constellation. The arrowhead of Sagittarius is Alnasl. It is 106 light years away. 106 ly = 1.003e18 meters

1.003e18 meters / 3.3 = 3.0393939e17 m/s, or ~1.01 trillion times FTL.

I'm no expert on post-Solomon FGO content, but I'm guessing that Chiron, despite being a powerful servant from the Age of Gods, isn't on Castoria's level. This is 90% vibes, 10% that being connected to the creation of the Holy Sword feels like a big deal.

Excalibur is on par with things like Wukong's Ruyi Jingu Bang and the Lion King's Rhongomyniad. Both of those are literally responsible for, like, pinning reality to the Earth or some shit.

His Noble Phantasm is Ruyi Jingu Bang (如意金箍棒?). Before Wukong turned the Ruyi Jingu Bang into a weapon, it was a pillar holding together the bottom of the ocean. It's an item originally made to give form to what is vague. A Noble Phantasm that held a Texture in place, just like the Holy Spear Rhongomyniad. The area hit by the staff has the space around it fixed in place by Wukong's Authority, creating a solid block of air that pins the opponent in place.[2]

Rhongomyniad: The Lance That Shines to the End of the World (最果てにて輝ける槍ロンゴミニアド, Saihate nite Kagayakeru YariRongominiado?) is the Holy Lance of King Arthur.[1][2][4] An anchor of storm that fastens the planet together.[1][2] A Divine Construct armament.[1] Rhongomyniad is regarded as the "spear of the end", the light of destruction coming down from the heavens,[5] whose power is said to rival the Holy Sword.[6]

Scaling to any portion of this feels like the kind of thing that would put a Heroic Spirit a little closer to the scope and power of a lower tier Divine Spirit. Especially when it takes a Divine Spirit of Ozymandius' caliber 10 hits to break through a set of walls forged from the Holy Sword's light. Nitocris' NP also cracked under the pressure of an attack from Rhongomyniad, iirc.

Moreover, Goddess Rhongomyniad can further protect her fortress by activating walls made out of the same light as Excalibur.[20] Thanks to these walls of magical energy, not even Ozymandias' Dendera Electric Bulb is able to reach inside the city, forcing the Sun King to transform half his Spirit Origin into magical energy to shoot his ultra-long-range divine punishment nine times more in order to break through them.[12]

A trillion times FTL is the absolute peak of the MCU's current speed scale. Something I wouldn't initially assume this Strange scales to.

That said...Base Strange was able to keep pace with a 3/4-ish complete Strange Supreme. Fully formed Strange Supreme is capable of going 1v1 with Infinity Ultron, the source of that trillion times FTL number.

Mjolnir also keeps being not out of place in new material, retroactively up-scaling a bunch of stuff. Thor catches Zeus' lightning bolt from maybe 20 yards away, and then later pilots it to the edge of the universe in a matter of minutes. Yet neither Mjolnir nor Jane are never at a unique speed disadvantage. Valk, Gorr, Thor, and Thor are perfectly capable of keeping pace with eachother.

And nothing would imply that Mjolnir, or Jane's version of Thor, should be stronger or faster than Avengers 1 or 2 Thor. Mjolnir is broken and speeding up Jane's impending death. It would make way more sense that Mjolnir has just always been post-Endgame level in the speed department, right? I mean, with What If establishing that Thor 1 Thor was casually MFTL (he legit fought Carol for fun), it isn't absurd to think that he/it could be seriously faster.

If Strange is slower, he doesn't have a lot of options for autonomous defense. As a weird echo/memory, TOA was able to do actual magic. And Stephen can do just enough in the astral plane to allow himself to be seen in the physical plane. If Stephen can do enough magic as a spirit to activate the Time Stone, then he might be able to save himself, at least once. Even if Artoria completely deletes Strange in one go, she's not deleting an Infinity Stone.

As for putting down someone outside of his power level...I guess, the time stone is probably the only possible win-con in his arsenal. Universal time manipulation should be comparable to True Magic. Something even Artoria's chonky Magic Resistance can't completely negate.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Chiron's NP is casually a trillion times FTL.

In the game clip, it takes about 3.3 seconds for the attack to reach Earth from a star in the Sagittarius constellation. The arrowhead of Sagittarius is Alnasl. It is 106 light years away. 106 ly = 1.003e18 meters

1.003e18 meters / 3.3 = 3.0393939e17 m/s, or ~1.01 trillion times FTL.

I'm no expert on post-Solomon FGO content, but I'm guessing that Chiron, despite being a powerful servant from the Age of Gods, isn't on Castoria's level. This is 90% vibes, 10% that being connected to the creation of the Holy Sword feels like a big deal.

Excalibur is on par with things like Wukong's Ruyi Jingu Bang and the Lion King's Rhongomyniad. Both of those are literally responsible for, like, pinning reality to the Earth or some shit.

While Chiron's NP does go that fast, Servants themselves can only move at Relavistic/Lightspeed without burning themselves to shit due to their Saint Graphs not being able to handle it. So no one scales to that NP in speed or otherwise.

But they can react to FTL attacks of given magnitudes(Though considering how fast Chaos' attack was, it's hard to tell how far it goes as it would be MFTL or atleast x20+ FTL at bare minimum).

 

[Edward Nygma]

While Chiron's NP does go that fast, Servants themselves can only move at Relavistic/Lightspeed without burning themselves to shit due to their Saint Graphs not being able to handle it. So no one scales to that NP in speed or otherwise.

Do we not take servant skills as valid sources of stats and scaling?

Cu's Protection from Arrows is stated in lore to let him visually track any projectile, even Noble Phantasms.

This is a power Cú Chulainn was born with. It's said that it's possible for him to avoid any long range attack if he has made visual confirmation of his opponent, tracking down ranged weapons with his eyes and defend against them. He can deal with most projectiles even in conditions where the opponent cannot be visually seen. As long as the attack is a thrown type, he can avoid even Noble Phantasms, but he can't gain the effects of this protection with respect to wide range attack types where the attack range of the weapon explodes on impact, or a direct attack by a weapon that has simply long reach.[1]

You can create this clash in FGO, and Cu will evade the NP. That said, for the sake of simplified gameplay, it offers him protection from anything that doesn't bypass protection (sure-hit, ignore invincible).

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Do we not take servant skills as valid sources of stats and scaling?

Cu's Protection from Arrows is stated in lore to let him visually track any projectile, even Noble Phantasms.



You can create this clash in FGO, and Cu will evade the NP. That said, for the sake of simplified gameplay, it offers him protection from anything that doesn't bypass protection (sure-hit, ignore invincible).

There are limits to what he can use that for, he's not canonically blocking Tametomo's Noble Phantasm no matter how the latter's worked nor can he block something like Balmung, Excalibur or otherwise.

 

[Edward Nygma]

There are limits to what he can use that for, he's not canonically blocking Tametomo's Noble Phantasm no matter how the latter's worked nor can he block something like Balmung, Excalibur or otherwise.

Oh. I wasn't advocating for FGO's mechanical use of the ability. Obviously a lot of the attacks he can "evade" in-game don't work with the actual lore of his ability. The wiki quote I posted earlier even mentions that it doesn't work against projectiles that explode on contact.

PfA is all about him being able to track and dodge things flying through the air. Even in the game, plenty of servants have skills or NPs that apply sure-hit or ignore invincible, nullifying the defense entirely. Any other servant can equip a Craft Essence to do the same. His skill obviously has mechanical and canonical limits.

I only brought up the mechanics for transparency's sake. Didn't want it to look like I was hiding something I knew contradicts the lore to some degree. Plus, I do think seeing such abilities function in the game does add some merit to the initial lore. Even if it does come with an asterisk or two.

All of that said...Chiron's NP lore may be a perfect counter. It gets worse in FGO, as it strips DEF buffs (including evade).

It manifests as a sniping Noble Phantasm that "shoots a shining star", based on Chiron being said to have attained the ultimate shot an Archer can reach by piercing a star.[1][2] It is a conceptual materialization of the constellation, but it is not limited to being activated when the constellation appears in the sky.[2] It is not a shot fired from his bow, but a star that shoots a "comet shot", possessing a tracking ability to hit its target

Still...we have ranked-down servants like Shirou's Saber using Luck and Instincts to dodge conceptually unavoidable attacks from the NPs of demi gods and True Magic-adjacent sword strikes. Feels weird that the breaking point would be that something is just really fast.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Oh. I wasn't advocating for FGO's mechanical use of the ability. Obviously a lot of the attacks he can "evade" in-game don't work with the actual lore of his ability. The wiki quote I posted earlier even mentions that it doesn't work against projectiles that explode on contact.

PfA is all about him being able to track and dodge things flying through the air. Even in the game, plenty of servants have skills or NPs that apply sure-hit or ignore invincible, nullifying the defense entirely. Any other servant can equip a Craft Essence to do the same. His skill obviously has mechanical and canonical limits.

I only brought up the mechanics for transparency's sake. Didn't want it to look like I was hiding something I knew contradicts the lore to some degree. Plus, I do think seeing such abilities function in the game does add some merit to the initial lore. Even if it does come with an asterisk or two.

All of that said...Chiron's NP lore may be a perfect counter. It gets worse in FGO, as it strips DEF buffs (including evade).



Still...we have ranked-down servants like Shirou's Saber using Luck and Instincts to dodge conceptually unavoidable attacks from the NPs of demi gods and True Magic-adjacent sword strikes. Feels weird that the breaking point would be that something is just really fast.

The big thing with Chiron's NP is that for all of it's speed, it's damage overall... is pretty meh.
It's biggest point is that Chiron has no tell when he's using it(FGO only has him do it because it would look like a Year One NP otherwise), he can use it whenever as long as it's night time(Though his living self used it in Daytime in Atlantis so who the fuck knows anymore) and it can wreck a weaker Servant even with it's splash radius.

It's actually more to Luck to dodge it than anything else.