One Piece Tier/Feat/Canon/Toei Discussion Thread Part 3: Road to star level
- Thread starter El Hermano
- Start date
Fist of Love > Thunder Bagua
toeiland crossover luffy and toriko actually get the solar system+ and mftl scaling
the reason?
4:22 - 4:38
big toro causally tanks toeiland ssj1 gotenk's ghost kamikaze attack and then drains him, he also drained toeiland ultimate gohan
later
after a difficult fight
9:20 - 11:02
luffy and toriko did more damage than toeiland gotenks to super big toro (his final form) by using their full power and contributing to the final combined attack
ssj3 goku obviously ended him though, with that spirit bomb + super kame combo though = toeiland goku time and all
ps: at first, kakarot was holding back against luffy and toriko, overall, because toei didn't want the crossover to end, in the first minutes, lmao
posting also this here, about toeiland crossover oda piece, it is one of my old posts
Those links will be dead in the water once his bot gets too trigger happy. They'll need wholesale copy and pasted eventually.Idk. But I was just going to link my, yours, and GMs calcs in that most.
I was going to make a thread for all your calcs. Wasn't sure if they got to you or not in the NF snap.
I'll deal with my own stuff if nothing else. I'm still there. I haven't violated shit to warrant a ban in a decade of posting. I have a single 3 day ban from back in 2012 :lmao
Can't imagine even his clown ass will take me down over just existing on this platform too. Its no different from me having a platform on Comicvine.
El Hermano
Acclaimed
NOPE.All I know is
Benn Beckman
Katakuri
Smoothie=Cracker=King=Marco=Lucky Roo
Snack=Queen=Jozu=Yasopp
1 arm Perospero=Jack=Vista
Yes. Perospero raises the bar of Sweet Commanders
El Hermano
Acclaimed
Eh, no? On what basis exactly? Just because he might be pretty strong doesn't mean he completely bumps up the Sweet Commanders. He most fucking definitely not putting Katakuri above King, not to mention freaking Marco.
Perospero Vivre Card databook says he's one the most skilled member of BMP.
Cracker and Smoothie Vivre Card databook say they're 1 of the strongest members of BMP.
The fact that Perospero with 1 arm looks stronger than Jack, that shows Snack is on Queen tier even though he might be weaker. Cracker and Smoothie are on King tier even though King might be above them a bit so yes Perospero hype put Katakuri above King.
Cracker and Smoothie Vivre Card databook refer to their overall power level while Perospero VC refer to his df mastery so yes Perospero<SC and Perospero hype=Sweet Commanders hype. Marco is overrated. Only fought admiral a bit. Even DR Luffy fought FUjitora a bit but that doesn't put Luffy above YC1.
El Hermano
Acclaimed
There's a reason why he was described as "one of the most skilled" and not like Cracker and Smoothie as "one of the strongest". It's also a pretty vague description, since there are a lot of combatants in BM's crew, dozens of them are her own children. One of the strongest is too vague. If it specifically refers to one of the most skilled as in his DF mastery that still doesn't make him one of the strongest.
Looks stronger than Jack? How come? Because he knocked down an already injured Neko who just got done being patched up after fighting an intense battle against a Yonko?
Sure, he's still rather impressive for someone who's not a YC, he's probably relatively close to YC3. But no reason to assume he's equal to Jack. And his artificial arm doesn't seem to debilitate him. It appears to function like a normal arm. Just because Perospero might be close to the likes of Cracker and Jack doesn't put Katakuri above King, there's no actual, concrete reason to believe that other than the fact that you'd like it to be true.
Marco blocked attacks from Admirals, push 2 of them back, tanked a punch from Garp and then proceeded to manhandle 2 YCs.
This is above anything Katakuri's ever shown.
King is pushing back and challenging a Zoro who was not only deemed a threat to Kaido by wielding Enma at one point, but also blocked a serious, combined attack from Kaido and BM. That alone makes him stronger than WCI Luffy. He also seems to subconsciously enhance his attacks with CoC.
DR Luffy got knocked the fuck away by Fuji with a single swing of his sword the moment Fuji decided to do so. Luffy grew on Fujitora from the get-go. It was never a serious fight, it was more like Fujitora confirming Luffy was worth believing in. That's quite the false comparison.
There's nothing vague about it. Cracker and Smoothie VC refer them as 1 of the strongest member of BMP while Perospero VC refer him as 1 of the most skilled member of BMP. Cracker and Smoothie VC refer to their overall power level while Perospero VC refer to his df mastery therefore he's stated to be 1 of the most skilled member of BMP so Cracker and Smoothie>Perospero. Not so hard to accept.
Cracker and Smoothie are the only ones in VC who are said to be 1 of the strongest member of BMP beside Katakuri. Now show me in VC who are referred to be 1 of Big Mom strongest children/BMP strongest members beside Cracker, Smoothie and Katakuri.
Cracker is far above Perospero. Cracker VC say he's 1 of the strongest member of BMP while Perospero VC says he's one of the most skilled member of BMP. This is simple logic and it's only confusing for people who can't accept that Cracker is far above Jack and Katakuri is above King.
You also forgot that Neko got treatment while Perospero didn;t take a rest after sneak attacked by sulong Wanda and Carrot, fought Sulong Wanda and Carrot, got hit by Queen accidentally, helped Queen against Sanji and Chopper and also Perospero got sneak attacked by Neko before their 1 on 1 fight and still put him on the floor while Jack with help can't put Inu on the floor.
Perospero with 1 arm looked stronger than Jack which put Cracker much stronger than Jack and Queen and that alone put Katakuri who is several tiers above Cracker above King.
He blocked Akainu with his df to form a barrier that's no different than what previous barrier df did to Oden. Blocked Oden slash and that doesn't put previous user of barrier df on Oden level. Marco didn't damage any admiral. Luffy during Dressrosa bruised Fujitora. What Marco did during MF wasn't impressive. Garp bruised Marco.
Marco did 0 damage to King and Queen while Sanji is damaging Queen now. Sure Marco hurt Queen but that damage disappeared a chapter later.
Pushing admirals means nothing. Luffy knocked down Dragon Kaido with Elephant Gun and the same Elephant Gun got overpowered by Cracker. Marco ap is barely above Sanji.
Zoro used Ashura to scar Kaido and King is fighting non Ashura Zoro so Zoro feat scarring Kaido can't be used to hype King. Zoro only blocked Hakai for 1 second and got saved by Law afterward. Zoro feat blocking Hakai feat is overrated. Zoro with Drake can't overpower Apoo. Do you think Apoo can block Hakai for several seconds or minutes?
While Luffy feat dodging Thunder Bagua can be used to hype Katakuri since Katakuri is much faster than base Luffy and can shape shift his body so Katakuri can dodge Thunder Bagua without injuries. King hasn;t shown ability to dodge or tank Thunder Bagua when Marco knee drop offed him for 1 chapter.
That attack did 0 damage and Luffy was also injured after fighting Doflamingo. Meanwhile Marco never fought Kizaru 1 on 1. After his interaction with Kizaru on the air, he didn't fight Kizaru until chapter 568. Before chapter 568, at the end of chapter 567 Marco got smacked by Garp while Kizaru fought WBP members including Rakuyp so Marco joined Rakuyo to fight Kizaru.
Kizaru was never serious against Marco. Akainu was the only serious admiral at MF. Meanwhile Fujitora intended to capture Luffy but he still can't dodge Luffy Elephant Gun and got bruised. Luffy was also injured after fighting Doflamingo and didn't use G4 and Luffy also said his next attack loudly to Fujitora so Luffy was more nerfed fighting Fujitora and that still doesn't put Luffy above YC1 so again nothing what Marco did at MF put him above Katakuri.
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El Hermano
Acclaimed
-Sure, they are some of the strongest among their own, that means jack shit to the other crews. As I said, Perospero might be closer to YC3 in terms of power, not there, but relatively close. Never said he's their equal.
-And Neko still battled Jack and Kaido, the latter being far superior to anyone Perospero ever got hit by. My point still stands.
Perospero being impressive doesn't put the rest automatically above King and Queen. They're on a level of their own, this much has been already established. We've seen Perospero getting hit a few times by far lesser opponents, one of them was him being collateral damage.
-Pushing Admirals and surviving their attacks means more than anything Katakuri's ever done, lol. One of those attacks was directed at WB himself, by Kizaru. He physically overpowered both Queen and King. He restrained them and sent them flying and even drew blood iirc. Kinda hard to tell in King's case when he's actually injured if he gets hit by blunt force, since he's practically covered in leather from head to toe.
Marco blitzing King is only a testement of his power. Neither Katakuri's ever shown the ability to dodge Thunder Bagua. He barely dodged base Luffy without his FS, which again, can't save your ass too much if the speed gap is there. Marco reacted to a LS attack, that alone exceeds anything Katakuri's shown. You're making head-canon statements as if they were facts. You can't say "King hasn't shown this and that" and use it to discredit him, while saying "Katakuri can do this and that" while he never showed the ability to do so. Using WCI base Luffy as the reason to that is false(I addressed it later in this comment).
-That Zoro's main power came from wielding Enma as well, which he still does. Also, the instant Zoro got serious he got rid of Apoo. Unless you somehow missed(or perhaps selectively ignored)this scene:
-Implying that base, injured WCI Luffy didn't dodge Katakuri's attacks when he managed to use FS for a split second. Yeah, if he could do that back then in base he could DEFINITELY pull this off now with rather ease:
The notion that current Luffy who possess FS almost/pretty much on the same level couldn't keep up with Katakuri is rather ridiculous. Katakuri himself relies a bit too much on his FS, to such an extent base Luffy managed to draw blood from him the moment he stopped using it. The only reason I could see Katakuri potentially avoiding TB is because he could shapeshift instead of having to physically cross a distance to avoid it. That, once again, doesn't mean much.
-Fujitora never intended to harm Luffy to begin with, he just blocked his attacks and when he decided Luffy is worth the gamble he pretty much allowed him to escape. That "bruise" means absolutely nothing. Fujitora could have ended it there and then with a single blow if he felt like it.
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Perospero is closer to Jack but no to Cracker. Cracker VC refer to him as 1 of the strongest member of BMP while Perospero VC refer to him as 1 of the most skilled member of BMP. Cracker/Smoothie>Perospero. perospero hype put Cracker and Smoothier above Queen and on King tier.
Your point doesn't stand when Neko got treatment while Perospero didn't take a rest after sneak attacked by Suulong, fought Sulong, hit accidentally by Queen, helped Queen vs Sanji and Chopper and sneak attacked by Neko. Neko also got advantage by sneak attacking Pero first yet Neko was the one who was put on the floor while Jack with help can't put down Inu and admitted 1 more attack from Inu would have killed him.
Again pushing means nothing Luffy also knocked down Dragon Kaido with his Eleohant Gun and that Elphant Gun got overpowered by Cracker. Marco only stood in front of WB to tank Yasakani no Magatama which was targeted by Kizatu to WB and that's no different than what previous barrier df user did to block Oden attack which was aimed at Orochi. That scene doesn't represent Marco physical strength but rather represent Marco defensive capability due to his df. Do you even bother to answer my argument instead of repeating the same thing and adding your own argument which doesn;t even answer my replies to you?
Marco only blocked Akainu fist once and that's no different than what previous barrier df user did to Oden blocking his attack. Why did you ignore that? Marco never fought Kizaru 1 on 1. After their interaction on air, their only interaction after that was at chapter 568 when Marco fought Kizaru after Kizaru fought Rakuyo and other WBP. Still ignoring this point?
Marco did 0 damage to admiral. Luffy bruised admiral. DR Luffy did better than MF Marco. And that Luffy still lost to Cracker so again nothing what Marco did at MF put him above Katakuri.
Marco used his df to restrain King and Queen. Not his physical strength. He can't even damage King and Queen. Marco can't break King mask. Drawing blood from Queen because Marco targeted Queen neck with shockwave while Chopper casual slap bled Queen so the difference between Marco and Monster Chopper ap? Marco had to target Queen neck with shockwave to bleeed him while Monster Chopper casual slap to Queen face was enough to bleed him.
Your posts doesn;t answer how Zoro with Drake help can't push back Apoo. Yeah beat Apoo with sneak attack and with his swords similar with kid with a gun is more lethal than an adult without a weapon and that doesn't answer my post which says Zoro with his physical strength can't overpower Apoo physical strength with Drake help which shows Zoro feat blocking Hakai which requires physical strength can be replicated by someone with similar physical strength or higher physical strength than Zoro.-That Zoro's main power came from wielding Enma as well, which he still does. Also, the instant Zoro got serious he got rid of Apoo. Unless you somehow missed(or perhaps selectively ignored)this scene:
Apoo was barely standing afterwards, and he was such an easy target Drake just picked him up and gnawed on him:
Katakuri beat the dog shit out of base Luffy even after Luffy got FS. And even when Luffy became much faster with Snakeman, Katakuri still outpunch Luffy. Base Luffy currently is still much slower than Katakuri. Luffy only trained his CoA in Udon. And the fact that base Luffy can dodge Thunder Bagua partially shows Katakuri can dodge Thunder Bagua 100% without injuries. That put him above Marco and King who lack CoO to dodge it.-Implying that base, injured WCI Luffy didn't dodge Katakuri's attacks when he managed to use FS for a split second. Yeah, if he could do that back then in base(and from a far closer range)he could DEFINITELY pull this off now with rather ease:
The notion that current Luffy who possess FS almost/pretty much on the same level couldn't keep up with Katakuri is rather ridiculous. Katakuri himself relies a bit too much on his FS, to such an extent base Luffy managed to draw blood from him the moment he stopped using it. The only reason I could see Katakuri potentially avoiding TB is because he could shapeshift instead of having to physically cross a distance to avoid it. That, once again, doesn't mean much.
That's headcannon though. When you block attack, you try your best to block the attack if you don't want to get hurt unless you are masochist so you block half assesly but nothing in the manga states Fujitora is a masochist. When Luffy came at him from the front and Fujitora CoO specialist can't dodge it but can only block it and still got bruised so that still hype Luffy ap and speed.
That bruise means a lot when Marco can;t even damage an admiral lol and nothing in the manga states Fujitora can finish off Luffy whenever he wanted to. Luffy was injured after fighting Doflamingo, said his next attack to Fujitora who tried to capture him and still did better than Marco at MF lol. So again Marco feat at MF doesn't put him above Katakuri.
And it's funny how you didn't address my point that Luffy was also nerfed fighting Fujitora yet you only mentioned Fujitora held back a lot when nothing in the manga states that.
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Fujitora was obviously holding back becase he let Luffy escape and didn’t unleash his full gravity powers
El Hermano
Acclaimed
-Again? As I said, Pero is below YC3, he's also below Jack. He's not that far off, but he's below them. This DB statement is irrelevant. There's a notable difference between Jack and his elder "brothers". They're significantly stronger than him, seeing as he shits his pants at their presence. Even if Jack were equal to Pero(which I disagree with atm), that still doesn't make someone like King automatically inferior to his Sweet Commander counterpart. This would simply imply the gap is potentially greater in Kaido's crew.
-"Treatment". As in was wrapped up with some bandages after receiving direct hits from the strongest creature in the world. Pero got a few small hits that seemed to heal rather quick. Neko was still visibly injured. He slapped him across the room and he had time to get back up. The entire battle got off-paneled. Jack literally fought the Samurai on the roof earlier and was jumped by Neko and Inu in Sulong form at the same time. He was seriously injured himself by 2 incredibly powerful opponents. Pero also states how lucky he is to Neko, meaning that he knew he'd get fucking rammed if he had to face Sulong Neko.
-Marco's DF is still a part of his overall abilities. I could say the same fucking thing about Katakuri "Oh, he could pull this off just because of his DF, this doesn't count". Can you get more dishonest than that?
Marco was visibly HOLDING THEM at bay, his DF was never stated to give him some form of physical power boost, lol.
Making someoen bleed with a mere shockwave is far more impressive than making someone bleed with a direct hit. So, thanks for further proving my point.
-He still casually oneshotted him. Apoo got a direct hit on Zoro as well and it wasn't enough to put him out of the fight. Zoro was conserving his power for the rooftop. If he used a fracture of it on Apoo he could have sliced through him, sneak attack or not.
-Literally just showed you base Luffy using actual FS dodging a flurry of punches from Katakuri, proving that current Luffy who's faster and had mastered FS could easily tango with him. But go ahead, ignore it and reiterate the same headcanon nonsense.
-Luffy "bruised" him, lmao. Yeah, a "bruise" that literally disappeared the very next page as if it never existed to begin with. If we go by that fucking notion, preskip Luffy also drew blood from Garp, Jozu drew a drop of blood from Aokiji. Oh, and that bruise counts and IS hype despite being barely visible and disappearing in the very next page during that scuffle, but Marco drawing blood from Queen means nothing because it healed during their battle? How fucking dishonest.
Fujitora had no intention of harming Luffy. He could have induced that attack with Haki if he really wanted to. I suggest you go read that chapter(799). Fujitora began to admire Luffy during that interaction and had no intentions of harming him.
"That Elephant gun got overpowerd by Cracker" Implying Haki was not LITERALLY stated to constantly evolve during extreme situations. Wano Luffy was superior to WCI Luffy from the get go.
This is getting truly tiresome.
El Hermano
Acclaimed
"Bruise" lmao. I'm not sure it even meets the criteria for a bruise.
Nah Perospero put Neko on the floor even though Neko got the advantage via sneak attack while Jack with help can't put down Inu. You can't debunk that though. jack=Perospero which means Cracker and Smoothie are above Jack who=Perospero.
And again Neko got treatment while Perospero didn't get rest after sneak attacked by sulong, fought them, hit by Queen via Sanji, helped Queen vs Sanji and Chopper
While it's true the gap between Jack and Queen/King is big, the gap between Snack and Smoothie/Cracker and Katakuri is also big. So if Jack=Perospero, that means
Katakuri
Gap
Smoothie/CRacker=King
Gap
Snack=Queen
Gap
Perospero=Jack
Again ignoring what I said.
Perospero didn't get rest after sneak attacked by sulong, fought them, hit by Queen via Sanji, helped Queen vs Sanji and Chopper
Neko got advantage via sneak attack,
End result Neko was put on the floor while Jack with help can't put down Inu. That shows Perospero=Jack.
So ignoring my comparison with previous barrier df user who blocked Oden attack. By your logic was that previous barrier df user YC1 too since he without effort blocked Oden attacks? Marco only blocked AKainu attack monce just like previous barrier df user did to Oden.
What did I prove when you cant answer that Chopper with casual slap bled Queen while Marco had to target Queen neck and attacked it with shockwave to make him bleed?
Doesn't answer why Zoro can't overpower Apoo with his physical strength when you hyped Zoro blocking Hakai feat. The fact that Zoro physical strength can't overpower Apoo showed Zoro hakai feat is nothing impressive since someone with similar physical strength like Zoro like Sweet Commanders and Calamities can block it too.
Nope Katakuri beat the dog shit out of FS base Luffy. Luffy only hit him once while Katakuri hit FS base Luffy multiple times. Katakuri is much faster than base FS Luffy.
Katakuri beat Luffy with FS too much that he asked Luffy to get up again lol.
You can keep being salty since you can't accept that Katakuri is the only YC who can dodge Thunder Bagua without injuries since slower Luffy can dodge Thunder bagua.
Did Fujitora bruise Luffy? Fujitora did 0 damage to injured Luffy who didn't use G4. Jozu drew blood because he sneak attacked Aokiji. Luffy drew blood from Garp because garp let him do it. On the other hand Luffy came at Fujitora from the front at Fujitora CoO specialist can only block it and still got bruised.
Marco drew blood from Queen means nothing because Chopper easily replicated his feat. Marco had to target Queen neck with shockwave attack while Chopper casual slap at Queen face was enough to make him bleed.
Again what I compared when Luffy bruised Fujitora was Luffy feat with Marco feat not their ap comparison.
Fujitora admired Luffy after he was bruised by Elephant Gun, after he was pushed back by G2, after Luffy tanked his Raging Tiger so before that Fujitora was serious to catch Luffy.
Wano Luffy improved his CoA in Udon. Post WCI, his CoA only got stronger slightly and Cracker would still overpower his Elephant Gun.
Reread the manga
