Touma and his Interactions with other Attacks

[Astaro]

From what I'm seeing so far IB would negate someone increasing their stats via unnatural means but not alien biology

Pretty much. Imagine Breaker has no effect on purely biological powers

Goes without saying, he isn't cancelling out a punch from Supes or his strength either

 

[Masterblack06]

Again, where is this nonsense about Pure World or not being what determines whether or not Imagine Breaker works on something?

That was never once the case in this series and your confusing Pure World with Imagine Breaker's role as the reference point of the world, two completely different subjects.

The fact that Aiwass, whose from the Pure World and the literal Angel of that world,





can be negated by Touma is proof of this because he's still a supernatural being

Its from SB, you weren't banned at the time but I dont think i was ever in any thread you were in. But i've had multiple people argue and say that IBs negation is based on whats in the pure world. If something isnt in the pure world then IB would negate it. and then people would use that to say that Touma could just turn off peoples strength even if they werent like superman tier strong. Or it could turn off androids and cyborgs and even like laser weaponry and stuff.

Shit was bad and its why I brought it up. I'd rather bring it up and get the correct info. you know?

 

[Churronzon]

So we're going with MFS = Gungnir > IB? or is MFS stronger than Gungnir

She's no longer functioning like she's able to before. What happens when something isn't functioning but trying to?

You're unprotected from exorcism/illusion killing.

One could cast off their cage of flesh and ascend the Sephiroth to reach the knowledge
there, but that made them more susceptible to external forces. On the other hand,
descending the tree placed many different physical restrictions on them, but it gave them
a sturdier self. Normal magicians would hate an “unchanging self” as much as a stubborn
mind or stiff joints, but it was all in how it was used.

Seriously, cite where its stated Coronzon's spells likewise just ignore Imagine Breaker just like herself. By your logic, any human being a human means their spells would ignore IB as well

Yeah I would be forced to assume the rules are different for humans and supernatural entities, which is a stretch I'll admit. Do you remember if Frillsand's lightning can be negated by IB?

Again, where is this nonsense about Pure World or not being what determines whether or not Imagine Breaker works on something?

Ngl, the thought that it was widely-spread fanon never crossed my mine, but I'm willing to entertain it.
What would you classify as the normal world that Magic Gods want an assurance to return to after overlaying the world with many phases?

 

[Astaro]

Its from SB, you weren't banned at the time but I dont think i was ever in any thread you were in. But i've had multiple people argue and say that IBs negation is based on whats in the pure world. If something isnt in the pure world then IB would negate it. and then people would use that to say that Touma could just turn off peoples strength even if they werent like superman tier strong. Or it could turn off androids and cyborgs and even like laser weaponry and stuff.

Shit was bad and its why I brought it up. I'd rather bring it up and get the correct info. you know?

Read the above, it's fan-made bullshit. See the descriptions of Aiwass I just posted?

Here's Touma IB working on Aiwass, the literal angel of said Pure World

And Aiwass was not the only one here.

Aleister made an announcement as if whispering.

“The Blasting Rod.”

That support spell would amplify an attack’s power to ten times what the target thought it would be.

It was now a solid wall.

Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass had been amplified ten times.

Kamijou did not even have time to fix his dislocated shoulder. He grabbed his unreliably dangling right wrist with his left hand and forcibly pulled it forward just in time for the direct clash to hit.

His feet rose from the floor.

164 His body flew through the air and his back slammed into a colorless and invisible wall.

“G…bh!? Bwaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!?”

A dull sound he had never heard before burst from within his body.

To be clear, this was what happened after Imagine Breaker negated everything it could.

Even if the limits of what a human could imagine had been extended ten times…this destructive power could only be described as unbelievably great. It gave credibility to Aleister’s arrogant intent to declare war on the Magic Gods while remaining human.

Does it again in GT2

“It is time to die, you weak soul at the mercy of your own power. Failing to draw my interest counts as an even zero, so that I can forgive. But disappointing me earns a negative score. That warrants death.”

The Holy Guardian Angel roared.

The distance between them did not matter. If he closed those arms equipped with sharp talons, Kamijou Touma’s body would be squashed beyond recognition. And even if he deflected that with his right hand’s power, he was done for once the larger angel wings attacked. The larger and smaller pairs of scissors closed in on him like an invisible field of death. Imagine Breaker was useful, but it could not handle multiple simultaneous attacks.

And.

But.

Both of Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass’s attacks were deflected.

The snow flew through the air.

As did the angel’s feathers.

“?”

The Anna Sprengel wrinkled her brow in confusion. It was not much, but the situation had moved beyond her expectations. The giant freight train should have crushed everything in its path, but it had begun to derail.

(What?)

Imagine Breaker alone was not enough to handle multiple simultaneous attacks.

He could have blocked either the talons or the wings, but then the other one should have reached him and torn through him.

(What was that? Did he use Imagine Breaker to redirect the destroyed magic into the other one, like sending the sword’s broken blade against the spear’s tip? No, this was something else.)

“Don’t tell me.”

The great maw and the angel wings had been deflected at the exact same moment.

 

[Masterblack06]

Read the above, it's fan-made bullshit. See the descriptions of Aiwass I just posted?

Here's Touma IB working on Aiwass, the literal angel of said Pure World



Does it again in GT2

Well its good to know that It was all just someone talking out their ass.

 

[Paxton]

Where is it stated that Aiwass was literally born there?

 

[Astaro]

So we're going with MFS = Gungnir > IB? or is MFS stronger than Gungnir

I have the attacks rivaling each other, but with Flaming Sword just edging it out enough in power from punching through IB at it's best and nearly killing Touma while Gungnir only cost Touma a few fingers to stop.

You're unprotected from exorcism/illusion killing.

And in the case of Coronzon, also unable to use their full power

Yeah I would be forced to assume the rules are different for humans and supernatural entities, which is a stretch I'll admit. Do you remember if Frillsand's lightning can be negated by IB?

Frillsand's case is because as ridiculous as her abilities are, their a product purely made from technology and without anything supernatural to them for IB to effect like Esper power, so lightning fired from her is completely ordinary lightning she simply discharges.

Ngl, the thought that it was widely-spread fanon never crossed my mine, but I'm willing to entertain it.
What would you classify as the normal world that Magic Gods want an assurance to return to after overlaying the world with many phases?

Pure World and Imagine Breaker being a reference point to the world are two difference subjects.

 

[Paxton]

So we're going with MFS = Gungnir > IB? or is MFS stronger than Gungnir

You're unprotected from exorcism/illusion killing.



Yeah I would be forced to assume the rules are different for humans and supernatural entities, which is a stretch I'll admit. Do you remember if Frillsand's lightning can be negated by IB?


Ngl, the thought that it was widely-spread fanon never crossed my mine, but I'm willing to entertain it.
What would you classify as the normal world that Magic Gods want an assurance to return to after overlaying the world with many phases?

That would be a bit misleading to say; it rivals Gungnir in terms of destructive power, but due to conceptual precedence mumbo jumbo it's much more qualitatively powerful.

Something like that.

 

[Paxton]

I have the attacks rivaling each other, but with Flaming Sword just edging it out enough in power from punching through IB at it's best and nearly killing Touma while Gungnir only cost Touma a few fingers to stop.

And in the case of Coronzon, also unable to use their full power

Frillsand's case is because as ridiculous as her abilities are, their a product purely made from technology and without anything supernatural to them for IB to effect like Esper power, so lightning fired from her is completely ordinary lightning she simply discharges.

Pure World and Imagine Breaker being a reference point to the world are two difference subjects.

..Astaro, what do you think that reference point is, exactly?

The Pure World is a realm of pure physical laws. Imagine Breaker nullifies unnatural distortions to the world.

They're pretty explicitly connected.

 

[Churronzon]

He's got a point tho. Neither the Pure World nor Imagine Breaker wikipedia articles mention each other once.

 

[Astaro]

He's got a point tho. Neither the Pure World nor Imagine Breaker wikipedia articles mention each other once.

Because their unrelated.

Pure World = World of Physical Laws and the bottom most layer of reality that stabilizes the rotations of all the other Phases piled above it to keep them from colliding and obliterating each other

Imagine Breaker being referred to as the Reference Point of the World is referring to it undoing anything caused by magic that distorts the world as a whole, not specifically the Pure World which is a place untouched by magic anyway (and even this description about it is questionable when Aiwass whose behind the modern practices of magic, is the angel of it)

Long story short, it can restore thing to how they were in any world to undo magic taken too far, but it has nothing to do with something being of the Pure World or not

EDIT: Is Pax replying to my posts?

Already told that dumbfuck he's on permanent ignore. Im done "debating" with him and his shit takes on the series since he’s manages to be even worse than talking to a wall

He can reply all he wants, but he won't get anything else from me.

 

[Paxton]

Because their unrelated.

Pure World = World of Physical laws and the bottom most layer of reality that stabilizes the rotations of all the other Phases piled above it to keep them from colliding and obliterating each other

Imagine Breaker being referred to as the Reference Point of the World is referring to it undoing anything caused by magic that distorts the world as a whole, not specifically the Pure World which is a place untouched by magic anyway (and even this description about it is questionable when Aiwass whose behind the modern practices of magic, is the angel of it)

Long story short, it can restore thing to how they were in any world to undo magic taken too far

Correct. It's meant to peel away (with the whole painter/canvas analogy) layers/phases and leave.. what, exactly?

I think we might be onto something now.

 

[Churronzon]

I gotta edit CRC's and Tris' profiles and I concede on everything.

Some stuff I find really lame is Alice and Othinus being able to distort the reference point, whatever it may be.

The presence of Imagine Breaker suddenly felt a lot less significant.

It was a reference point for the world.

And so it could negate any and all illusions.

But that meant it had no effect on anything that could distort even that reference point.

For example, his right hand hadn’t been able to destroy the infinite worlds created by Othinus.

Do we think Aiwass has a physical body in the Pure World that lets him die to Curtana that his AIM-regenerating body wouldn't die to or would that be weird?
Coronzon can't enter w/o a body afterall and simultaneously can't be negated by IB.

“I
obtained this physical body and descended the tree. The humans drowning at the bottom
level only ever think of ascending it, but the connections go both ways. I started higher up
and I can freely come and go, so this temporary level does not matter to me. Having a
physical body is not a bad thing since it provides practical benefits in this world. And it
allows me to reach the physical and scientific layer at the very bottom where all other
phases are folded up.”

Having a body allows her to pour in all the esoteric energy she wants into the world of pure physical laws.

Her
goal is to destroy the world. In the first stage, she will have all seven billion humans kill
each other and she will use that as an opening to descend to the very bottom of the
Sephiroth. Once at the very foundation of the world, she will pour in a massive amount of
power to forcibly destroy it. All of the phases overlap, but the gods of legend are not
supported by that alone. Heaven and hell cannot exist entirely independently, so if the
piece at the base is destroyed, the bottom will fall out.”

“Aleister apparently wanted to save humanity by destroying every other phase and leaving
just this one behind, but I am the opposite. By removing the ‘bottom’ layer at the center,
the phases for all mythologies and religions will be destroyed. That is the Ceremony of Mo
Athair. Nothing at all will remain afterwards.”

 

[Astaro]

I gotta edit CRC's and Tris' profiles and I concede on everything.

Some stuff I find really lame is Alice and Othinus being able to distort the reference point, whatever it may be.

Probably like it was with Flaming Sword, both being too powerful. Imagine Breaker regularly has limits to the kind of power it’s able to stop.

Do we think Aiwass has a physical body in the Pure World that lets him die to Curtana that his AIM-regenerating body wouldn't die to or would that be weird?
Coronzon can't enter w/o a body afterall

No, he’s a being made of Telesma, and that honestly was just referring him as just an example of a denizen from another world more than anything.

 

[Paxton]

I gotta edit CRC's and Tris' profiles and I concede on everything.

Some stuff I find really lame is Alice and Othinus being able to distort the reference point, whatever it may be.

Do we think Aiwass has a physical body in the Pure World that lets him die to Curtana that his AIM-regenerating body wouldn't die to or would that be weird?
Coronzon can't enter w/o a body afterall and simultaneously can't be negated by IB.

Having a body allows her to pour in all the esoteric energy she wants into the world of pure physical laws.

Aleister realizing he could've just become a Magic God (objectively the strongest entities in the series) and not need Aiwass in the first place

 

[Astaro]

@Masterblack06

I remember now

Jiren (DBS) vs Touma (Toaru)

Fight starts in the Cell Games arena 50 feet apart. Feats from anime and manga for Jiren; anime, manga LN, and games for Touma. No knowledge, no prep. Both bloodlusted Victory via KO or death

forums.spacebattles.com

Yeah, this thread and the arguments for Touma were garbage. I’d argue Touma being able to negate Ki attacks because of how similar they are to Mana in Toaru but Touma isn’t stopping either Jiren’s natural strength or life force energy, even if both are at universe destroying, reality-shattering levels

I basically argued the same thing in that thread. Fighting Jiren would just be a million times worse for him then the times he tried to fight Kanzaki or Acqua

 

[Paxton]

Touma at full power beats Jiren without the powers of the Dragon King, given he was hit by CRC's magic several times and because it's never stated that Touma in GT9 was getting buffed by it

Anyway this is getting off-topic

 

[Darth Zion]

You can intervene here if you like.

We have two explanations for Imagine Breaker- it's either a medicine that restores the world back to harmony to be by negating unnatural distortions or a reference point meant to act as a safeguard that can reset anything it touches back to the original point in the base universe in case a magician toys around with reality and forgets to how to revert it.

"A Magic God can distort the world as she desires. She can distort it as she wishes, but it cannot always be brought back to how it was before. Any childishly selfish wish such as making all the water running from the water pipes turn into orange juice is perfectly doable. But the more the world is distorted, the greater the danger of some kind of harmful side effects presenting themselves. And even if she tries to turn the world back to how it was, there is a danger of her no longer being able to tell exactly how the original world was after distorting it. These changes we are talking about are like changing the length of a meter or changing the weight of a gram."

"So if that's the fear, what is the hope?"

"A world like that would be a frightening thing, wouldn't it? Even if you can alter everything to your selfish whims, you would want some kind of insurance, wouldn't you? The simplest way to put it would be a backup or a reference point you could use to return the world to normal. I suppose you could say your right hand is like the International Prototype Kilogram. Even if the world is utterly distorted and you can no longer recall how long a meter used to be or how heavy a gram used to be, your right hand can negate all magic, so a reference point still exists. By measuring the length, weight, and temperature of your right hand, someone who has distorted the world too greatly can recall what the original world was like. It acts as a lifeline that allows the world to be reverted to normal, no matter how far it has been distorted in any direction."

That was the hope.

If there was some insurance, you could go nuts and not worry about holding back.

No restraint was needed, so you could simply act on all of your desires. It was an extremely selfish hope that existed only from the point of view of the one making the changes.

"There was a time when powers similar to that showed themselves here and there throughout an era. Some took the form of weapons and made their way into the hands of great heroes, some took the form of frescos and were rumored to heal the diseases of any who touched them, and others took the form of caves and functioned as trials for those who entered them. ...I do not know if the power in your hand is simply one more of those powers or if those hopes combined together into another form as they were lost and have naturally appeared here. I can make some guesses, but I have not tested any of them. However, I can say one thing for sure. Your right hand functions as a reference point for the world."

In either case- two things are apparent. The negation works by reverting the world back to its original state and it knows the said original state because contains a blueprint of the original universe which includes things such as physics and fundamental constants.

Imagine Breaker ignores quantity since it negated Gungnir and the Flaming Sword, but there are ways to get around its negation which include-

• IB negates powers trying to influence all of Touma body at once such as time-stop but localized powers can get around its negation by targeting specific parts of his body as seen with Misaki only targeting his brain and leaving out his right hand.
• IB cannot negate a regenerating power whose source is not in contact with his hand, meaning a spell which casts itself again and again from an outside source faster than Touma can negate it would get around Imagine Breaker so long as its source remains untouched.

Ive seen claims that IB can negate someones super strength because its not related to the pure world or some shit like that

That depends on how the superstrength is obtained, if it's a natural part of body then it would not be negated since evolution does not count as supernatural but if its a spell like Body Reinforcement empowering someone then it would be negated.

Aliens don't exist in The Pure World" or some shit like that

Aiwass is an extraterrestrial being. Besides, Aliens would be a product of natural evolution so I'm not seeing why it would be counted as supernatural. Now on to the parts I got from the Humorous Arguments thread-

What are we talking about here.

Before I answer that, let me specify what I was arguing with in the first place. The poster I was responding to claimed that All Fiction does not interact with the things it is erasing, but rather manipulates the concepts that make up its existence- this is perhaps him trying to argue that All Fiction would get around Imagine Breaker by changing the reference point to the original world inside it.

To which my response it that All Fiction is not conceptual manipulation that erases things my changing the concepts that make up their existence, to be more precise it's explicitly causality manipulation that works even on abstract things such as time, concepts, and existence. This is not something I'm saying myself but the explanation given to us by the Ajimu-

My hundred gauntlets is a simple, very peaceful skill that "Turns an event into an hatching egg", that is to say, 'Reverses the cause-effect relationship'. Kumagawa-kun just took that skill and remodeled it in one that "Makes it so that cause and effect didn't happen". For example, it's like putting an end to the "Which came first, the chicken or the egg?" argument by saying "Sorry, I ate them both".

She straight up says that All Fiction is the erasure of causality, which evolved from a weaker form of causality manipulation known as Hundred Gauntlets which merely reversed it. This is from the source manga and the speaker is the character who created All Fiction, so this is the most trustworthy explanation we would ever get.

Whether All Fiction erases things by manipulating causality or altering concepts usually does not matter since the end result remains the same, which is the target gets erased. But it matters here since since it's a question of how the power fundamentally works.

I can give you a million reasons why this won't work and most of them won't even include the Imagine Breaker itself...

Yeah, I've already mention in that thread that the user of MOEPD can get around Imagine Breaker by targeting Touma himself, but the very premise of the thread is if Imagine Breaker would negate the given powers in a straight clash.

Otherwise, people would be arguing about Yhwach simply blitzing Touma and punching his head away or Kumagawa simply using Bookmarker and erasing the time that action took to win instantly. The question here is if these powers can overpower Imagine Breaker's negation, not if the users of these powers can defeat Touma.

Othinus never killed Touma

That is not what the claim is. The poster I was responding to argued that reality wrapping would work against Touma and cited Othinus murdering him repeatedly using her phase manipulation to prove his point, to which I responded that she never killed him. To be more precise, I meant that she never defeated or murdered him using her reality wrapping directly- instead, she always changed the world around him whenever using phase manipulation-

"Then what happened to Sargasso!? What happened to Tokyo Bay!?"

"Does it look like any of it remains?"

"Then what happened to the people there!? What happened to Index!? Or Misaka!? Or Lessar and Birdway!? A-and not just them! What about all the people living in Tokyo!?"

"Do I look like someone who would care about that?"

"…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………"

His understanding of what lay before him crumbled.

He forgot how to produce anger or sorrow.

Such things had been so natural that he had never before thought about the process.

But his mind was in such disarray that he no longer understood how his own heart functioned.

"You're lying…"

"How long are you going to keep talking?"

"You're lying!! You, um, used some kind of trick to make it look like that's what happened!! That would be easier. Instead of destroying Tokyo Bay and killing all those people, it would be easier to bring me to some other place!! So…!!"

"It no longer matters how you perceive the situation. Who it was that disappeared is a trivial matter. The problem that lies before you is that only the two of us are here," said Othinus disinterestedly. She sounded like someone who had downloaded an app to kill time late at night but found out it was even more boring than expected. "And you seem confused as to the scale we are talking about."

"What? Are you saying there's more?"

"Why are you talking about this on the tiny scale of Tokyo Bay? What I destroyed is not contained to just the small planet known as Earth."

Touma survived Othinus straight-up deleting the universe to create the Black Void and he was not killed when she made him experience alternate realities where everything was changed. In fact, Othinus herself says that she had not killed him when changing the world since the entire point of this was forcing him to commit suicide and Touma himself contemplates suicide for a brief moment

For an instant, Kamijou gave a relaxed expression that resembled a bizarre smile.

But anyone could tell he was definitely not smiling.

Othinus ignored it.

"I could kill you, but I am sure you have realized the problem with that. You have a way of somehow escaping dangerous situations brought about by external factors. Your inability to die when you should may be the greatest of all misfortunes you have been constantly exposed to. I can kill you with odds greater than 99%, but if you want to fill the gap and reach 100%, it would be faster to end your own life. That would be the most wholesome option for the world."

How should he kill himself?

Kamijou vaguely pondered that question as he wandered aimlessly through the streets. The answer would change where he had to go. He had never given it thought before. Othinus's comments had been right on the mark. He had become so used to experiencing such unreasonable misfortune for so long that no normal trouble would kill him. Whether he was aware of it or not, he would somehow avoid death.

So yes, she never killed him using Phase Manipulation. For more examples, here is Touma actually watching the universe change around him-

"A Magic God does not need to do anything directly to crush a single kid. Have you forgotten? A Magic God is one who can manipulate anything in the world using magic. Everything is under my control. Any annoying bit of work can be left to my pawns."

It glowed.

The spear gave off light in that world filled with nothing but darkness.

This was a clear change.

Or perhaps it was a sign of creation.

"What are you doing?"

"I already told you. I am breaking you mentally."

Magic God Othinus's tone was perfectly casual.

She looked at him as if watching a death row inmate being carried along the conveyer belt of a fully automated execution device.

"I will take that which you wanted to protect, the places you wanted to return to, the faces you wanted to see once more, and everything else. I will fundamentally overturn them and destroy your recognition of them. I will show you the insignificance of everything you have gained in your fifteen or so years of life."

As soon as she finished speaking, the entire world was dyed white.

It was not that his vision was being filled with bright light. He was not being blinded. The empty world of darkness was now shining. It was changing. Starting from the lance, everything was obeying the Magic God's will.

Something was happening.

As if interrupting or as if standing up from a theatre seat while watching a boring comedy, Othinus snapped her fingers.

The world vanished.

Kamijou Touma stood in a world where the ground, the sky, and beyond the horizon were all black.

Note how Touma does not die when phase manipulation is used. Another example of reality wrapping changing the universe but leaving Touma untouched would be Alice when she reversed everything that had happened in GT5 and her stopping time but I think I've made my point with these.

 

[Paxton]

We have two explanations for Imagine Breaker- it's either a medicine that restores the world back to harmony to be by negating unnatural distortions or a reference point meant to act as a safeguard that can reset anything it touches back to the original point in the base universe in case a magician toys around with reality and forgets to how to revert it.

In either case- two things are apparent. The negation works by reverting the world back to its original state and it knows the said original state because contains a blueprint of the original universe which includes things such as physics and fundamental constants.

Imagine Breaker ignores quantity since it negated Gungnir and the Flaming Sword, but there are ways to get around its negation which include-

• IB negates powers trying to influence all of Touma body at once such as time-stop but localized powers can get around its negation by targeting specific parts of his body as seen with Misaki only targeting his brain and leaving out his right hand.
• IB cannot negate a regenerating power whose source is not in contact with his hand, meaning a spell which casts itself again and again from an outside source faster than Touma can negate it would get around Imagine Breaker so long as its source remains untouched.

That depends on how the superstrength is obtained, if it's a natural part of body then it would not be negated since evolution does not count as supernatural but if its a spell like Body Reinforcement empowering someone then it would be negated.

Aiwass is an extraterrestrial being. Besides, Aliens would be a product of natural evolution so I'm not seeing why it would be counted as supernatural. Now on to the parts I got from the Humorous Arguments thread-

Before I answer that, let me specify what I was arguing with in the first place. The poster I was responding to claimed that All Fiction does not interact with the things it is erasing, but rather manipulates the concepts that make up its existence- this is perhaps him trying to argue that All Fiction would get around Imagine Breaker by changing the reference point to the original world inside it.

To which my response it that All Fiction is not conceptual manipulation that erases things my changing the concepts that make up their existence, to be more precise it's explicitly causality manipulation that works even on abstract things such as time, concepts, and existence. This is not something I'm saying myself but the explanation given to us by the Ajimu-

She straight up says that All Fiction is the erasure of causality, which evolved from a weaker form of causality manipulation known as Hundred Gauntlets which merely reversed it. This is from the source manga and the speaker is the character who created All Fiction, so this is the most trustworthy explanation we would ever get.

Whether All Fiction erases things by manipulating causality or altering concepts usually does not matter since the end result remains the same, which is the target gets erased. But it matters here since since it's a question of how the power fundamentally works.

Yeah, I've already mention in that thread that the user of MOEPD can get around Imagine Breaker by targeting Touma himself, but the very premise of the thread is if Imagine Breaker would negate the given powers in a straight clash.

Otherwise, people would be arguing about Yhwach simply blitzing Touma and punching his head away or Kumagawa simply using Bookmarker and erasing the time that action took to win instantly. The question here is if these powers can overpower Imagine Breaker's negation, not if the users of these powers can defeat Touma.

That is not what the claim is. The poster I was responding to argued that reality wrapping would work against Touma and cited Othinus murdering him repeatedly using her phase manipulation to prove his point, to which I responded that she never killed him. To be more precise, I meant that she never defeated or murdered him using her reality wrapping directly- instead, she always changed the world around him whenever using phase manipulation-

Touma survived Othinus straight-up deleting the universe to create the Black Void and he was not killed when she made him experience alternate realities where everything was changed. In fact, Othinus herself says that she had not killed him when changing the world since the entire point of this was forcing him to commit suicide and Touma himself contemplates suicide for a brief moment


So yes, she never killed him using Phase Manipulation. For more examples, here is Touma actually watching the universe change around him-


Note how Touma does not die when phase manipulation is used. Another example of reality wrapping changing the universe but leaving Touma untouched would be Alice when she reversed everything that had happened in GT5 and her stopping time but I think I've made my point with these.

That's just an interpretation of Aiwass' existence, much like him being both considered an "angel" and a "dragon". He's not actually an alien lol.

Besides that, everything else is correct.

 

[Masterblack06]

We have two explanations for Imagine Breaker- it's either a medicine that restores the world back to harmony to be by negating unnatural distortions or a reference point meant to act as a safeguard that can reset anything it touches back to the original point in the base universe in case a magician toys around with reality and forgets to how to revert it.

In either case- two things are apparent. The negation works by reverting the world back to its original state and it knows the said original state because contains a blueprint of the original universe which includes things such as physics and fundamental constants.

Imagine Breaker ignores quantity since it negated Gungnir and the Flaming Sword, but there are ways to get around its negation which include-

• IB negates powers trying to influence all of Touma body at once such as time-stop but localized powers can get around its negation by targeting specific parts of his body as seen with Misaki only targeting his brain and leaving out his right hand.
• IB cannot negate a regenerating power whose source is not in contact with his hand, meaning a spell which casts itself again and again from an outside source faster than Touma can negate it would get around Imagine Breaker so long as its source remains untouched.

That depends on how the superstrength is obtained, if it's a natural part of body then it would not be negated since evolution does not count as supernatural but if its a spell like Body Reinforcement empowering someone then it would be negated.

Aiwass is an extraterrestrial being. Besides, Aliens would be a product of natural evolution so I'm not seeing why it would be counted as supernatural. Now on to the parts I got from the Humorous Arguments thread-

Before I answer that, let me specify what I was arguing with in the first place. The poster I was responding to claimed that All Fiction does not interact with the things it is erasing, but rather manipulates the concepts that make up its existence- this is perhaps him trying to argue that All Fiction would get around Imagine Breaker by changing the reference point to the original world inside it.

To which my response it that All Fiction is not conceptual manipulation that erases things my changing the concepts that make up their existence, to be more precise it's explicitly causality manipulation that works even on abstract things such as time, concepts, and existence. This is not something I'm saying myself but the explanation given to us by the Ajimu-

She straight up says that All Fiction is the erasure of causality, which evolved from a weaker form of causality manipulation known as Hundred Gauntlets which merely reversed it. This is from the source manga and the speaker is the character who created All Fiction, so this is the most trustworthy explanation we would ever get.

Whether All Fiction erases things by manipulating causality or altering concepts usually does not matter since the end result remains the same, which is the target gets erased. But it matters here since since it's a question of how the power fundamentally works.

Yeah, I've already mention in that thread that the user of MOEPD can get around Imagine Breaker by targeting Touma himself, but the very premise of the thread is if Imagine Breaker would negate the given powers in a straight clash.

Otherwise, people would be arguing about Yhwach simply blitzing Touma and punching his head away or Kumagawa simply using Bookmarker and erasing the time that action took to win instantly. The question here is if these powers can overpower Imagine Breaker's negation, not if the users of these powers can defeat Touma.

That is not what the claim is. The poster I was responding to argued that reality wrapping would work against Touma and cited Othinus murdering him repeatedly using her phase manipulation to prove his point, to which I responded that she never killed him. To be more precise, I meant that she never defeated or murdered him using her reality wrapping directly- instead, she always changed the world around him whenever using phase manipulation-

Touma survived Othinus straight-up deleting the universe to create the Black Void and he was not killed when she made him experience alternate realities where everything was changed. In fact, Othinus herself says that she had not killed him when changing the world since the entire point of this was forcing him to commit suicide and Touma himself contemplates suicide for a brief moment


So yes, she never killed him using Phase Manipulation. For more examples, here is Touma actually watching the universe change around him-


Note how Touma does not die when phase manipulation is used. Another example of reality wrapping changing the universe but leaving Touma untouched would be Alice when she reversed everything that had happened in GT5 and her stopping time but I think I've made my point with these.

Imma be honest with you dude. I'm not reading all of this. The person you were arguing with was my brother, I saw what you said. You explained all this here, but on SB your arguments werent nearly as detailed nor did you properly format them. He made two statements in one post but you quoted the entire thing and said "never happened" the fault with that entire argumet falls on you.