T-Pein™
The Nexus
Unranked games are second class.
Aint nobody wanna play that.
i'll have magic check all my setups so if town have any complains after getting rekt they can direct it to him
Big Man is the best checker imho
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Mafia General Discussion: Ultra's Crucifixion
- Thread starter Sigismund
- Start date
- Status
Unranked games are second class.
Aint nobody wanna play that.
Big Man is the best checker imho
T-Pein™
The Nexus
The Deeptechs of Mafia are what fascinate me the most. To it belongs the concept of "Mountainous Mafia".
Mafia is a deductive game and to the concept of deduction belongs the concept of "chances" and "averaging". This enables mafia/werewolf to be actually a mathematic game.
In the very late 90s with the rise of mafia in forums, the concept of "Vanilla Mafia", shortly after "Mountainous Mafia" got brought to life. The concept of playing with no powerroles and only sociopsychological skills. The balance got playtested and measured by the fact that a group of people need an average of 3 or 4 attempts in order to figure out who the wolves are. This maths were thought to believed correct, but they were if it were a real group of people comming eye to eye. Players figured out early on, that the 3-attempts rule does not apply to mafia. Based on Adam Ries, if you take away a natural number from a scale, you receive actually a second scale, the substraction. The concept has been applied to mafia since you lack the physical measurement in order to add this to your deduction to make a 3-attempt rule sufficient. As of that the "Rule of 5" got implemented into mafia and since then became the most standard measurement in mafia.
The rule of 5 says that not more than 5 attempts will be given to bring the game into a solveable state and that the most efficient way of playing is in fact the way of using the said window to the fullest and play accordingly to it.
The mountainous mafia game originally had 12 players. 2 Goons and 10 Vanilla Townies. In order to reach parity town has lose 4 attempts into lynching. And they have the reservation of having one correct attempt or the optionality to no lynch, in order to reach the fifth attempt. - The winrate of mafia in this game type over time has been analysed to be across 50-60% depending on the culture, experience levels, which back in the days was considered "mathematically correct" based on another concept, "the longest straw".
These maths since then have been deemed as "circular" for balancement. Which tries to achieve a circular distribution of game setups in order to reach a 50% win chance for both factions. Much to it, a player named Werebear figured out that, this very concept is not properly stimulating the high draft of town in the playerbase. Only with the know-how you were to reach equal standings between town and mafia, and as that; a type of inflation came to be (META), that made the mountainous setup way too easy to play. As that MafiaScum, the oldest remnant of the 90s era decided to implement the 13-players-cap-rule in order to help town in mountainous games. The 2 mafia versus 11 town mountainous setup has been created and since 2002, has been the standard adopted by forums worldwide. Almost as if it came naturally to be, following the Golden Ratio of chances (70% winrate for uninformed majority).
With just this one numerological change, town is now capable to reach the fifth attempt with no single no lynch.
11
FA1: 9
FA2: 7
FA3: 5
FA4: 3
FA stands for Failed Attempt, aka a mislynch and successful Faction Kill.
With 4 failed attempts town reaches 3 players, receiving the free fifth attempt to solve the game.
Andrew Plotkins dubbed this concept to be "even" and as that "Evenly Balanced Games" came to existence.
Those games are mathematically "polygonal" and if you have an even cornered polygon and draw lines connecting opposing corners, all lines will cross the center and always reach the fifth attempt.
The maths suddenly make a huge disproportional change when the number of goons would become 3. 3 Goons would naturally demand 12 vanilla town as opposition, in order to reach the fifth attempt:
12
FA1: 10
FA2: 8
FA3: 6
FA4: 4
4 Vanilla Townies face 3 Goons in the fifth attempt.
Based on this we can deduct the formula to be:
T=W+8+1
T= Number of Vanilla Town
W = Number of Wolves
8 = Fixed Mountainous Attempt Factor
+1 = Fifth Attempt Factor
Up today, this formula is still used, also outside of mountainous games, by replacing the factors and changing numbers accordingly.
T=W+AF+FAF
In the situation where a Vigilante is present in the game, the shots of the vigilante and additional amount of vanillas to compensate for the fixed attempt factor, you can determine them by the Fixed Attempt Factor. A Vigilante should never have more shots than wolves available, and for each killed wolf the Fixed Attempt Factor would count -2.
VS=W*0.75
where as the new AF formula would become:
AF=8-(VS*0.75)
T=W+AF+FAF+VS
So, for example when having 4 wolves and a vig with 3 shots you would:
T=4+(8-(3*0.75))+1+3
T=4+(8-2.25)+4
T=8+5.75=13.75 -> 14 additional townies
As that the setup would result as in follows:
4 goons
14 vanilla
1 3-shot Vigilante
15
FA1: 12
FA2: 9
FA3: 6
FA4: 4
This setup is circular and demands townies to vote no lynch in order to reach the fifth attempt. Hence with vig shots you might
consider to increase the Fifth Attempt Factor to 2.
This is a natural occurence as another killer is present in the game and this could theoretically be done in every game, where you could implement a "Fixed Fifth Attempt Factor" equaling the amount of nightkillers in the game.
This is just a small slice of the big whole huge assfuck that is waiting for ya'll mafia crackheads to deepdive into.
Also this gives town the golden winrate of 70%, which is the totally optimal winrate for town to have. The winrate is measured on reaching the fifth attempt. You can go back to barely 50% winrate if you remove the fifth attempt, but from a sociopsychological standpoint this would be a bit of disadvantage. The finetuning will come from expertise and cheesyness from players and how carefully you distribute roles.
Every role can have it's own formula that is insertable into the whole formula for additional townies. Formula only applies to additional vanilla townies.
If you want me to write an essay on the concept of "Jobs" and "Skill Measurements" in mafia, I would be ready to do so.
Ai or real?
Kinda crazy times we live in...
Idek anymore
The Deeptechs of Mafia are what fascinate me the most. To it belongs the concept of "Mountainous Mafia".
Mafia is a deductive game and to the concept of deduction belongs the concept of "chances" and "averaging". This enables mafia/werewolf to be actually a mathematic game.
In the very late 90s with the rise of mafia in forums, the concept of "Vanilla Mafia", shortly after "Mountainous Mafia" got brought to life. The concept of playing with no powerroles and only sociopsychological skills. The balance got playtested and measured by the fact that a group of people need an average of 3 or 4 attempts in order to figure out who the wolves are. This maths were thought to believed correct, but they were if it were a real group of people comming eye to eye. Players figured out early on, that the 3-attempts rule does not apply to mafia. Based on Adam Ries, if you take away a natural number from a scale, you receive actually a second scale, the substraction. The concept has been applied to mafia since you lack the physical measurement in order to add this to your deduction to make a 3-attempt rule sufficient. As of that the "Rule of 5" got implemented into mafia and since then became the most standard measurement in mafia.
The rule of 5 says that not more than 5 attempts will be given to bring the game into a solveable state and that the most efficient way of playing is in fact the way of using the said window to the fullest and play accordingly to it.
The mountainous mafia game originally had 12 players. 2 Goons and 10 Vanilla Townies. In order to reach parity town has lose 4 attempts into lynching. And they have the reservation of having one correct attempt or the optionality to no lynch, in order to reach the fifth attempt. - The winrate of mafia in this game type over time has been analysed to be across 50-60% depending on the culture, experience levels, which back in the days was considered "mathematically correct" based on another concept, "the longest straw".
These maths since then have been deemed as "circular" for balancement. Which tries to achieve a circular distribution of game setups in order to reach a 50% win chance for both factions. Much to it, a player named Werebear figured out that, this very concept is not properly stimulating the high draft of town in the playerbase. Only with the know-how you were to reach equal standings between town and mafia, and as that; a type of inflation came to be (META), that made the mountainous setup way too easy to play. As that MafiaScum, the oldest remnant of the 90s era decided to implement the 13-players-cap-rule in order to help town in mountainous games. The 2 mafia versus 11 town mountainous setup has been created and since 2002, has been the standard adopted by forums worldwide. Almost as if it came naturally to be, following the Golden Ratio of chances (70% winrate for uninformed majority).
With just this one numerological change, town is now capable to reach the fifth attempt with no single no lynch.
11
FA1: 9
FA2: 7
FA3: 5
FA4: 3
FA stands for Failed Attempt, aka a mislynch and successful Faction Kill.
With 4 failed attempts town reaches 3 players, receiving the free fifth attempt to solve the game.
Andrew Plotkins dubbed this concept to be "even" and as that "Evenly Balanced Games" came to existence.
Those games are mathematically "polygonal" and if you have an even cornered polygon and draw lines connecting opposing corners, all lines will cross the center and always reach the fifth attempt.
The maths suddenly make a huge disproportional change when the number of goons would become 3. 3 Goons would naturally demand 12 vanilla town as opposition, in order to reach the fifth attempt:
12
FA1: 10
FA2: 8
FA3: 6
FA4: 4
4 Vanilla Townies face 3 Goons in the fifth attempt.
Based on this we can deduct the formula to be:
T=W+8+1
T= Number of Vanilla Town
W = Number of Wolves
8 = Fixed Mountainous Attempt Factor
+1 = Fifth Attempt Factor
Up today, this formula is still used, also outside of mountainous games, by replacing the factors and changing numbers accordingly.
T=W+AF+FAF
In the situation where a Vigilante is present in the game, the shots of the vigilante and additional amount of vanillas to compensate for the fixed attempt factor, you can determine them by the Fixed Attempt Factor. A Vigilante should never have more shots than wolves available, and for each killed wolf the Fixed Attempt Factor would count -2.
VS=W*0.75
where as the new AF formula would become:
AF=8-(VS*0.75)
T=W+AF+FAF+VS
So, for example when having 4 wolves and a vig with 3 shots you would:
T=4+(8-(3*0.75))+1+3
T=4+(8-2.25)+4
T=8+5.75=13.75 -> 14 additional townies
As that the setup would result as in follows:
4 goons
14 vanilla
1 3-shot Vigilante
15
FA1: 12
FA2: 9
FA3: 6
FA4: 4
This setup is circular and demands townies to vote no lynch in order to reach the fifth attempt. Hence with vig shots you might
consider to increase the Fifth Attempt Factor to 2.
This is a natural occurence as another killer is present in the game and this could theoretically be done in every game, where you could implement a "Fixed Fifth Attempt Factor" equaling the amount of nightkillers in the game.
This is just a small slice of the big whole huge assfuck that is waiting for ya'll mafia crackheads to deepdive into.
Also this gives town the golden winrate of 70%, which is the totally optimal winrate for town to have. The winrate is measured on reaching the fifth attempt. You can go back to barely 50% winrate if you remove the fifth attempt, but from a sociopsychological standpoint this would be a bit of disadvantage. The finetuning will come from expertise and cheesyness from players and how carefully you distribute roles.
Every role can have it's own formula that is insertable into the whole formula for additional townies. Formula only applies to additional vanilla townies.
If you want me to write an essay on the concept of "Jobs" and "Skill Measurements" in mafia, I would be ready to do so.
More essays
Rej
Preeminent
Sometimes I just read stuff. Sometimes I am just sitting there doing maths, having no clues or perspective with what to do with my life. Like now it's 4 in the morning here and I am bothered with mafia.
Ah, feels like I'm back in the Game Deign course reading this.The Deeptechs of Mafia are what fascinate me the most. To it belongs the concept of "Mountainous Mafia".
Mafia is a deductive game and to the concept of deduction belongs the concept of "chances" and "averaging". This enables mafia/werewolf to be actually a mathematic game.
In the very late 90s with the rise of mafia in forums, the concept of "Vanilla Mafia", shortly after "Mountainous Mafia" got brought to life. The concept of playing with no powerroles and only sociopsychological skills. The balance got playtested and measured by the fact that a group of people need an average of 3 or 4 attempts in order to figure out who the wolves are. This maths were thought to believed correct, but they were if it were a real group of people comming eye to eye. Players figured out early on, that the 3-attempts rule does not apply to mafia. Based on Adam Ries, if you take away a natural number from a scale, you receive actually a second scale, the substraction. The concept has been applied to mafia since you lack the physical measurement in order to add this to your deduction to make a 3-attempt rule sufficient. As of that the "Rule of 5" got implemented into mafia and since then became the most standard measurement in mafia.
The rule of 5 says that not more than 5 attempts will be given to bring the game into a solveable state and that the most efficient way of playing is in fact the way of using the said window to the fullest and play accordingly to it.
The mountainous mafia game originally had 12 players. 2 Goons and 10 Vanilla Townies. In order to reach parity town has lose 4 attempts into lynching. And they have the reservation of having one correct attempt or the optionality to no lynch, in order to reach the fifth attempt. - The winrate of mafia in this game type over time has been analysed to be across 50-60% depending on the culture, experience levels, which back in the days was considered "mathematically correct" based on another concept, "the longest straw".
These maths since then have been deemed as "circular" for balancement. Which tries to achieve a circular distribution of game setups in order to reach a 50% win chance for both factions. Much to it, a player named Werebear figured out that, this very concept is not properly stimulating the high draft of town in the playerbase. Only with the know-how you were to reach equal standings between town and mafia, and as that; a type of inflation came to be (META), that made the mountainous setup way too easy to play. As that MafiaScum, the oldest remnant of the 90s era decided to implement the 13-players-cap-rule in order to help town in mountainous games. The 2 mafia versus 11 town mountainous setup has been created and since 2002, has been the standard adopted by forums worldwide. Almost as if it came naturally to be, following the Golden Ratio of chances (70% winrate for uninformed majority).
With just this one numerological change, town is now capable to reach the fifth attempt with no single no lynch.
11
FA1: 9
FA2: 7
FA3: 5
FA4: 3
FA stands for Failed Attempt, aka a mislynch and successful Faction Kill.
With 4 failed attempts town reaches 3 players, receiving the free fifth attempt to solve the game.
Andrew Plotkins dubbed this concept to be "even" and as that "Evenly Balanced Games" came to existence.
Those games are mathematically "polygonal" and if you have an even cornered polygon and draw lines connecting opposing corners, all lines will cross the center and always reach the fifth attempt.
The maths suddenly make a huge disproportional change when the number of goons would become 3. 3 Goons would naturally demand 12 vanilla town as opposition, in order to reach the fifth attempt:
12
FA1: 10
FA2: 8
FA3: 6
FA4: 4
4 Vanilla Townies face 3 Goons in the fifth attempt.
Based on this we can deduct the formula to be:
T=W+8+1
T= Number of Vanilla Town
W = Number of Wolves
8 = Fixed Mountainous Attempt Factor
+1 = Fifth Attempt Factor
Up today, this formula is still used, also outside of mountainous games, by replacing the factors and changing numbers accordingly.
T=W+AF+FAF
In the situation where a Vigilante is present in the game, the shots of the vigilante and additional amount of vanillas to compensate for the fixed attempt factor, you can determine them by the Fixed Attempt Factor. A Vigilante should never have more shots than wolves available, and for each killed wolf the Fixed Attempt Factor would count -2.
VS=W*0.75
where as the new AF formula would become:
AF=8-(VS*0.75)
T=W+AF+FAF+VS
So, for example when having 4 wolves and a vig with 3 shots you would:
T=4+(8-(3*0.75))+1+3
T=4+(8-2.25)+4
T=8+5.75=13.75 -> 14 additional townies
As that the setup would result as in follows:
4 goons
14 vanilla
1 3-shot Vigilante
15
FA1: 12
FA2: 9
FA3: 6
FA4: 4
This setup is circular and demands townies to vote no lynch in order to reach the fifth attempt. Hence with vig shots you might
consider to increase the Fifth Attempt Factor to 2.
This is a natural occurence as another killer is present in the game and this could theoretically be done in every game, where you could implement a "Fixed Fifth Attempt Factor" equaling the amount of nightkillers in the game.
This is just a small slice of the big whole huge assfuck that is waiting for ya'll mafia crackheads to deepdive into.
Also this gives town the golden winrate of 70%, which is the totally optimal winrate for town to have. The winrate is measured on reaching the fifth attempt. You can go back to barely 50% winrate if you remove the fifth attempt, but from a sociopsychological standpoint this would be a bit of disadvantage. The finetuning will come from expertise and cheesyness from players and how carefully you distribute roles.
Every role can have it's own formula that is insertable into the whole formula for additional townies. Formula only applies to additional vanilla townies.
If you want me to write an essay on the concept of "Jobs" and "Skill Measurements" in mafia, I would be ready to do so.
Hell IIRC our professors even did an essay on Mafia, since usually Friday nights we ended the Board Game Club with a few rounds of IRL werewolf.
Even then we started adding in slight role madness mechanics long before Aries messaged me to join on NF lol. Thought that was mostly because we had 1 dude who got so good at reading everyone that once the roles got handed out, he would immediately know the entire set up and who was a wolf.
Wad hasn't done any hosted games in years nowAh, feels like I'm back in the Game Deign course reading this.
Hell IIRC our professors even did an essay on Mafia, since usually Friday nights we ended the Board Game Club with a few rounds of IRL werewolf.
Even then we started adding in slight role madness mechanics long before Aries messaged me to join on NF lol. Thought that was mostly because we had 1 dude who got so good at reading everyone that once the roles got handed out, he would immediately know the entire set up and who was a wolf.
Oh wait Aries and Nitty
just from a glance, this seems a bit town favored no?
15-4
day 1 mislynch, n1 misfire, n1 maf kill = 12-4
day 2 mislynch, n2 misfire, n2 maf kill = 9-4
day 3 mislynch, n3 misfire, n3 maf kill = 6-4
day 4 mislynch, n4 maf kill = 4-4
thats a total of 7 town-controlled deaths required for a team of 4 mafia to win. its not easy to achieve that
just taking the piss but anything above 20% winrate for town is not allowed here kek
Rej
Preeminent
nope, this would be an example of a balanced setup
the 4 goons would be fully aware of the existence of a vig in that setup cracking down the formulae and they could play accordingly it, to have atleast 2 out of 3 shots to be misfires
from a metagaming perspective it is achieveable, it's just that every player needs to understand what they are actually playing
most people go monke into every setup anyway
It was 2 phases, and first one was down to an execute so your own fault for wagoning someone that wasn’t a known scum! In fact that execute was solely the fault of town, because Ultra was specifically warned about the possibility of an execute and decided to take that opportunity to troll lmao.
Governor on top was a mistake, which I realised pretty much straight away and held my hands up. The modkill also negatively effected things as well, and don’t forget scum also had lovers so in another scenario they could have lost 2 members with one kill. Everyone makes mistakes here and there with their setups as every host (I’m assuming) wants to be creative and not create the same setup over and over again.
The reason I’m generally trusted to run my own setup without getting it checked is because I don’t make a mistake like that often, and when I do I will accept the mistake and learn from it, as opposed to say you who gets told by everybody what mistakes were made and thinks everyone else is wrong
Btw
Our games are not vanilla kek
Dunno why that keeps getting thrown around. We very very rarely run vanilla games. Our games just generally include a couple of vanillas. For all intents and purpose it’s role madness. Just not taking the absolute piss like you lot who I assume had to create the SRM modifier because of how much you take the piss
Our games are not vanilla kek
Dunno why that keeps getting thrown around. We very very rarely run vanilla games. Our games just generally include a couple of vanillas. For all intents and purpose it’s role madness. Just not taking the absolute piss like you lot who I assume had to create the SRM modifier because of how much you take the piss
It IS town favoured
His essay was arguing for a 70% town win rate which occurs if town are given 5 failed attempts per game. Personally I’d argue that people are just gonna hate playing scum if town are winning 70% of the games, but his essay also argues that taking one of those attempts away puts it to around 50% win rate. So 4 failed attempts
It’s something to think about, because obviously our standard is generally 3 failed attempts which is probably why we have such a high mafia win rate. Our mafia teams have always won quite a lot tbf. So maybe adjusting to a 4 failed attempts could be a way to go
That said his essay mostly focused on full vanilla games, and I’m assuming the maths would need to be adjusted when you throw in multiple information roles that give town info and clues to help them narrow down their poe. It could be argued for example that when you add both a watcher and a cop then a 4 failed attempts system becomes inherently town favoured again
Idk tho something worth thinking about! Considering the state of town on this site, I don’t think adjusting to a 4 mislynch model would be that out of pocket. I might be the only one that thinks so though
lol m8 if we're compromising rather than you accept critiques than the complains will still be directed at you. im not saying there shouldn't be compromises to maintain the original idea of the host, but if there's a lot then it stays on yourself.i'll have magic check all my setups so if town have any complains after getting rekt they can direct it to him
this is also a big one.The reason I’m generally trusted to run my own setup without getting it checked is because I don’t make a mistake like that often, and when I do I will accept the mistake and learn from it, as opposed to say you who gets told by everybody what mistakes were made and thinks everyone else is wrong
if post-game you can say "hey i fucked up. this is how i fucked up. i wont fuck up in the future, it was my bad" people will be a lot less angry with you than if you say "it could have been worse, should have played better. skill issue" as then you're just agitating people that just wasted their time playing your game.
another common problem with many hosts is "well the game came down to anyone can win, which means it was balanced". the game shouldn't always come down to anyone can win because that means skill isn't being displayed in your game. it's just swingy and even if a team plays better they can be fucked by things outside of their control.
I'm gonna create the section now.
Let's regroup in a week and discuss the feel for it!
And we'll wait two weeks after to regroup to check to see if feelings have changed. :)
Let's regroup in a week and discuss the feel for it!
And we'll wait two weeks after to regroup to check to see if feelings have changed. :)
However, I think a condition that may be of use and beneficial to engagement to remain among current players overall is to make Ranked games far more appealing than other sites--which means to differentiate, we could give out exclusive perks and prizes if there's a goal we reached (example: if a host hosts more than X amount of games by the end of the month they can get a cool username effect.)
Is that fair, prizes and perks to reward people dedicated and appreciated for their effort and energy toward engaging with the section? I feel this kind of thing would also increase quality play and less annoyance (from how they view WS ranked games as too rigid so it entices them to step up and get creative with their deductive reasoning skills instead of relying on abilities?)
Unranked wouldn't be part of the official reward system to make it clear games are ranked by default and it's a specific custom/they can choose to take it or leave it, but to earn perks and prizes, you have to earn it through ranked or not at all.
The prizes will have caps, and the way to earn them would be difficult and particularly challenging, and with y'all WS fellas you can really hone in on being competitive among one another so both preferences are covered
Is that fair, prizes and perks to reward people dedicated and appreciated for their effort and energy toward engaging with the section? I feel this kind of thing would also increase quality play and less annoyance (from how they view WS ranked games as too rigid so it entices them to step up and get creative with their deductive reasoning skills instead of relying on abilities?)
Unranked wouldn't be part of the official reward system to make it clear games are ranked by default and it's a specific custom/they can choose to take it or leave it, but to earn perks and prizes, you have to earn it through ranked or not at all.
The prizes will have caps, and the way to earn them would be difficult and particularly challenging, and with y'all WS fellas you can really hone in on being competitive among one another so both preferences are covered
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