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One Piece Tier/Feat/Canon/Toei Discussion Thread Part 3: Road to star level

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Adamant soul said:
https://www.fanverse.org/threads/do...owe-naruto-and-bleach-fans-apologies.1255219/
The sheer desperation to pretend the reveals of Luffy's devil fruit are even bad, much less on the same level as Naruto or Bleach bullshit. :hestonpls
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I honestly do understand their point. Yes, Luffy didn't even know he had such a Devil Fruit, barely anyone did... but how is that any different than Naruto being the Reincarnation of Ashura and having the Bloodline of The Okutsuki and Ichigo being a perfected being from all 4 Chief Races? No one knew that they existed either until the situation finally called for it.

It's either all 3 are travesties or they both had to ultimately train to even ACQUIRE the powerlevels they do now, Luffy is no different in this instance.
I am still of very sound mind that while this isn't an asspull, I don't agree with what people brought around for "proof" that Joyboy was planned for this long and this far. Like the bullshit with Naruto was infamously worse and Kubo just didn't plan around well with Ichigo being the Perfect Hybrid but I'm not going to worship Oda for this.
 
I don't think Oda had it planned even from skypiea though, or Nika probably would have been mentioned on Fishman Island. IMO the concept of Joy Boy, Nika, and their relation to the story has grown over time and probably germinated in Skypiea and he continued to develop it until now, which is why Nika was only formally introduced last year
 
Xhominid The Fool said:
I honestly do understand their point. Yes, Luffy didn't even know he had such a Devil Fruit, barely anyone did... but how is that any different than Naruto being the Reincarnation of Ashura and having the Bloodline of The Okutsuki and Ichigo being a perfected being from all 4 Chief Races?

It's either all 3 are travesties or they both had to ultimately train to even ACQUIRE the powerlevels they do now, Luffy is no different in this instance.
I am still of very sound mind that while this isn't an asspull, I don't agree with what people brought around for "proof" that Joyboy was planned for this long and this far. Like the bullshit with Naruto was infamously worse and Kubo just didn't plan around well with Ichigo being the Perfect Hybrid but I'm not going to worship Oda for this.
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Because this DF, as far as we know atm, didn't play really a part in what Luffy's done so far(as in impact his decisions and make him incredibly overpowered). I can't speak about Bleach, but Nardo's whole lineage included components that won him his battles. He wouldn't have made it past chapter 1 without being an Uzumaki, for example.

Naruto's perfect setup went against everything the story supposedly advocated for - working hard for your dreams will make them a reality. Naruto, with all due respect to his hard work, had his ass saved by third parties throughout most of the series, if not all of it.

Luffy was never portrayed as this poor underdog whom you need to sympathize with and cheer on. He was always just a dude who wanted to be free and have an awesome adventure, and because his heart is in the right place he constantly helps everyone along the way, which have already earned him countless of allies and fans.

Sure, if Luffy's DF is revealed to have practically built his personality so far and seal his destiny without leaving him a choice that would be pretty disappointing and rather contradictory. I personally think that Luffy dying in a battle for freedom proved his worth which resulted in the DF's awakening. Maybe the DF chose him as the next Joyboy? It probably was possessed by many different individuals in the last 800 years, but none was worthy of an awakening. Zoan DF's do have a will of their own, so this one's entirely possible but it also poses the scarier question of Luffy not really having a will of his own.
 
Think a big difference between this and naruto (can't speak on bleach) is Naruto's eventual reveals and retcons went against the entire point of the character

Luffy gaining Nika's power just hammers home that his entire goal is about freedom. Now he's the physical embodiment of that. Gear 5 works thematically because it accentuates traits that were already present in Luffy's personality and fighting style, which isn't the case with how Naruto's character was handled.
 
OtherGalaxy said:
I don't think Oda had it planned even from skypiea though, or Nika probably would have been mentioned on Fishman Island. IMO the concept of Joy Boy, Nika, and their relation to the story has grown over time and probably germinated in Skypiea and he continued to develop it until now, which is why Nika was only formally introduced last year
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I think that the key points of Wano were already ironed-out by the time Skypiea ended, and he took his time with the details of the in-between stories. He could have contemplated on what name to give that "God"/DF. Or simply kept it hidden because said story was so secretive only the biggest players are probably aware of it and they killed those who had passed it. I don't think that not having a name drop necessarily means it was a recent decision.

Skypiea is too tied to the big picture and core story and was also supposed to be the last arc before Oda earned the opportunity to expand his story, and I think Oda already had key plot-points ironed out(I'm almost certain at least Wano's)by the time Skypiea ended/shortly thereafter and continued developing the rest as time went by, probably ironing it all out by the time Fishman island was ongoing, since it was already at that point some crucial endgame setup details were slowly(very slowly)being revealed.
 
OtherGalaxy said:
Think a big difference between this and naruto (can't speak on bleach) is Naruto's eventual reveals and retcons went against the entire point of the character

Luffy gaining Nika's power just hammers home that his entire goal is about freedom. Now he's the physical embodiment of that. Gear 5 works thematically because it accentuates traits that were already present in Luffy's personality and fighting style, which isn't the case with how Naruto's character was handled.
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Yep. But it is kinda bleak in a way, since Luffy literally had to die in order to be free:maybe
But hey, as Kaido said - death completes a person. Which is why he's such an alcoholic, empty husk who wants to die and is probably super envious of Luffy atm. Also, speaking of death, can't wait for Zoro to Doomslay his way through hell and come back with Enma's approval and a new crazy powerup.
 
El Hermano said:
I think that the key points of Wano were already ironed-out by the time Skypiea ended, and he took his time with the details of the in-between stories. He could have contemplated on what name to give that "God"/DF. Or simply kept it hidden because said story was so secretive only the biggest players are probably aware of it and they killed those who had passed it. I don't think that not having a name drop necessarily means it was a recent decision.

Skypiea is too tied to the big picture and core story and was also supposed to be the last arc before Oda earned the opportunity to expand his story, and I think Oda already had key plot-points ironed out(I'm almost certain at least Wano's)by the time Skypiea ended/shortly thereafter and continued developing the rest as time went by, probably ironing it all out by the time Fishman island was ongoing, since it was already at that point some crucial endgame setup details were slowly(very slowly)being revealed.
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I didn't know the manga was supposed to end at Skypiea, but Oda had said even since Punk Hazard a decade ago that Wano is a story he wanted to write for a long time.

But even with that, the actual mention of Nika's name comes so conspicuously late in the game it's hard for me to not see it as a recently finalized decision. Sure the god of the sun was there since Skypiea, but for Nika to not even come up in relation to the sun pirates makes it look like Oda only decided where to take that storyline within the last few years to me.
 
El Hermano said:
Yep. But it is kinda bleak in a way, since Luffy literally had to die in order to be free:maybe
But hey, as Kaido said - death completes a person. Which is why he's such an alcoholic, empty husk who wants to die and is probably super envious of Luffy atm. Also, speaking of death, can't wait for Zoro to Doomslay his way through hell and come back with Enma's approval and a new crazy powerup.
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This reply made me look at this panel differently now
FO3iuApUYAE6hmM


dying to meet the sun god :rock
 
OtherGalaxy said:
This reply made me look at this panel differently now
FO3iuApUYAE6hmM


dying to meet the sun god :rock
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I think One Piece might actually dive into post-mortem soul shenanigans. It actually makes TON of sense now that I think about it more. It would actually leave some questions unanswered if we didn't get to see what happens to one's soul after death.
 
OtherGalaxy said:
I didn't know the manga was supposed to end at Skypiea, but Oda had said even since Punk Hazard a decade ago that Wano is a story he wanted to write for a long time.

But even with that, the actual mention of Nika's name comes so conspicuously late in the game it's hard for me to not see it as a recently finalized decision. Sure the god of the sun was there since Skypiea, but for Nika to not even come up in relation to the sun pirates makes it look like Oda only decided where to take that storyline within the last few years to me.
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I doubt Oda happened to just slap the Sun Pirates with that symbol for no particular reason after mentioning the Sun God earlier.

I think he did have a plan. Maybe not fleshed out, but certainly some key-points he was planned expanding on and using when time comes, working on them and fleshing them out behind the scenes as the story progressed. Obviously, not everything was planned in detail.
 
El Hermano said:
I doubt Oda happened to just slap the Sun Pirates with that symbol for no particular reason after mentioning the Sun God earlier.

I think he did have a plan. Maybe not fleshed out, but certainly some key-points he was planned expanding on and using when time comes, working on them and fleshing them out behind the scenes as the story progressed. Obviously, not everything was planned in detail.
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this is p much what I was saying, I think the general idea was there but def was not refined until now
 
El Hermano said:
Because this DF, as far as we know atm, didn't play really a part in what Luffy's done so far(as in impact his decisions and make him incredibly overpowered). I can't speak about Bleach, but Nardo's whole lineage included components that won him his battles. He wouldn't have made it past chapter 1 without being an Uzumaki, for example.

Naruto's perfect setup went against everything the story supposedly advocated for - working hard for your dreams will make them a reality. Naruto, with all due respect to his hard work, had his ass saved by third parties throughout most of the series, if not all of it.

Luffy was never portrayed as this poor underdog whom you need to sympathize with and cheer on. He was always just a dude who wanted to be free and have an awesome adventure, and because his heart is in the right place he constantly helps everyone along the way, which have already earned him countless of allies and fans.

Sure, if Luffy's DF is revealed to have practically built his personality so far and seal his destiny without leaving him a choice that would be pretty disappointing and rather contradictory. I personally think that Luffy dying in a battle for freedom proved his worth which resulted in the DF's awakening. Maybe the DF chose him as the next Joyboy? It probably was possessed by many different individuals in the last 800 years, but none was worthy of an awakening. Zoan DF's do have a will of their own, so this one's entirely possible but it also poses the scarier question of Luffy not really having a will of his own.
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Yeah, I understand what you are talking about and it does work and I won't like about that. My point is ultimately the fact that we should take away that this isn't some majorly planned revelation and at best, was basically pieced together into what we are seeing now and to not pretend Oda is on some major pedestal because of it.

Naruto was always shit about that because Kishimoto never had a plan that far in at all and tackled subjects he sucked at.
 
Xhominid The Fool said:
I honestly do understand their point. Yes, Luffy didn't even know he had such a Devil Fruit, barely anyone did... but how is that any different than Naruto being the Reincarnation of Ashura and having the Bloodline of The Okutsuki and Ichigo being a perfected being from all 4 Chief Races? No one knew that they existed either until the situation finally called for it.

It's either all 3 are travesties or they both had to ultimately train to even ACQUIRE the powerlevels they do now, Luffy is no different in this instance.
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Naruto was built up as an underdog. That’s the point.

Luffy was not.

A very common complaint regarding Luffy during East Blue is the fact that he never really suffered any crucial defeat, up until he faced Crocodile in Alabasta. Maybe against Smoker in Lougetown.

I can’t say anything for Ichigo, because I haven’t watched Bleach, but Naruto was straight up regarded as a failure. He told Neji he failed the Academy Exam three times.

He was literally called the Dead Last of the Academy.

Sasuke was used as a foil to drive this point home. He copied Lee’s techniques perfectly thanks to a genetic attribute, the sharingan, while Naruto had made his own version of his style to compensate—all while also having his chakra handicapped by Orochimaru.

Also, Luffy’s divine connections has been a driving theme for Skypea. There is a literal panel of Luffy answering a prayer from Conis—whom was praying to God. Luffy LITERALLY brought back the sunlight to Skypea and then followed by dethroning a false god.

“Joyboy” and “Nika” weren’t planned as they are. But Luffy’s motif as a pseudo-Sun Deity? His association with Freedom? Him being the answer to the faith and prayers of people that have long been oppressed? Its been there since Skypea and Alabasta.

Naruto was originally about him having a literal demon inside his belly. Shunned by society and regarded as the worst student who dreams of becoming the greatest leader of his village.

So no shit there is more pushback to Naruto being given divine power and being the reincarnation of the inheritor of the creator of ninja magic. Thats a BIIIG departure from his roots.
 
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