That's the thing. Ranni is also Marika/Radagon's daughter,
No, she is Radagon and Rennala's daughter. She is then given the status of demigod with Radahn and Rykard after Radagon marries Marika. She has no blood connection to Marika at all. Otherwise what would be the point if Radagon and Marika are the same person of having to justify a political marriage to elevate three more of her children to demigod status?
and we know even during Radagon's reign as the second Elden Lord he was some part of Marika prior. You can follow up on Miriel's lead on that sculptor, and find Radagon's secret.
The sculptor and Turtle pope both spell out that Radagon and Marika were fused after he became the second Elden Lord after Godfrey was exiled with his warriors from the Lands Between when Marika took their grace, Radagon was never before that connected to Marika.
It's that he is Marika, and this statue was made before the shattering.
Again, Melina's lines along with the quote from Marika's Bedchamber for Radagon, the Turtle pope and painter's message all indicate Radagon and Marika were two separate entities the whole time before Godfrey was exiled after being the first Elden Lord. There is no mention of Radagon in the story or lore prior to the war with the giants or the two wars with Caria/Liurana and by then he was already a "famed champion" of the Golden Order.
I believe otherwise here, and that the first time it happened was when Ranni stole it. Where is where you can draw the connection between her, and the Dusk-Eyed Queen. His black blade is also noted to be in a sorry state when you get it, and when he uses it again against you.
Malekith's black blade is in a "sorry" state because its been leeched of its power of holding the Destined Death/Death Rune multiple times now and Malekith's own Remembrance states he wasn't expecting Marika of all people to further betray him after you kill him. Other Empyreans and Gods using the power of the Death Rune is already something that's happened multiple times prior in the story; the Gloam-Eyed/Dusk-Eyed Queen, the Godskin Apostles and Nobles, Ranni, the Black Knives assassins, etc...
Which really doesn't contradict anything else. Unless the Rune of Death was intially in that great sword but it wasn't. It was sealed away in the black blade. Then a few pieces of said sword got stolen by Ranni.
It contradicts your belief that Marika had other children who were gods or demigods when the first two Empyreans that were granted God status were the Gloam-Eyed Queen and Marika. We already know that Malekith had yet to exist or be created as Marika's Shadow to watch over the Death Rune/Destined Death yet the GEQ was channeling its power through her own Godslayer Great Sword and bequeathed the ability to use the Black Flames to kill divine beings onto her children/followers i.e. the Godskins.
The fact of the matter is we have no idea Ranni managed to take fragments of the Death Rune from Malekith without his noticing after he had already sealed it into his black blade sword, and still have enough to kill herself physically in her original body and also give enough to half a dozen or more Black Knives assassins to get into Lyendell, assassinate Godwyn, AND have another part of it to forge the Blasphemous Claw to give to her brother Rykard to face down Malekith.
They stole fragments of the black blade itself.
Yes. We agree on this, Gywn.
Which had the Rune of Death sealed inside of it, and in turn inside of whatever pieces of it. We can clearly see that the black blade has seen better days, and it looks like dilapidated piece of rock that is sword shaped and attached to a guard and handle. I imagine that's how some parts of the Rune of Death got stolen.
And you also see that Melina's personal dagger resembles that of the Numen Black Knives own daggers almost to the T. And the Black Knives are all women who are descendants of the Numen who inhabited the twin underground cities of Nokron and Nokstella, the twin eternal cities. And is stated on their armor description that they have a connection with Marika, who is also of the Numen race.
The Greater Will existed before the Erdtree and the Elden Ring, but the Erdtree and the Elden Ring only came to be after the
Elden Beast came from the stars.
The Elden Ring is implied to have already existed prior to the the Greater Will sending the Elden Beast to the Land Between. The narration this case is contradicted when the Age of Dragons stemmed from the Crucible birthing them and before worship of the Erdtree was a thing. Multiple other Outer Gods have and had a major presence with other races and peoples in the world; the Fell God with the Giants, the unnamed dragon god for the dragons, the Nokrons worshiping Noctis, the Goddess of the Night, the Frenzied Flame/Shabiri being venerated by the Chaos worshiping Merchants who wander the world.
I don't think said dragon god would allow the Dragon Lord to don or use something created by another Outer God like the Greater Will.
Which is after the reign of the Dragon Lord, and the unnamed Dragon God.
The dragons were already reigning over the world and Placidusax was already the "Elden"/Dragon Lord before the Greater Will sent the Elden Beast from the stars.
It was the arrival of the Elden Beast and the Erdtree that sparked the conflict. Which is what led to the war of the ancients dragons against the Golden Order, and their capital. Gransax's corpse is even still there, and nobody ever bothered to remove it. Which is kind of weird, and makes me wonder if more time-travel is involved.
The war with the dragons was the final war which Godfrey took part of. And the war started with the dragons invading and assaulting Lynedell, the capital, of Marika and Godfrey's empire. Then the Golden Order began its counter-attack, which is after the wars with Liurnia/Caria, the war with the Giants, and the civil war between the two Empyreans during the Age of the Erdtree.
The Greater Will and the Elden Beast are not the same thing.
I never said they were.
The Elden Beast is an envoy of it,
Its not. The Two Fingers are the Greater Will's envoy(s), the Elden Beast appears to be some kind of divine enforcer of the Greater Will as a last resort and bound itself with the Elden Ring in a parastic form to be with the current Empyrean of the age at any given time since they are one with it.
and crashed landed on the Lands Between. Sometime after the reign of the Dragon Lord, and his unnamed Dragon God. It has more in common with the Elden Ring. Which formed around it after said crash. However, they came afterwards. Only the Greater Will itself predates the Lands Between, but it did not interfere until it sent the Elden Beast.
All of the Outer Gods likely predate life born from the Crucible; not just the Greater Will but the Frenzied Flame, God of Rot/Scarlet Rot, Formless/Transient Mother aka the God of Blood, the Fell God of the Giants, the unnamed Dragon God, the Moon/Dark Moon, God of the Twinbirds, etc...Simple fact of the matter is the dragons were and are called primeval life forms which implies their rise as a society predated the Erdtree. In fact they say "prehistoric" times before the Erdtree was when the dragons ruled.
Going to have ask for another source for this. Since I can't find this either. Everything I saw implied that Radagon appeared afterwards, and that his invasion of Liurnia was sometime after Godfrey was banished. Godfrey lost his grace sometime after defeating the Storm Lord IIRC.
The war with Liurnia was well before Godfrey was banished and prior to the war with the dragons, and Radagon was already a famed hero of the Golden Order and known as a champion. So it makes it impossible for Godfrey to have already been banished if Radagon had yet to wed Rennala and father three children with her, my dude.
That's only because nobody knew that Radagon and Marika were part of the same exact person,
No, they were two distinctive and two separate people who were eventually fused together because the Greater Will did not trust Marika ultimately.
and note what Iji says about Blaidd. He was also Ranni's step-brother, and the Two Fingers/Greater Will gave Ranni her shadow when she was a child. This was back when Rennala was sane. Which means Ranni had their attention even before Radagon left and became Marika's consort.
And this is also while Godfrey is still the reigning first Elden Lord and before his banishment. I'm not sure what you are trying to say here about this, I never argued that Ranni wasn't a candidate Empyrean or that Blaidd wasn't created to be her Shadow. The Greater Will's attention can be on multiple people given how Malenia and Miquella once born, were the envy of both sides of Marika's extended family considering even Morgott notes them explicitly as "prodigies" and we know both of them were Empyreans as well.
In that same exact instance Marika refers to Radagon as her other half, and we know that Radagon harbored this secret BEFORE the shattering even happened. And that's when Marika was cursed for breaking the Elden Ring.
She notes they had never become one, indicating they were never one entity originally hence why "thou art yet to become a God."
Again, you are missing something important here, the spirit is connected to Ranni by its left eye at the doll's right eye. Which is closed, and has the same marking. The spirit is connected to the doll body BY its left eye, and we can clearly see that. Notice how the spirit's left eye is attached to the doll body's right eye? Which means that's the method by which they're connected.
I'm well aware of the similarity in the situation between Melina's eye and Ranni's in comparison. I simply don't feel there is enough evidence to go beyond speculation that they are each other and the theory involving Melina being Marika's daughter (explictly stated in the datamined game files) or the GEQ or a combination of the two is far likelier then her being the physical vessel of Ranni's discarded body.
Look at the similarity between Millicent and her sisters and their relation to their "mother" Malenia for a similar situation.
Not a reincarnation at all. She is either the Dusk-Eyed Queen's spirit, Ranni's spirit, or both if they're the same exact person. She has no body here, and is not alive to begin with. And what burns when she sacrifices herself is her soul. It's not her life she is throwing away.
Well again I'll refer to the fact "Melina, Marika's daughter" kind of being the hard stop here on her being connection to Ranni.
I am not saying Marika was killed. I am saying that Melina was, and she notes that she doesn't have an actual body. That's why like Torrent? She is able to disappear and reappear at a moment's notice.
It seems like multiple Finger Maidens can do that, its implied to be an instinctive ability. Then again we don't know if this something Melina can do despite not being a "maiden" per say and being of Marika's bloodline and a demigod her self, I don't fucking now.
Melina is definitely a ghost though. She even says as such, and notes that she is burned and bodyless.
She has no problem having a tangible body just like Millicent and aiding the Tarnished in battling Morgott in the Elden Lord thrones above the Royal Capital. She is not completely intangible or a true spirit if she can fight and be physically harmed during said boss fight, as we can tell.
Unless she is lying to us? There is no physical body here. Which leans towards her being Ranni's spirit free of the doll's body.
Me, I'm searching for my purpose given to me by my mother inside the Erdtree long ago, for the reason that I yet live, burned and bodyless. That's because nobody knew that Ranni was behind the assassination of Godwyn, and they also didn't know that she was the one who stole the Rune of Death. Only a handful of people were privy to that knowledge. Rykard, and possibly both Marika and Maliketh.
It makes zero sense for Marika to be aware of Ranni's role in the Night of the Black Knives and privy would imply she condone or sanctioned or pretended to allow it to happen. Which is further nonsense given that Godwyn was her most favorite and favored child she had and his death is what lead to her Shattering the Elden Ring and launching said subtle rebellion against the Greater Will, Two Fingers, and Elden Beast + Radagon.
We also know that Marika was already imprisoned in the Erdtree and Melina only appears in the story AFTER the Shattering so we know she's referring to either the GEQ or Marika here.
That's the thing I am not saying she had children before that. I am saying the Dusk-Eyed Queen/Gloam-Eyed Queen and her cabal of Godskins came to be some time after this.
The GEQ and Marika both came about the same time though, exactly the same time as one another.
Farum Azula, and the Dragon Lord, existed before the Erdtree. They predate the Golden Order, and the Elden Ring, by a significant margin. The appearance of the Elden Beast and the Erdtree came about after this, and the ancient dragons tried to destroy it. Which is what led up to the war with the Golden Order in the first place. Since they were trying to protect it from the dragons.
The dragons are said to even "predate" time, iirc
@OtherGalaxy has the lore thing for that. We know they were born from the Crucible and not the Erdtree, the age of the dragons only declined with their unnamed god leaving. You can also see the connection in how the Omens and Misbegotten as well as the Crucible Knights have horns and more draconic mutations or powers which allows them to magically manifest dragonic claws, tails, and wings.
Farum Azula being out of time due to Placidusax who is hopelessly awaiting the return of his god was after the dragons were repulsed in the first Defense of Lyendell and then the subsequent war happened until Godwyn prevented Godfrey and Marika from genociding them after Placidusax was defeated by Godfrey.
That's only if Rogier is wrong, and recorded history isn't what most people think it is. Otherwise, Godwyn is actually the first dead deity alongside Ranni. Who died at the exact same time as him.
Rogier is wrong because he doesn't know anything about Ranni and his information is coming from his years interacting and fighting Those Who Live In Death with the D Twins. The golden centipedes, which are living evidence of the Death Mark curse, represents half of death when Godwyn and Ranni, were the first two demigods to be killed; one physically (Ranni) and one spiritually (Godwyn). He knows nothing of this which is why his information is not fully correct.
Probably on purpose too. Since I imagine that Ranni also wanted to fracture the curse mark for whatever reason. That, or it could have been an entire accident when it fractured at that point when both of them died. It's hard to say because the game is intentionally ambiguous.
The curse mark didn't even exist until the Night of the Black Knives and her and Godywn's mutual deaths; her only motivation was to escape being a candidate of the Greater Will since she seems to hate it.
That's because Ranni likes to speak in half truths, and never reveals the full truth up front. She also likes to deceive by telling said half truths. She will tell you some things, and then omit other things. Only revealing everything when absolutely necessary. Which makes it hard to take Ranni's word at face value.
Which I agree with you on, Ranni does things for the sake of her own benefit ultimately and uses Iji, Blaidd, the one sorcerer dude, and the player was puppets to get what she wanted.
The fragments were from the black blade. Since we see that it is in a sorry state, and it's cracked in several places at the edges of it. It looks like someone took a chisel to it, and hammered at it. That's probably how Ranni got those fragments.
We just don't know how she got it or the size of them, only that a second time Malekith seemed to be duped and someone nabbed a potion of its power to steal and share to kill other demigods.
The only other dead deities we know of are Marika's children, and the Fell God. According to that description in the shield. The Scarlet Rot was sealed away by the Nox Swordstresses in the Lake of Rot, and the Formless Mother is still alive. And we know by that same description that Marika murdered the Fell God. Unless she is actually the Dusk-Eyed Queen but I highly doubt that.
Nox Swordstresses? I only remember it being stated that a "blind swordsman" implied to be from somewhere beyond the Lands Between, defeated and sealed the Scarlet God in the Lake of Rot. All of the Outer Gods barring the Fell God seem to be doing fine, then again despite that it says that the Fell God still lives through teh Fire Giants and its incantations.
Yeah, I saw the excerpt now. And yes, the Storm Lord was likely the leader of the Fire Giants. However, another thing to note is that after Godfrey did this he was banished for his lack of grace.
Marika took his grace. Then he was banished along with his warriors to become the First Tarnished. This was after the wars with the Giants, Dragons, and conquering all of Limgrave and most other territory in the Lands Between.
They created the Baleful Shadow. Which looked almost exactly like Blaidd, and they're the correspondents of the Greater Will. How most people communicate with it in the first place. Just like how the Three Fingers is the correspondent of the Frenzied Flame.
Unless you subscribe to the theory that Enia and the other Finger Reader Crones are lying about being ability to translate and communicate with the Fingers.
I am not sure this invasion happened during Marika and Godwyn's war against the Fire Giants. It likely happened afterward. Since it's noted that after defeating the Storm Lord? That Godfrey lost his grace for whatever reason. Which might mean the war with the ancient dragons happened before this. Since we know Godwyn died during the beginning of the Golden Age of the Erdtree, and that he was the first recorded death of any sort of god dying. We also know his corpse is at the base of the Erdtree. At the very bottom of it underground near where Nokron is. Suggesting a huge lapse in time.
The way I've read the lore it should go timeline wise:
- post GEQ + Apostles vs Marika + Malekith
- Godfrey shows up
- Godfrey starts conquering swathes of territory in the Lands Between
- Godfrey marries Marika; Godfrey then goes to war with the Fire Giants and Giants; Marika slays the Fell God and Godfrey kills the Storm Lord unless said Storm Lord is a legendary persona who has nothing to do with the giants
- The Golden Order's power base is established in Lyendell which is made their capital for the Elden Lord and Empyrean
- Godwyn and later the Fell Omen twins, Morgott and Mogh are born
- Dragons invade and assault the capital in the first defense of Lyendell
- Dragons are repulsed
- Godfrey and Godwyn lead a campaign against them which culminates in Godwyn defeating Fortissax and Godfrey defeated Placidusax
- There are no longer any great foes for Godfrey to face and Marika banishes him because likely Sarosh simply CANNOT truly contain Godfrey's rage and power effectively in an age of the Golden Order fundamentalist
- Radagon leaves Rennala and his children in Caria to become the second Elden Lord
- Eventually after the twins Miquella and Malenia are born, Godwyn is assassinated
That's because Radagon wanted to incorporate it into the Golden Order, and learned both incantations and sorcery. Which is noted in Radagon's Icon. He sought to complete himself because he was no longer whole, and I assume that's because he was split from Marika already.
Like I said before, Radagon and Marika were never originally one person split in two. Marika hated glintstone and moon based sorcery that the Carian mages, the Carian knights, Cuckoo/Glinstone knights, as well as the scholars of Raya Lucaria's Academy all used. Said magic and sorcery was forbidden and banned in the rest of the Lands Between but NOT in Caria/Liurnia where Rennala reigned and Caria maintained nominal independence as a separate kingdom from Lyendell.
Also Goldmask's fundamentalism directly implies Radagon and Marika were not of one mind about how they interrupted the Greater Will's "laws".
I don't really see Radagon only being as powerful as Rennala though, and it's noted to be extremely strange that he was chosen as consort. When you talk to Miriel about it. Which only makes sense if it's a special circumstance.
By feats Radagon has nothing on Rennala or Godfrey for that matter and while he was famed as a legendary champion of the Golden Order, his accomplishments are also lesser.
>Godfrey successfully wipes out the Fire Giants
>Godfrey successful subjugates the dragons and defeats the Dragon Lord
>Godfrey successfully conquerors most of the world
>Godfrey's first born son is the only member from Godfrey's side of Marika's family to also bare the title of "The Golden" and Godwyn is the most favored child of Marika
>Radagon fails to beat Caria which had less than 20 Carian Royal knights, in two separate wars
>Radagon's accomplishments and accolades even to his own son, Radahn, are not enough that Radahn hero-worships Godfrey/Horah Loux, names and themes his own army of that of the Lion, in honor of Godfrey and his greatest hero is Godfrey
That was Ranni's Divine Tower. I am talking about Radahn's Divine Tower in Caelid. Where we see both the Redmanes, black flame monks, and a Godskin Apostle at the bottom of it. All occupying the same Divine Tower, and defending the Godslayer's Great Sword. Which is all very unusual. Unless they are somehow allied with each other, and have a similar goal in mind. The Godskin Noble was at Ranni's Divine Tower in Liurna.
There is one Black Flame monk at the entrance before the room you find and fight a single Godskin Apostle, otherwise the Redmanes have nothing in the lore or story in Caelid referencing stuff to my knowledge talking about any collaboration with the Apostles. Only thing you can even find at Redmane Castle itself is a few Moon items clearly showing Radahn still cared about Caria and his mother, Rykard also has portraits of Radahn in the manor at Mt. Gelmir.
Here's the thing he was already noted to be her or part of her during his reign as the second Elden Lord. Not after the shattering. As I noted in the above video. When you follow up on the lead that Miriel gives you at the Church of Vows? The secret is that Radagon is Marika, and that statue was made before the shattering.
The secret is no one knows that Radagon and Marika were fused into one person. Like I said, Gywn, the Turtle Pope, the painter, Melina's statements, and the Queen's Bedchamber message all say "we are yet to become one, you are yet to become a God" to Radagon. Radagon already existed as a champion within Godfrey's army most likely when Godfrey showed up with his warriors and was fighting in the war with the giants and Caria.
I'm just not sold they were always one person.
Also this is getting way tl ; dr
ha
