Retroactive Scaling

[OtherGalaxy]

This came up in the other thread and I think it’s be good to have as a point of reference since some of our members seem pretty split on this

Main point of contention: when a character is dead or long out of the story, but feats or statements come up later that boost them significantly, do we accept this?

In Fairy Tail’s 100 year quest this is a big issue now as several characters are getting powerups from Acnologia’s limbs, and the author maintaining Acnologia is still basically at the top, even though these newer feats eclipse his original. Another example is Uvogin from Hunter x Hunter, who died early into the manga but was established as the strongest member (physically) of a very high tier group in the series, lending people to scale certain later feats to him.

I personally don’t have an issue with this, but it is divisive and thus worth discussing.

 

[marf]

I'm ok with it as long as we have a clear confirmation from a reliable source that said character can be scaled to the feat.

 

[xenos5]

I will say there are some characters in One Piece who are already dead by the time the story takes place, so they kinda have to use retroactive scaling or just be labeled featless even though there are means to compare them.

Like Joyboy. We have no feats for him in the past as of yet, but the Giant Robot Emet was able to use Joyboy’s Haki to damage the Gorosei.

I think this is a different case from a character that already has clearly defined feats while they are alive, and then the entire verse gets better feats after their death which are vastly above anything they showed themselves.

Basically, case by case basis as is the way with most things in the OBD. But mostly as a last resort for characters who have no other means of being scaled makes more sense to me.

 

[Astaro]

A manga which was originally made as promotional material for the anime. Which also skipped and/or massively condensed certain arcs. Yes, I know the DBS Manga has gone past the anime. But as far as I’m concerned they’re equally canon at worst since they both use Toriyama’s manuscript (which is why some of the broad strokes are the same across both despite how vastly different they are otherwise).

And now clearly it’s own continuity, that logically comes from the manga

Regardless. Neither of them take events from the Toeiverse. You don’t see shit like Goku getting a driver’s license referenced, or the Other World tournament, or anything from the DBZ movies (Toriyama came up with a brand new version of Broly rather than transfer the original over).

But you know what we do see? Clips from the anime used as flashbacks



0:50

^ showing that DBS anime and DBZ anime are the same continuity

Don't even bother at this point man...
Astaro is pulling shit out of his ass because he literally made no point and it was obvious when he jumped into DBS and then into DBZ and completely missed that's not due to retroactive scaling even IF we used it for a reason why.

You know what the comparison was, you dumbfuck

And if you both want to be so nitpicky about it.

Swap out King Vegeta for beginning of Z Piccolo blowing up the Moon for the exact same thing

 

[B Rabbit]

I think this is just one big a confusion though that's easily explained.

Can I scale Egghead G4 Luffy feats to Whole Cake Island G4 Luffy? No that's retroactive scaling just wouldn't work. Despite them being the same form. Same reason you couldn't scale Winning Island Law to Wano Law. Law was stronger on Winning Island. You can't scale feats.

Could I scale Law's feats to Marineford Whitebeard? Yes, because Whitebeard at MF is still stronger than Winning Island Law. Despite being 500+ chapters ago. We know this because we still have numerous statements from the manga and the mangaka of MF Whitebeard being comparable to Kaidou, Mom, Shanks. While we have feats of Law still being weaker than these fighters. It would be silly to say Law is better than MF Whitebeard. When we know he's not.

So technically speaking. Both parties are right. As with almost everything in the OBD. Facts and Statements will always win out. So if it's indeed true that an old character in a series scales to a newer character. Simple statements and facts would help that debate.

Copy and pasted from the other thread.

One Piece wasn't the topic of conversation, but this was the breakdown I took from it. Using a series I'm familiar with.

 

[Triple Accel 555]

showing that DBS anime and DBZ anime are the same continuity

I think that more like DB Kai. That series followed manga compare to Toei DBZ.

 

[Astaro]

I think that more like DB Kai. That series followed manga compare to Toei DBZ.

Which is moot when all DBZ Kai was is recycled clips from the original anime

 

[Triple Accel 555]

Which is moot when all DBZ Kai was is recycled clips from the original anime

Toei Confirms Dragon Ball Kai is Edited to Follow Manga

"Akira Toriyama Original Cut" re-airing to more closely adhere to manga's pacing

www.animenewsnetwork.com

 

[Astaro]

Toei Confirms Dragon Ball Kai is Edited to Follow Manga

"Akira Toriyama Original Cut" re-airing to more closely adhere to manga's pacing

www.animenewsnetwork.com

That’s not going against what I said before

 

[ChaosTheory123]

This came up in the other thread and I think it’s be good to have as a point of reference since some of our members seem pretty split on this

The fuck is the split about?

Accolades have informed direction of powerscaling for years. Its how you fill in the blanks and they can be applied to a given series at any time. Accolades that came later generally trump previously established accolades unless other accolades or direct interactions between characters that the accolade is applicable to develop some kind of narrative snarling contradiction

If an accolade that informs directionality isn't present, you can hardly make assumptions without establishing a path to inference, but otherwise this is cut and dry

 

[Astaro]

The fuck is the split about?

Accolades have informed direction of powerscaling for years. Its how you fill in the blanks and they can be applied to a given series at any time. Accolades that came later generally trump previously established accolades unless other accolades or direct interactions between characters that the accolade is applicable to develop some kind of narrative snarling contradiction

If an accolade that informs directionality isn't present, you can hardly make assumptions without establishing a path to inference, but otherwise this is cut and dry

This

Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 5: Diamonds are fleeting. Stupid lasts forever

Okay, so we are just supposed to pretend that it's somehow Zeref will do when it's not even something he did in canon? Yeah, not buying that. It's the same shit as SB continually giving shit to Scion that he never did but TWE did because "he's it's Avatar and he should be capable of it too"...

onelastforum.com

Starts at 8765

Long story short, endless stonewalling, mainly from Xhom, about why Acnologia, the literal strongest character in Fairy Tail, doesn’t get scaling to the succeeding villains because he’s dead or some shit despite the numerous points all consistently pointing to him still being the top dog after death with Mashima himself spelling it out

 

[ChaosTheory123]

This

Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 5: Diamonds are fleeting. Stupid lasts forever

Okay, so we are just supposed to pretend that it's somehow Zeref will do when it's not even something he did in canon? Yeah, not buying that. It's the same shit as SB continually giving shit to Scion that he never did but TWE did because "he's it's Avatar and he should be capable of it too"...

onelastforum.com

Starts at 8765

Long story short, endless stonewalling, mainly from Xhom, about why Acnologia, the literal strongest character in Fairy Tail, doesn’t get scaling to the succeeding villains because he’s dead or some shit despite the numerous points all consistently pointing to him still being the top dog after death with Mashima himself spelling it out

Just sounds like scaling shit for characters like Darth Sidious, Raizen, the ever moving goal post Beerus, etc

 

[Astaro]

Just sounds like scaling shit for characters like Darth Sidious, Raizen, the ever moving goal post Beerus, etc

Raizen would lose to fucking Sensui with the shit being argued for Acnologia

Dead, even less feats to his name than Acnologia, and nothing but hype statements of his prime before he staved off eating humans

Oh wait, but he stomped Sensui? Doesn’t matter, that was Raizen using Yusuke’s body who totally didn’t get any sort of power up beyond being controlled



That’s the same shit they say about Faris, one of the new baddies who acquired Acnologia’s arm and became strong enough to fight one of the Dragon Gods with it.

Somehow, still doesn’t apply to Acnologia anyway

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Raizen would lose to fucking Sensui with the shit being argued for Acnologia

Dead, even less feats to his name than Acnologia, and nothing but hype statements of his prime before he staved off eating humans

Oh wait, but he stomped Sensui? Doesn’t matter, that was Raizen using Yusuke’s body who totally didn’t get any sort of power up beyond being controlled



That’s the same shit they say about Faris, one of the new baddies who acquired Acnologia’s arm and became strong enough to fight one of the Dragon Gods with it.

Somehow, still doesn’t apply to Acnologia anyway

Astaro, your arguments was shit and you based on a character fashioning a gauntlet out of Acnologia's arm and can't fathom that alone would not boost Acnologia's power level because it would factor in her's too...

You then went into a bitching fit using Fate and then Dragon Ball to cover your ass. B Rabbit and ChaosTheory is carrying this shit for you, not you nor Pax. Especially when it came to then trying to use a clone of Zeref that Aldoron copied that somehow copied over his Curse that nearly killed it when it was fashioned from the God who cursed Zeref which raises so many questions.

If it was to ever pass, it would be a case by case basis and Acnologia and Zeref are sloppy as shit, WoG is not included as a base alone.

 

[Astaro]

Astaro, your arguments was shit and you based on a character fashioning a gauntlet out of Acnologia's arm and can't fathom that alone would not boost Acnologia's power level because it would factor in her's too...

Now sight Faris’ power level before that gauntlet made from Acnologia’s arm

It’s not looking good with her Edolas counterpart being an ordinary farm girl and Elentear version getting her power likewise from stealing from others and being weak on her own.

This is so fucking flimsy of a cop out just to ignore that yes, stealing the power of a God Dragon tier character is what’s allowing Faris to fight another God Dragon level character

You then went into a bitching fit using Fate and then Dragon Ball to cover your ass. B Rabbit and ChaosTheory is carrying this shit for you, not you nor Pax. Especially when it came to then trying to use a clone of Zeref that Aldoron copied that somehow copied over his Curse that nearly killed it when it was fashioned from the God who cursed Zeref which raises so many questions.

Nope, just pointing how the hilarious two tier logic being used between Fairy Tail and how both of those get treated when it comes to scaling.

If it was to ever pass, it would be a case by case basis and Acnologia and Zeref are sloppy as shit, WoG is not included as a base alone.

Good thing it’s more than just word of God proving their top tier

Faris for Acnologia and the fact that the God Dragons are at their current level just to be able to fight him

Zeref from a clone whose power uses the literal memories of how strong he was as the basis for its own power nearly killing Aldoron with Zeref’s copied Magic

 

[Astaro]

Chaos and B Rabbit aren’t carrying anything for me. All they’ve done is bring up how yes, other series on here do get retroactive scaling and that YOU are full of crap for saying otherwise

 

[Masterblack06]

if the obd wants it then the obd wants it, the reason i said people in the obd dont do retoractive scaling is because of this big ass thread I saw a while back with people trying to use retroactive scaling for dragon ball and everyone and their mom coming together to shut it down.

But if thats changed then its changed and Ill change the rules to reflect it. Like I said, i dont need to be convinced of anything, if everyone agrees on how something should work, the popular thing being to go case by case like we do for everything else, then thats what itll be

This

Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 5: Diamonds are fleeting. Stupid lasts forever

Okay, so we are just supposed to pretend that it's somehow Zeref will do when it's not even something he did in canon? Yeah, not buying that. It's the same shit as SB continually giving shit to Scion that he never did but TWE did because "he's it's Avatar and he should be capable of it too"...

onelastforum.com

Starts at 8765

Long story short, endless stonewalling, mainly from Xhom, about why Acnologia, the literal strongest character in Fairy Tail, doesn’t get scaling to the succeeding villains because he’s dead or some shit despite the numerous points all consistently pointing to him still being the top dog after death with Mashima himself spelling it out

I expressed my opinion on it and from past experiences what I remember the OBD stance on it to be, If it came across as stonewalling then thats on me, regardless it seems that either i missed things or things have changed and Ill just have to deal with it

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

I'd rather it only be case by case basis IF we are going to allow retroactive scaling because it's gonna be an absolute clusterfuck with the amount of stupid shit people will allow because "it makes sense" as it's only backing.

 

[OrlandoSky]

And now clearly it’s own continuity, that logically comes from the manga

But you know what we do see? Clips from the anime used as flashbacks



0:50

^ showing that DBS anime and DBZ anime are the same continuity

DBZ Kai is not canon because of its use of filler and it’s HFIL version of hell being contradicted.

Toei clearly doesn’t want to waste more time and budget re-animating a scene that they already have on hand animated in HD because of Kai’s broadcasts.

The way I see it:

Main canon:
-OG manga
-Tarble OVA
-Super Anime
-Jaco and DB minus spin offs
-Broly and Super Hero movies
-Daima

Toyotaro canon:
-OG manga
-Tarble OVA
-Resurrection F movie and prelude tie-in
-Super Manga
-Broly movie

Toeiland/GT canon:
-90s DB/Z/GT anime run
-Dead Zone, Tree of Might, Cooler movies and Wrath of the Dragon

Xenoverse canon:
-pretty much everything

 

[Uoruk]

if the obd wants it then the obd wants it, the reason i said people in the obd dont do retoractive scaling is because of this big ass thread I saw a while back with people trying to use retroactive scaling for dragon ball and everyone and their mom coming together to shut it down.

But if thats changed then its changed and Ill change the rules to reflect it. Like I said, i dont need to be convinced of anything, if everyone agrees on how something should work, the popular thing being to go case by case like we do for everything else, then thats what itll be



I expressed my opinion on it and from past experiences what I remember the OBD stance on it to be, If it came across as stonewalling then thats on me, regardless it seems that either i missed things or things have changed and Ill just have to deal with it

Nah we've always done retroactive scaling. We did it for both the Gales and Shiba in RAVE for instance. Despite the fact that the Gales died 60 chapters in to a 290 chapter manga they get scaling from feats performed by later characters based on the fact that it was said in the story and by the author that those three were the strongest swordsman in the setting and the characters performing said feats are still comparing themselves to them dozens of chapters later.

They tchnically have the best strength feat in the series but we don't count them shaking the planet as legit (despite later narration giving it more credibility )