Touma and his Interactions with other Attacks

[Astaro]

Anyway, to give my thoughts on this thread

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/imagine-breaker-toaru-tries-to-nullify-these-attacks-effects.1191665/#post-105649562

Touma faces the following attacks and tries to block them with his one and only Imagine Breaker.

R1: 200% Hollow Purple (Gojo Satoru)

Negates

R2: Excalibur beam (Saber Artoria Pendragon)

Negates

R3: Enuma Elish (Gilgamesh)

Negates

R4: Unlimited Void (Gojo Satoru)

Negates it before the Domain can even be fully formed the moment is touches Touma

R5: World Slash (Ryomen Sukuna)

Negates

R6: Ars Armadel Salomonis (Goetia)

Negates. Touma stopped Gungnir. All of Type Moon put together doesn’t have the guns to punch through Touma

R7: Gold Experience Requiem (Giorno Giovanna)

Negates. Especially if we throw in side material which all but confirms Imagine Breaker doesn’t care about the laws of cause and effect being controlled

R8: Almighty (Yhwach)

This one is kinda tricky since there isn’t really anything for Touma to touch or negate. At the very least, could be a similar case as with the Norse God Tyr where Touma isn’t affected. Almighty can’t do anything to Imagine Breaker itself either

R9: All Fiction (Misogi Kumagawa)

Same as the above with Yhwach more or less

R10: Mystic Eyes Of Death Perception (Ryougi Shiki)

Negates

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Aiwass is an extraterrestrial being. Besides, Aliens would be a product of natural evolution so I'm not seeing why it would be counted as supernatural. Now on to the parts I got from the Humorous Arguments thread-

Yeah Aliens are extraterrestrial beings and not of Earth but Superman is ultimately not having "unnatural means" to use his powers, it's just his biology acting towards the Yellow Sun giving him powers. It's like saying the Lantern Rings are unnatural powers when they are technology or Martian Manhunter has powers when again that's his alien biology at work.

Yeah, I've already mention in that thread that the user of MOEPD can get around Imagine Breaker by targeting Touma himself, but the very premise of the thread is if Imagine Breaker would negate the given powers in a straight clash.

Otherwise, people would be arguing about Yhwach simply blitzing Touma and punching his head away or Kumagawa simply using Bookmarker and erasing the time that action took to win instantly. The question here is if these powers can overpower Imagine Breaker's negation, not if the users of these powers can defeat Touma.

I mean I saw that thread too and your explanation was pretty half-assed... also, the main reason why I stated that is because even if we state MEoDP can be blocked by IB(Which it's not because MEoDP for all intents and purposes doesn't actually project anything, it just sees the Lines of Death that's always there), at the end of the day, Touma will have to deal with the users baring a knife, sword, gun or god knows what else onto him.
IB wouldn't probably have any Lines on it but that's it(And even then, that's still just a maybe considering on the user, Shiki Ryougi probably would even adapt to that considering what she is and MEoDP at the end of the day is connected to The Root on some level).

 

[Astaro]

Martian Manhunter should work at being negated since his powers are psionic in nature, something Touma’s IB consistently negated

Especially under the general consensus for debate where powers work as their intended between universes so long as the feats match up for the sake of Vs Debates

MM himself though won’t be harmed by IB since he himself is a biological alien

 

[Darth Zion]

you quoted the entire thing and said "never happened"

I quoted this exact part-

no i remember she kill him with her arrows, hell she said she had killed many time before then or something

And responded to it by saying it never happened, which is objectively true since Touma never died to her arrows and Othinus was actively keeping him alive before that. What else do you want me to say in response to someone making a claim that never happened in the first place?

It would be one thing if he cited something, dude just came in and said Othinus murdered Touma with her arrows and killed him billions of times before that without any explanation or citation- I respond to a low-effort argument with an equally low-effort response. But yeah, I can see what you're saying- I should explain my argument properly if only to prevent my own posts from being undermined.

Superman is ultimately not having "unnatural means" to use his powers, it's just his biology acting towards the Yellow Sun giving him powers. It's like saying the Lantern Rings are unnatural powers when they are technology or Martian Manhunter has powers when again that's his alien biology at work.

I agree with that- there might be some extreme cases where IM might work on aliens, but those would require their biology to work on separate physics.

Touma will have to deal with the users baring a knife, sword, gun or god knows what else onto him.

That's not the premise of that thread- it's not a fight, it's a thread on power interaction. It's questioning whether Imagine Breaker would be able to negate those powers in a straight clash, not if their users can get around IB using tricks or other weapons. Again, if that were the case then a fight against Yhwach would have just ended with Touma being punched to death.

IB wouldn't probably have any Lines on it but that's it

Yeah, that's probably what would happen. I don't exactly agree with Shiki being able to adapt to IB since I personally think it would fall under objects that lack a conventional end to their existence (like TYPES) but that's just speculation so I'm just gonna go along with your interpretation.

 

[Astaro]

I quoted this exact part-

And responded to it by saying it never happened, which is objectively true since Touma never died to her arrows and Othinus was actively keeping him alive before that. What else do you want me to say in response to someone making a claim that never happened in the first place?

It would be one thing if he cited something, dude just came in and said Othinus murdered Touma with her arrows and killed him billions of times before that without any explanation or citation- I respond to a low-effort argument with an equally low-effort response. But yeah, I can see what you're saying- I should explain my argument properly if only to prevent my own posts from being undermined.

I agree with that- there might be some extreme cases where IM might work on aliens, but those would require their biology to work on separate physics.

That's not the premise of that thread- it's not a fight, it's a thread on power interaction. It's questioning whether Imagine Breaker would be able to negate those powers in a straight clash, not if their users can get around IB using tricks or other weapons. Again, if that were the case then a fight against Yhwach would have just ended with Touma being punched to death.

Yeah, that's probably what would happen. I don't exactly agree with Shiki being able to adapt to IB since I personally think it would fall under objects that lack a conventional end to their existence (like TYPES) but that's just speculation so I'm just gonna go along with your interpretation.

Imagine Breaker wouldn’t have a concept of death

Literally destroying the entire cosmology and wiping the slate clean is the only method of destroying constants, which include Imagine Breaker

Only Coronzon’s accusations continued.

“It might look like the flow of time mercilessly wears down all things, but there is far too much exceptional salvation in this world: Imagine Breaker, the Magic Gods, the original grimoires, resurrected Lilith, Aiwass who resurrected her…and me, Great Demon Coronzon.”

“So you are aware you stand on the side of evil?”

“Of course. My job is to fix the circulation. And that creates the next age. Once, the majority of the Sephirah were under attack. If the Second Adam had not atoned with blood, the world would not have lasted this long. And the critical clogs are all born of knowledge. I am the Great Demon who protects the Abyss, that hidden division of the Sephiroth. Whatever my purpose is, I have undeniably been stained. …Thus, I will destroy it all. Myself and the entire Sephiroth that contains me are no exceptions. Partial destruction would be meaningless. If anything remains and an eternal distortion is born from that, then it will all happen again. I will eliminate the 10 spheres, the 22 pathways, and the hidden 11th symbol. Collisions between phases? Sparks and spray? You cannot save anyone if you only treat those symptoms. All of the fundamental clogs must be removed. All so we can pass the baton to whoever comes next.”

 

[xenos5]

Can Touma negate that which doesn't actually exist? Like Soft & Wet's Go Beyond Bubbles which are infinitely thin spinning lines.

That seems like it could be a workaround for me. If IB has a system by which it uses to detect what's natural and what isn't, then something that's nonexistent and therefore has no substance to it to negate seems like it could bypass it.

 

[Astaro]

He did negate teleportation, which has no mass or physical presence as the closest comparison

The boy who was running up this most ridiculous shortcut ever conceived wasn't holding any weapons. He didn't look like he had any amazing ability. However, he continued to dash up without any fear. He clenched his right fist as hard as rock as he headed towards the obviously abnormal space.

The distortion of the space reached its maximum less than a second later, cracking from inside.

At that moment, the boy swung his fist without any hesitation.

The abnormality seemed to be some sort of illusion. Though Musujime's attack was powerful, it didn't bring the sense of reality.

A mass of 4,520kg.

The boy's fist formed a terrifying hammer as it slammed at the huge mass.

BAM!! The boy's fist hit the middle.

The boy gritted his teeth. His fist ignored the change in space as it moved forward.

An amazing thing happened.

Suddenly, a sound of steel being hit could be heard. The originally distorted space seemed to be flattened by the boy's fist. The invisible thing that refracted the light seemed like it had been punched far away.

For a three-dimensional object to do a forced intervention on the eleventh-dimension spatial axis; Shirai, who had mastered these calculations, understood very well that this was like driving up the wrong way on a one-way road.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

That's not the premise of that thread- it's not a fight, it's a thread on power interaction. It's questioning whether Imagine Breaker would be able to negate those powers in a straight clash, not if their users can get around IB using tricks or other weapons. Again, if that were the case then a fight against Yhwach would have just ended with Touma being punched to death.

I'm pretty sure it's a straight up attack on Touma that IB has to block. Touma hasn't already put his guard up, just that IB has to stop the attack or not and the problem is that MEoDP isn't having anything for IB to work off of. A knife attack aided by MEoDP... is still a knife attack or done by a Katana or a Gun or anything the user can use right down to their finger tips.

It's similarly an issue with the Excalibur example people used in thinking it's a single straight attack when it's not(And if it was, Sefar would have instantly adapted to it rather than overloaded and died).

Yeah, that's probably what would happen. I don't exactly agree with Shiki being able to adapt to IB since I personally think it would fall under objects that lack a conventional end to their existence (like TYPES) but that's just speculation so I'm just gonna go along with your interpretation.

The main reason I state that is primarily because of the fact that MEoDP isn't some random ass ability but an ability connected to The Root itself(it's why they can see the Lines of Death at all on everything). I also don't buy that Imagine Breaker is beyond what the MEoDP can see because we do know that MEoDP users will ultimately learn of higher states of "death" the more they are immersed in it and TYPEs will take too long without having a Concept of Death latched onto them(Which does happen to ORT but due to it's absurd biology just took it and pulled an Arcueid to live). In a fashion, IB wouldn't have any Lines of Death because of it's nature but MEoDP doesn't cause death, it ends existences(death is just a side effect of that and it's why when Tohno/Ryougi cuts lines, the character can't regenerate the limb or anything, it's not dead, the existence of the character having the limb is gone).

There's nothing stopping a MEoDP user from just cutting Touma's forearm and hilariously just stopped him from ever attaching the limb again... though that would lead to the Dragons but at the same time, Ryougi and Tohno tend to go for the kill so...

 

[xenos5]

He did negate teleportation, which has no mass or physical presence as the closest comparison

From your quote it sounds like he's negating the distortion of space that is the mechanism behind the teleportation. So that could work against spatial erasure abilities in Jojo like Vanilla Ice's Cream or Okuyasu's The Hand. But the Go Beyond Bubbles don't really manipulate space in any way, they just bypass everything (including the natural Law of Calamity) by not existing.

 

[Darth Zion]

Can Touma negate that which doesn't actually exist?

Other than negating fate, space, and time which don't have a mass- the closest example would be when the Dragon inside Touma's arm managed to interact with Johann dispersing himself into clouds that make him comparable to the unobservable Schrodinger's cat which ceases to exist inside a closed box system unless observed.

I'm pretty sure it's a straight up attack on Touma that IB has to block

If that's the case, then I suppose it depends on the starting distance. Shiki would beat him if he stands far and he might have a chance if he's in close range but he would lose most of the times.

 

[xenos5]

Other than negating fate, space, and time which don't have a mass- the closest example would be when the Dragon inside Touma's arm managed to interact with Johann dispersing himself into clouds that make him comparable to the unobservable Schrodinger's cat which ceases to exist inside a closed box system unless observed.

From how I understand the thought experiment the cat is supposed to be in a simultaneous state of existing and not existing until observed. So in that case what Touma would be negating isn't something that is actually completely nonexistent, but something that is Quantumly Uncertain.

I think that distinction does matter, since at least when it comes to the Go Beyond Bubbles their nonexistence is stated to let them surpass the logic of the world and be unaffected by physical laws like Calamity.

 

[Astaro]

"Ha ha. That may be difficult for someone poisoned by science in Academy City, but you
must have always felt that you were burdened with misfortune."
"…"
"There is such a thing as unavoidable destiny. There are powerful rails that cannot be
overcome by an individual's decisions. But even that is ultimately nothing more than the
result of an unseen clash between the opinions of Magic Gods. Of course, we have no
intention of harming any specific individual. In fact, the individuals clinging to this puny
planet never enter our field of vision. Still, our actions are constantly affecting the outside
world and make great changes in the world. It can be quite a problem."
Talk of fortune and misfortune reminded Kamijou of the Saints in addition to himself.
One of them was so constantly dealt a lucky hand that she feared those around her would
always be dealt an unlucky hand.
"That is the same," readily stated the High Priest. "It is true Saints fall on the fortunate
side of things, but they had no say in being born a Saint. That means there were some
larger rails in place there. The very fact that they receive that fortune as Saints was
determined by that unshakeable destiny."
At that point, the mummy laughed dryly.
"Although, if we're talking about destiny, then you would be the sole exception. Thanks to
your Imagine Breaker, even the vague power of us Magic Gods is uniformly leveled out.
That keeps any large waves away from you alone and keeps you in constant misfortune."

^ Well, GG for Yhwach. Almighty has nothing on this

 

[Darth Zion]

Almighty has nothing on this

A reminder that Magic Gods imposed date on the universe from their subconscious thoughts alone when they were sealed in a phase above the concept of space and time.

So in that case what Touma would be negating isn't something that is actually completely nonexistent, but something that is Quantumly Uncertain.

Other examples of interaction with non-existent objects include Crowley entering the Hidden World and Magic Gods creating it.

Not sure how Imagine Breaker scales to these feats though.

 

[Astaro]

A reminder that Magic Gods imposed date on the universe from their subconscious thoughts alone when they were sealed in a phase above the concept of space and time.

Other examples of interaction with non-existent objects include Crowley entering the Hidden World and Magic Gods creating it.

Not sure how Imagine Breaker scales to these feats though.

I know. The range at which they affect everything else just by existing is insane.

Especially when the whole purpose of the Hidden World Phase is for them to avoid getting interfering with the rest of the verse

"The gathering of Magic Gods known as Gremlin could also be called the keyboard connected to the world and to destiny. Simply having someone push or pull at it is enough to distort the current age. It isn't an issue of any individual. We are all bringing about change. And we do so whether we continue forward or turn back. No, even doing nothing affects it."

 

[Masterblack06]

Anyway, to give my thoughts on this thread

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/imagine-breaker-toaru-tries-to-nullify-these-attacks-effects.1191665/#post-105649562

Same as the above with Yhwach more or less

I think it depends on how All Fiction are used to attack. Deleting his organs, his memories, his conciousness. Those should be able to get around IB's protects. with the case of his organs being gone or his conciousness one of the few ways of keeping him from using IB to fix himself. Removing his past so he ceases to exist might be another way since idk if Touma has paradox immunity like Sol Badguy does

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

If that's the case, then I suppose it depends on the starting distance. Shiki would beat him if he stands far and he might have a chance if he's in close range but he would lose most of the times.

Both Shikis and the Deino that has it are... really, really fucking fast and have some obscene training due to basically being Demon Hunters in their blood(literally) and other being a super advanced dinosaur who can wield a gun.

 

[Astaro]

I think it depends on how All Fiction are used to attack. Deleting his organs, his memories, his conciousness. Those should be able to get around IB's protects. with the case of his organs being gone or his conciousness one of the few ways of keeping him from using IB to fix himself. Removing his past so he ceases to exist might be another way since idk if Touma has paradox immunity like Sol Badguy does

I mentioned it before Kumagawa has multiple answers and ways to just hit Touma. All I’ve argued is that he’s not going to be able to do anything directly to Imagine Breaker, which is what that thread was about

He also can be paradoxed, at least by a powerful enough being like Othinus since one of the methods she chose to kill him was possibly rewriting something in the past about him and controlling his fate

Both Shikis and the Deino that has it are... really, really fucking fast and have some obscene training due to basically being Demon Hunters in their blood(literally) and other being a super advanced dinosaur who can wield a gun.

Touma’s also really, really fast as well.

Since like, the first volume

 

[Masterblack06]

I mentioned it before Kumagawa has multiple answers and ways to just hit Touma. All I’ve argued is that he’s not going to be able to do anything directly to Imagine Breaker, which is what that thread was about

He also can be paradoxed, at least by a powerful enough being like Othinus since one of the methods she chose to kill him was possibly rewriting something in the past about him and controlling his fate

I know, I was just giving a more detailed example since I dont want goobers coming in here and misinterpreting your words

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Negates

It's not a singular attack, it's a continuous attack, that's why Sefar ultimately died to it despite absorbing some of it.

Negates

A full power Enuma Elish would destroy the entire area around Touma, it wouldn't be just aimed at Touma and it would send him to Primordial Earth as it did the Angra Mainyu Shades in HA.

Negates. Touma stopped Gungnir. All of Type Moon put together doesn’t have the guns to punch through Touma

Touma dies to the heat of AAS like he should with Excalibur and Enuma Elish if Mash did lol.

 

[Astaro]

It's not a singular attack, it's a continuous attack, that's why Sefar ultimately died to it despite absorbing some of it.

Doesn’t matter. It’s still a sword beam attack that’s doesn’t last long enough or is powerful enough to overwhelm IB at its upper limits.

A full power Enuma Elish would destroy the entire area around Touma, it wouldn't be just aimed at Touma and it would send him to Primordial Earth as it did the Angra Mainyu Shades in HA.

Just like Gungnir did on a Multiversal scale. Touma still survived it

Touma dies to the heat of AAS like he should with Excalibur and Enuma Elish if Mash did lol.

Not when he’s erasing the beams on contact unlike Mash who simply blocked it