Shin Megami Tensei vs toaru

[Paxton]

We already got the answer back in the port, You have provided zero reason to say that is wrong outside of the vague hint of the Great Reason being different which has no direct statement unlike the Last Bible Port which is never said to be wrong ever.

When does Last Bible even mention the Great Will AND the Great Reason?

The Great Reason is a term that's only used in IV/Apocalypse.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

This is about the 5th time you've said I lied about To Aru yet that has never been the case.


I said Othinus inspired the Norse myth, yes.
I said the others didn't inspire their respective myths, yes.

What are you talking about?

From Cryso's own statements and your constant backpedals, yes, you are incorrect as fuck.
You keep doing this shit all the time and then have a fucking ragefit while being a passive-aggressive bitch every time you are called out. You literally bring shit up about how Touma should be able to deal with nanomachines with IB in the past Circus Thread and bring up context that only not only disagrees but personally shows you wasn't truthful about IB in any fashion.

You keep doing this with rapidly inventing shit about To Aru even when it's contradicting including in this very thread against a bunch of witnesses including stating that against any rational sense, stated To Aru has the same Human Cognition factor as SMT unironically.

And now, you keep backpedaling as if we literally cannot see your earlier posts with your only excuse for the past few posts have been "I thought differently". Again, why should anyone respect your ass when you do shit like this?

 

[Paxton]

From Cryso's own statements and your constant backpedals, yes, you are incorrect as fuck.
You keep doing this shit all the time and then have a fucking ragefit while being a passive-aggressive bitch every time you are called out. You literally bring shit up about how Touma should be able to deal with nanomachines with IB in the past Circus Thread and bring up context that only not only disagrees but personally shows you wasn't truthful about IB in any fashion.

You keep doing this with rapidly inventing shit about To Aru even when it's contradicting including in this very thread against a bunch of witnesses including stating that against any rational sense, stated To Aru has the same Human Cognition factor as SMT unironically.

And now, you keep backpedaling as if we literally cannot see your earlier posts with your only excuse for the past few posts have been "I thought differently". Again, why should anyone respect your ass when you do shit like this?

All he did was post a single quote where it's said that Othinus likely inspired the Norse myth, which isn't sufficient evidence for the claim that HE made where he said that all Magic Gods inspired their myth.


That doesn't prove anything in regards to literally every other myth or legend that exist in the series.


Point me to the exact conversation you're referring to if you're going to call me a liar about IB. Either drop the accusations or back that shit up.

 

[Paxton]

And yes, do also point me to the quote where the Dragons/IT buff Imagine Breaker (which doesn't exist), that you called me out on "lying about" a good couple months ago.


"Not without the power of the Invisible Dragons doing so but please, lie again despite showing us blatant evidence that IB was never that strong until Touma and the Invisible Dragons buffed it that hard."

 

[Churronzon]

SMT stomps

Oh yeah FYI, you guys DO know that despite the other gods being Demons... everything they have done in their mythologies, the places and otherwise are still truth right?

Yeah phases in Toaru aren't truth. They're just whatever nonsense humanity happened to believe in whatever part of the world at whatever point in time. What is presented as truth is the Tree of Life however.

Phase beings are literally inspired by MG's.

MGs didn't inspire all of them. It's mostly Othinus who's the outlier and possibly the Forgotten God depending on how you look at it.

Archangels are described as existing since time immemorial compared to the concrete age of some known MGs being around 4000 years old.

Magic God Nephthys states she is inspired by the original Nephthys.

“Nephthys is the crying goddess. She is the sister of the underworld god Osiris and wife of the death god Set. Osiris was killed by the misdeeds of her husband and she purified that sin with her flood of tears. I am a collection of those who were buried along with the dead pharaohs who desired company and I am seen as another face of that goddess. Thus, I can draw on that initial goddess’s power because I am already Nephthys.”

Kabbalah itself predates humanity and would emanate from the same source that created the setting. Even Yggdrasil isn't considered as a phase, Othinus only calls Asgard as one. Different religions and philosophies are basically outlining a framework of reality that was present before them as they try to understand it. Neither Othinus nor Odin created Yggdrasil.

I know that too, but human perception shaping phases, doesn't actually mean phases = irl myth.

Well yeah as a general rule we should not be scaling to IRL myths, that's obvious. To go even further, the creation of the Cthulhu Mythos in Toaru is moreso based off of Kenneth Grant's interpretation of these cosmic entities as he believed Lovecraft was having visions of real life stuff and found a connection to Aleister coming into contact with an entity that named itself Tutulu in 1907 among other stuff that I haven't researched about yet. Top-tier schizo shit. In Toaru, it's adequately represented as fictitious stories being turned into nonfiction.

“So this time it’s the Forgotten God. It’s
kind of sad. Lovecraft used him as reference material, but the fiction and nonfiction got
mixed together so badly his original form was completely forgotten! Didn’t people also
decide there was a connection to Crowley, so they stopped all research into this Magic
God’s historicity?

I don't know what the point of all this is, but we have the following about how Toaru's observation works: (Espers can observe their surroundings to intentionally alter probability at the quantum level, and produce various abilities with their blurred cognition)
In one of the above quotes, it can even potentially distort Magic Gods, though no one has displayed the ability to do so as of yet.

On alchemy and Gnosticism and its relation to Carl Jung we have the following:

In fact, the goal of Ars Magna wasn’t to create gold or make an immortal elixir. It was
really only something like humans being an incomplete version of God, so if a human
was to train and become “complete”, then he could become a god. Obviously that all
sounds like a mess of cultic hubbub, but as you can see the term “God” in there, you can
tell that Christian culture got mixed into alchemy.

In the story itself, the spell Aureolus used that made everything in his head become
reality was closer to the Zurich style of alchemy. This mixed the original alchemy with
the psychology of Carl Jung; “doing alchemy in your head” is the gist of it.

“Ars Magna,” Himegami muttered while touching the large cross at her chest.

The man who had once used alchemy to reach Ars Magna had likely belonged to that
ideology. After all, Ars Magna of alchemy was not the technique of turning lead to gold.
It was the technique of sublimating a human soul that had been dulled like lead into an
angel’s soul that was like gold.

Gnosticism was popular among those who strayed from the proper path in the occult
because it involved usurping the power of God. Regardless of the differences in how they
thought, humans all wanted to reach the same place.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Yeah phases in Toaru aren't truth. They're just whatever nonsense humanity happened to believe in whatever part of the world at whatever point in time. What is presented as truth is the Tree of Life however.

I like how Paxton still rates your post despite you basically destroying his argument at the same breath of clarifying some things...

 

[Paxton]

SMT stomps

Yeah phases in Toaru aren't truth. They're just whatever nonsense humanity happened to believe in whatever part of the world at whatever point in time. What is presented as truth is the Tree of Life however.

MGs didn't inspire all of them. It's mostly Othinus who's the outlier and possibly the Forgotten God depending on how you look at it.

Archangels are described as existing since time immemorial compared to the concrete age of some known MGs being around 4000 years old.

Nephthys states she is inspired by the original Nephthys.


Kabbalah itself predates humanity and would emanate from the same source that created the setting. Even Yggdrasil isn't considered as a phase, Othinus only calls Asgard as one. Different religions and mythologies are basically outlining a framework of reality that was present before them as they try to understand it. Neither Othinus nor Odin created Yggdrasil.

Well yeah as a general rule we should not be scaling to IRL myths, that's obvious. To go even further, the creation of the Cthulhu Mythos in Toaru is moreso based off of Kenneth Grant's interpretation of these cosmic entities as he believed Lovecraft was having visions of real life stuff and found a connection to Aleister coming into contact with an entity that named itself Tutulu in 1907 among other stuff that I haven't researched about yet. Top-tier schizo shit. In Toaru, it's adequately represented as fictitious stories being turned into nonfiction.


I don't know what the point of all this is, but we have the following about how Toaru's observation works: (Espers can observe their surroundings to intentionally alter probability at the quantum level, and produce various abilities with their blurred cognition)
In one of the above quotes, it can even potentially distort Magic Gods, though no one has displayed the ability to do so as of yet.

On alchemy and Gnosticism and its relation to Carl Jung we have the following:


What's the point of all this, I don't know.

How many times do I have to tell you to spell it correctly?

 

[Paxton]

I like how Paxton still rates your post despite you basically destroying his argument at the same breath of clarifying some things...

So? I'm allowed to generally agree with what he's saying while potentially disagreeing on minute matters.

Anyway, gonna say this again: prove I was lying about IB and the Invisible Thing/Dragons buffing it as well.

 

[Paxton]

Anyway still not sure how we discussed for several pages yet billions of universes (or an infinite amount) existing in the Amala Space somehow equating to being megaversal+ wasn't elaborated on.

 

[King]

There's no direct evidence they're the same being, as the Great Will (that YHVH and Kagatsuchi serve) is actively more antagonistic than the Axiom/Great Reason that Stephen talks about in Apocalypse.

both are the same entity, both use the same avatar is YHVH,I don't understand why you are trying to deny, when both all use the same avatar

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

So? I'm allowed to generally agree with what he's saying while potentially disagreeing on minute matters.

Anyway, gonna say this again: prove I was lying about IB and the Invisible Thing/Dragons buffing it as well.

Man, shut your ass up, holy fuck! Concede your stupid ass argument at this point and lie down. There is no minute matters, he literally demolished most of your current arguments entirely. You have no basis past continually bringing up shit that you yourself believe I somehow lied despite it being something you brought in just to save some face like you always do.

Shut the fuck up and leave the goddamned topic with whatever shreds of dignity you have.

 

[Paxton]

Man, shut your ass up, holy fuck! Concede your stupid ass argument at this point and lie down. There is no minute matters, he literally demolished most of your current arguments entirely. You have no basis past continually bringing up shit that you yourself believe I somehow lied despite it being something you brought in just to save some face like you always do.

Shut the fuck up and leave the goddamned topic with whatever shreds of dignity you have.

What did he correct besides the parts about phases being 1:1 with the myths?

Also why's this matter anyway? What myths or legends even get beyond multi+ territory (which Kagatsuchi and characters like Othinus already get to)?



I can gladly concede on the thread matters but I'm not going to concede on you calling me a liar about To Aru with not a shred of evidence being posted.

Stop being a coward and actually address this shit: we can go to DMs, the actual thread for the series, I don't care.

 

[Churronzon]

Just because I'm curious, does SMT not have an equivalent concept for the triple negative veils of Ein Sof Ohr, Ein Sof, Ein?
I do not pretend to be deeply familiar with SMT but I thought that would be the distinction via Axiom, Great Reason, and Great Will.
I'd be disappointed if they don't accurately follow how God becomes conscious of itself.

 

[Paxton]

Just because I'm curious, does SMT not have an equivalent concept for the triple negative veils of Ein Sof Our, Ein Sof, Ein?
I do not pretend to be deeply familiar with SMT but I thought that would be the distinction via Axiom, Great Reason, and Great Will.
I'd be disappointed if they don't accurately follow how God becomes conscious of itself.

Nothing's gonna top Unsong, man. Don't bother.

 

[Churronzon]

Did this game ever have a storyline/loredrop and/or is it lost media?

Persona Ain Soph

Persona Ain Soph (ペルソナ アインソフ, Perusona Ain Sofu)?, abbreviated as P00, was a free, browser-based RPG developed by Atlus. Japan: February 26th, 2008 (Released) Japan: June 30th, 2010 (Closed) Ain Soph, named after the Hebrew word for "infinity," was based on Persona 3. It was announced and...

megamitensei.fandom.com

 

[Masterblack06]

@Masterblack06 Got any page you got that from? even so if it never has been collaborated outside of Apocalypse that does not help since that game was rife with errors in the lore as well as the fact the page itself stated it is contradicting and not mentioned if they are different beings, so I am doubtful that changes anything.

From the SMT Wiki

I just posted it point out that we dont know much about the axiom and also that its only ever mentioned in apocalypse

 

[Paxton]

both are the same entity, both use the same avatar is YHVH,I don't understand why you are trying to deny, when both all use the same avatar

It's not likely that they are.

If the Great Will was defeated or even surpassed in Last Bible, that contradicts what Stephen says about humanity eventually surpassing the Axiom/Great Reason (which is the Great Will, as you say).

As in, that's something that has not happened yet.

Like, I guess you can say it's probably a "lesser" manifestation of it rather than the full thing, if you want.

 

[Masterblack06]

It's not likely that they are.

If the Great Will was defeated or even surpassed in Last Bible, that contradicts what Stephen says about humanity eventually surpassing the Axiom/Great Reason (which is the Great Will, as you say).

As in, that's something that has not happened yet.

Tbf Last Bible has no official Translation

 

[NostalgiaFan]

Again, what scan or statement is being referred to?

The one literally saying that YHVH is not the Embodiment of evil.

Nocturne Guide Interview

DoubleJump Publishing, Incorporated. Shin Megami Tensei Nocturne: The Official Strategy Guide. Onionbat, 2004, pp. 384-387. Offical website: It has only been recently, relatively speaking, that RP…

megatengaku.wordpress.com

And the fact even in the only game that mentions "The Great Reason" it is less of an entity that deliberately makes its own avatars and instead creates beings like YHVH and "Messiahs" that goes against it since it is varied on the will of Humanity itself.

When does Last Bible even mention the Great Will AND the Great Reason?

The Great Reason is a term that's only used in IV/Apocalypse.

You're reading comprehension issues are starting up again. I never said they were both mentioned, I literally said the opposite and that there is nothing indicating they are different.

 

[JayK]

I don't really know how this got 7 pages.

The cosmology of the weakest avatar of a single head of YHVH is multiversal+ (even a huge lowball considering Strange Journey), technically making every head a megaverse.

In Apocalypse we then see that there are thousand heads.

YHVH's own realm is outright called infinitely bigger than all of that and each of the 4 layers his realm consists of is infinitely larger than the lower layer.

The Diamond Realm then connects all that to even more shit. How large the Diamond Realm outside of the beforementioned stuff is, is speculation however.