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The Empyreans (Elden Ring) Invade the MCU
- Thread starter Darth Nihilus
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She says she's "burned and bodyless." She some kinda ghost. Unless that's mistranslated. And she materializes same way Torrent does. Who is also a ghost.
That's still speculation, my man. We know next to nothing about Melina.
Double checked the Sword Memorials. They also confirm that the war was actually a stalemate. Though I am still having problems finding a time-frame for it.
The first war ended in Radagon's favor.
The first war ended in Radagon's favor.
"Radagon's glory" doesn't imply victory, only that he distinguished himself in the first war.Double checked the Sword Memorials. They also confirm that the war was actually a stalemate. Though I am still having problems finding a time-frame for it.
The first war ended in Radagon's favor.
Also, not getting why he even had a Great Rune that he could just hand away to Rennala if he wasn't divine in some way already. That combined with the fact he had a shadow suggests he was some sort sort of Empyrean. Then Miriel outright stating how unusual it was for Radagon to be made Elden Lord when he was "just a champion." Implying there was a special reason as to why Marika needed him.
Then Gold Mask in no uncertain terms says that he is Marika after the revelation from the statue is made clear, unless Corhyn is purposely mistranslating him but that's unlikely because this revelation makes him suicidally depressed and disllusioned with the Golden Order, the fact Radagon was cursed by the Fire Giants which would suggest he was in that war, and Marika referring to him as her other half would all imply they were the same person before the Shattering ever occurred. Not helped by the fact Gold Breaker, his signature move that he was known for, is reliant on Marika's Hammer.
Then Gold Mask in no uncertain terms says that he is Marika after the revelation from the statue is made clear, unless Corhyn is purposely mistranslating him but that's unlikely because this revelation makes him suicidally depressed and disllusioned with the Golden Order, the fact Radagon was cursed by the Fire Giants which would suggest he was in that war, and Marika referring to him as her other half would all imply they were the same person before the Shattering ever occurred. Not helped by the fact Gold Breaker, his signature move that he was known for, is reliant on Marika's Hammer.
Corhyn rejects Goldmask's revelation about the Golden Order and the fundamentalism he follows that Marika wants, so he's suspicious. Corhyn is a traditionalist and doesn't accept Goldmask after he reveals the new way to change the fundamentalism of the Golden Order "system". Also don't misunderstand me here, I said he gained "renown" from the first Liuranian War and was already a famed champion before this, hence why he was leading the Golden Order army against the Carians. We can't simply assume because Radagon got more famous due to the first war that the Carians lost when nothing supports it, especially when the conflict is two wars with Caria not ending up annexed/conquered by Lyenedell.
In the timeline and chronological order of events as Miriel states, Radagon was already famed while Godfrey was still the first Elden Lord. Also he never refers to Radagon in past tense as "Lord" Radagon until after Radagon had already wed Marika, leaving Rennala, and following Godfrey's banishment and removal of grace, becoming the first Tarnished with his men following. Also according to Miriel, Radagon "came to these lands", implying the Lands Between, which means like Godfrey/Horah Loux, he's an outsider to the continent.
Also again, Marika's own words: "thou art yet to become me, thou art yet to become a God."
They were never originally one person imo.
In the timeline and chronological order of events as Miriel states, Radagon was already famed while Godfrey was still the first Elden Lord. Also he never refers to Radagon in past tense as "Lord" Radagon until after Radagon had already wed Marika, leaving Rennala, and following Godfrey's banishment and removal of grace, becoming the first Tarnished with his men following. Also according to Miriel, Radagon "came to these lands", implying the Lands Between, which means like Godfrey/Horah Loux, he's an outsider to the continent.
Also again, Marika's own words: "thou art yet to become me, thou art yet to become a God."
They were never originally one person imo.
Mostly because Gold Mask's revelation would be heretical, and challenge the dogmatic views of the Golden Order. Which Corhyn has been indoctrinated to believe in. This is also when you burn the Erdtree, and it makes him a little bit coo coo afterwards.
I am also still not buying that Morgott would commission a statue of Radagon after the Shattering, and he's the only one who possibly could. Though I doubt any sculptor would be brave enough to trek through the ruins of the city. After everything went to shambles during the Shattering.
Which is due to gods who are no better than men. Going by the description of the mending rune. Corhyn had a problem with it because the "truth" here would be considered heresy. And this is made worse when he sees the Erdtree set aflame. Which is what led to him denouncing Gold Mask. The problem is that Corhyn himself is zealous in his beliefs, and that's likely the reason why he would reject anything even remotely considered blasphemy. Such as there being more than one true god. Which we know is the case, but he would also reject that idea on the basis of his fundamentalism.
Miriel doesn't actually specify that, and Godfrey got banished after defeating the Storm Lord. Then he was murdered some time later by a rival chieftain or whatever else in his homeland. It's not clear who killed him, but he did die. The reason why he could even come back was because he got resurrected by the return of his grace. We even see Godfrey's corpse in the opening cinematic. When the tarnished are called back to the Lands Between. Another thing is that the Omen likely are a result of the Formless Mother. There were a few other things I disagree with from your list, but I am too lazy to address them all. The Omen are the way there are due to their accursed blood, and we know the Formless Mother's domain is in that. Mohg further enforces this idea. As unlike Morgott he embraced what he was, and even Morgott draws his power from his accursed blood.
And I was getting tired of writing text walls myself.
That isn't the full quote, and that's the problem here. What it actually says is: "O Radagon, leal hound of the Golden Order. Thou'rt yet to become me, thou'rt yet to become a god. Let us both be shattered, mine other half."
The quote both simultaneously says they aren't the same person, but also that they're two halves of the same person. Waiting to be reunited with each other. It supports both arguments being made here.
I personally feel that they always were. There's too many coincidences that I can't dismiss.
However, this is all speculatory on both our parts. The game intentionally does not give us a clear answer, and wants us to speculate.
The major plot hole with the Melina is Ranni theory is that even if the former is torched the latter still exists, but that's also dependent on whether Melina was playing us or not. Which she also could have been.
Another thing I feel is up to debate is Marika's motivation. Since, if we take everything Melina says at face, Marika planned literally everything ahead of time. And the Shattering didn't actually have anything to do with Godwyn's death.
"Very well. In Marika's own words. My Lord, and thy warriors. I divest each of thee of thy grace. With thine eyes dimmed, ye will be driven from the Lands Between. Ye will wage war in a land afar, where ye will live, and die."
"In Marika's own words. Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord, Lord Godfrey."
Which is also why Gideon tries to stop you from becoming Elden Lord. Marika had something insidious in mind, and he wanted to stop it from happening.
"Knowledge begins with the recognition of one's ignorance. The realization that the search for knowledge is unending. But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear. At the end that should not be."
"Very well. In Marika's own words. My Lord, and thy warriors. I divest each of thee of thy grace. With thine eyes dimmed, ye will be driven from the Lands Between. Ye will wage war in a land afar, where ye will live, and die."
"In Marika's own words. Then, after thy death, I will give back what I once claimed. Return to the Lands Between, wage war, and brandish the Elden Ring. Grow strong in the face of death. Warriors of my lord, Lord Godfrey."
Which is also why Gideon tries to stop you from becoming Elden Lord. Marika had something insidious in mind, and he wanted to stop it from happening.
"Knowledge begins with the recognition of one's ignorance. The realization that the search for knowledge is unending. But when Gideon glimpsed into the will of Queen Marika, he shuddered in fear. At the end that should not be."
Morgott definitely didn't commission anything but all the sculpture and paintings of Radagon happened AFTER Godfrey had been exiled and he became the second Elden Lord. Remember, Morgott is an Omen, a demigod and son of Godfrey and Marika, but still an Omen and looked down upon and we both know the Omens of nobility and above are exiled to the sewers under the capital where as normal ones are killed. Unless Morgott was using illusions and there's nothing in the lore that connects him to giving a flying fuck about step-dad, it was likely done well before the Shattering happened.
So we agree Corhyn who both in-character and out-of-universe and who firmly rejects Goldmask cannot be fully trusted then.
We only know that Godfrey died, we have no idea how it happened or when it happened between his exile and his death to his return to the Lands Between again after the Shattering. We have no idea when the Storm Lord is killed by Godfrey, either before the war with the giants, after the war with the giants, or before or after the war with the dragons. We only know whoever the "last" great opponent to him was, unless your in the camp that the Storm Lord = Placidusax which is another title he may have had as others have opinionated.
I haven't seen evidence of this.
The mutations and alteration to a person become a Misbegotten or Omen is due to the Crucible's influence, other items including Siluria's own set says they were looked down upon because of how future civilization in the Lands Between continued to disdain the primordial aspect of what the Crucible "partially" evolved or devolved in a person. All of the Crucible Knights were sworn to Godfrey who was as a follower of the Greater Will and Golden Order, and the Greater Will firmly rejects the other Outer Gods completely. It would not have been possible for Godfrey the Golden to go around fighting wars and being its greatest and most legendary champion + first Elden Lord with his personal retinue of Crucible Knights operating as his literal huscarls if they were due to another Outer Gods influence.
Yes I'm well aware of the full quote. Again its context, she specifies he is yet to become "part" of her and the other ending half of the quote can be chalked to being poetic in the fact he is her husband and her consort as the reigning Elden Lord.
Exactly. I do not fully reject the idea of them being potentially being one person but I reject you believing this is always the case when as much evidence points against it as it does support it, we cannot fully jump into substantiating conjecture in the lore as being cemented until it fully is without question.
That's fine, I personally don't see it that way.
Agreed.
I don't see the reason why Melina has any motivation to manipulate the player/Tarnished like Ranni does; we know dedicated Maidens to their Tarnished will willingly sacrifice themselves to ensure their Tarnished have a better chance to become the Elden Lord; see Vyke's and Melina also says she is willing to sacrifice herself for the Tarnished after Lyendell before and after the fight with Morgott.
There is actually Mohgwyn's Sacred Spear for some confirmation.
"As well as serving as a weapon, it is an instrument of communion with an outer god who bestows power upon accursed blood. The mother of truth desires a wound."
So, we know the power of accursed blood comes from the Formless Mother. Which is reflected in how Mohg and Morgott weaponize their blood.
"As well as serving as a weapon, it is an instrument of communion with an outer god who bestows power upon accursed blood. The mother of truth desires a wound."
So, we know the power of accursed blood comes from the Formless Mother. Which is reflected in how Mohg and Morgott weaponize their blood.
Misbegotten and Omen are also completely different things. The Misbegotten were tolerated enough to be used as slaves. All Omen were banished underground like you said, and the ones born of commoners also had their horns removed.
As for Siluria's Set. It just specifies that they drew their power from The Crucible, and that it was the primordial form of the Erdtree. No mention of Misbegotten or Omen.
As for Siluria's Set. It just specifies that they drew their power from The Crucible, and that it was the primordial form of the Erdtree. No mention of Misbegotten or Omen.
It doesn't confirm anything with Morgott.
Mohg willingly wanted to become the Elden Lord equivalent to the Formless/Transient Mother and people like Varre and Okina joined his Covenant/Cult of the Blood God. Morgott on the other hand is completely loyal to the Greater Will and Erdtree. Not only that but Morgott like most other Golden Order followers completely rejects the other Gods, regardless of knowing of their existence or not.
Morgott's Remembrance:
Remembrance of Morgott, the Omen King, hewn into the Erdtree.
The power of its namesake can be unlocked by the Finger Reader.
Alternatively, it can be used to gain a great bounty of runes.
Though born one of the graceless Omen, Morgott took it upon himself to become the Erdtree's protector.
He loved not in return, for he was never loved, but nevertheless, love it he did.
Morgott's Great Rune:
This Great Rune is the anchor ring that houses the base, and proves two things:
That the Omen King was born of the golden lineage, and that he was indeed the Lord of Leyndell.
Morgott's Cursed Sword:
Warped blade of shifting hue used by Morgott, the Omen King.
The accused blood that Morgott recanted and sealed away reformed into this blade.
"The accused blood that Morgott RECANTED AND SEALED AWAY"
He either outright rejects the Formless Mother or seals their influence with his Graceless blood in his sword. It still doesn't connect Omens with being creations of the Formless Mother explicitly, only that we know that this particular Outer God has an interest in Omens. It also explains why outside of the blood slice, all of Morgott's abilities are based around Golden Order sorcery and not blood/bleeding magic like Mohg's.
The Crucible is the primordial source of all life which combined with the Great Tree or was its original form, which forms the basis of how the Erdtree was born (also hinted more strongly in the Frenzied Flame/Chaos Lord ending).
Which is why he sealed away and spurned his accursed his blood. During the second phase of his fight? The result of relying on his accursed blood causes damage to the surrounding area and the Erdtree. The Great Rune he got as a result of being Marika's child, and that despite being cursed as a Omen, he was indeed a demi-god and meant to be Lord of Leyndell. Him being born an Omen is like what happened when Malenia was born with the scarlet rot. Another Outer God influenced him, but he rejected said influence. Unlike Mohg who embraced it.
That has more to do with the fact he is the Grace-Given, and unlike Mohg, he is loyal to the Golden Order and spurns all of his siblings for betraying it. This is also why he sealed away his accursed blood. He's not proud of what he is, and would rather rely on the abilities granted to him by his Great Rune. Rather than the abilities granted to him by his accursed blood. There was also the shackle made to lock the Omen away. Specifically referring to them as the "accursed" people.
A fetish bathed in golden magic.
Shackles were used to bind the accursed people called the Omen,
and these ones were made to keep a particular Omen under
strictest confinement.
Though faint, the shackles still retain vestiges of power — enough
to trap the once-bound Mohg on earth, if only for a short time.
A fetish bathed in golden magic. Shackles were used to bind the accursed people called the Omen, and these ones were made to keep a particular Omen under strictest confinement.
Though faint, the shackles still retain vestiges of power — enough to trap the once-bound Margit on earth, if only for a short time.
Compare and contrast the Erdtree Guardians. Who are not spurned for their deformities, because it comes from their pact from the Erdtree, and they act as the defenders of both it and the Minor Erdtrees.
It is said that the blood-red flowers blooming on their backs mark the senescence of their ancient pact. Perhaps the guardians are part tree already.
Being deformed by itself is not reason enough to be as hated as the Omen are. The only other people banished underground were those of the Great Caravan, and they held a connection with the frenzied flame.
Chapeau of the nomadic merchants.
Decorated with tiny gems in a wide spectrum of colors.
These merchants once thrived as the Great Caravan, but after being accused of heretical beliefs, their entire clan was rounded up and buried alive far underground.
Then, they chanted a curse of despair, and summoned the flame of frenzy.
Typically, the only people the Golden Order banished underground were heretical believers of other foreign deities. As well as any people connected to a foreign deity is any way. Say for example being cursed by one.
It just seems to me that The Crucible was the Erdtree when it first sprouted, and then it became what it is today. When it was in that primordial state it gave rise to all life. The exception being the likes of the Ancient Dragons. Who came from the era before the Erdtree, and whatever else existed before it.
The Dragon King's Cragblade also mentions that the dragons of today are mortal. Compare and contrast the Ancient Dragons who are not.
This weapon commands great power over the paltry, mortal
dragons of today.
The modern day dragons might also have something to do with dragon communion. Since when a mortal eats a dragon's heart? They slowly start to become one. We see this with Magma Wyrms.
Those who have performed the Dragon Communion will find
their humanity slowly slipping away. Once they fully succumb to
their fate, they are left no more than wyrms that crawl the earth.
Though the rest of the modern day dragons likely come from Greyroll. Unless Greyroll herself also partook of dragon communion, and ate the hearts of Ancient Dragons.
The Eternal Cities also tried to recreate the Ancient Dragons via the Dragonkin. They failed to copy their immortality though.
Omens are not specified to be sealed or exiled because of their blood, they are exiled because they are seen as being corrupted by the Crucible or Erdtree which is something the majority of people in the modern era of Elden Ring's world do not understand.
His second phase is using sorcery and channeling the Erdtree's energy to heal himself. Again you missed the context that Morgott sealed away his own accursed blood into a sword he created compared to Mohg who gleefully embraces that sort of blood magic and heretical sorcery.
All of the Omens, Misbegotten, Crucible Knights, even the demi-humans, etc...are considered deviant and accursed. Morgott had no Grace, none of the Omens born can have it due to their very nature of being born of accursed blood.
This doesn't directly or indirectly reference the Formless/Transient Mother though.
See above.
Tree Sentinels and Tree Guardians aren't ever referenced, implied, or stated to have been born without Grace unlike the Omens. Tree Guardians are even specifically said to be humans who gave up their individuality to become the Erdtree's protectors and Tree Sentinels are essentially legendary heroes who did the same thing, where as Omens like Morgott and Mohg are explicitly noted due to their "abominable" nature and accursed blood to be born without any Grace from the Erdtree.
The Golden Order didn't banish the Chaos merchants since they came from originally beyond the Lands Between. The Chaos merchants come from outside of the there and the Golden Order's territory and influence is entirely centered in that continent. We only know that other places in Elden Ring's greater world seemed to despise the merchants for being literal Chaos worshipers and the Frenzied Flame became their protector and patron in return for spreading its influence.
The Crucible either formed or combined with the original Great Tree which would *eventually* become the Erdtree. Again its not common knowledge that most people in the story are completely ignorant of the Crucible and think of it as some sort of malady or heretical force compared to the Erdtree, hence why Omens are so feared and hated.
If they are so immortal then why were so many of them wiped out and killed by Godfrey and Godwyn? Majority of the original dragons as you mentioned before were ancient dragons before Greyroll birthed and littered the newer breed.
But how does this translate to the ancient dragons being immortal? They were also killed in droves during the war with the Golden Order against the dragons. The only thing we know for certain is modern dragons are inferior to ancient dragons, not that the latter were literally immortal.
Nothing is said or ever noted of Greyroll being part of the dragon communion. We only know the dragon communion is an incantation and ritual of the dragon cult, which were started by humans who worshiped the dragons and the ancient dragons were part of this given Vyke was said to be a knight that Fortissax's sister, Lanniesaxx, was in love with and taught him dragon incantations like the dragon lightning glaive and dragonbolt lightning too. Note all the of the dragons with the "-sax" modifier are intelligent and sentient and can shapeshift to human forms.
This is never stated to be the case. We do not see any connection between the Omens and The Crucible. Unless there is another item description here, because the one you referenced with Siluria's Set doesn't actually say this. It just notes that the Crucible Knights draw their power from The Crucible, and that The Crucible is the primordial form of the Erdtree.
I didn't miss this context. I explicitly noted this context, and that the difference between them was Morgott rejected his accursed blood. And that Mohg embraced his accursed blood. The item descriptions broadly said that all Omen are accursed. Not just Morgott or Mohg. They all had shackles. Not just those two.
Crucible Knights are not cursed, and they are not even in the same category as them. They were never ostracized.
This is literally what I was saying, and that they were touched by the influence of another foreign god instead.
Who else could have cursed them? We know the curse deals with their blood, and that the Formless Mother grants this blood her power.
See above.
I never once said they were. I was saying they were different, and weren't ostracized like the Omen. Due to the fact their power came from their pact with the Erdtree.
Now you're just repeating what I said. We seem to be agreed on a lot of points, and are just going in circles here. This was the point I was making in my last post. That the Tree Guardians, unlike the Omen, were not ostracized or reviled. Which means the reason behind the Omen's dire lot in life? Is due to the fact the Omen are separated from the Erdtree, and have no connection to it.
They were explicitly banished due to their heretical beliefs. Which were contrary to the Golden Order. Which means they didn't worship it. They had a presence in the Lands Between as traders, but at some point they were rounded up and buried underground. They were also the ones who summoned the Frenzied Flame in the first place, and we find them underneath Leyndell. Which is where you have to go to become the vessel of the Frenzied Flame, and unlock the Frenzied Flame ending.
This is not why they're feared and hated. They're feared and hated due to the circumstances of their birth, and the fact they are without grace. They are alien to the Lands Between, and have no connection by default to the Greater Will. It is this separation from the Golden Order that makes them reviled by those within it. Morgott was granted grace despite his affliction likely due to his Great Rune, and we clearly see him use grace. Hence, why he has the title of "Grace-Given." He wasn't born with grace but got it anyway through merit.
Immortal as in they do not age. I never said they couldn't be killed. Not immortal as in they cannot be murdered. Modern day dragons, and dragonkin are both capable of aging. Ancient Dragons don't age whatsoever. They can be hurt though. As seen with Placidusax.
Again, this was not what I meant by immortal. I mean that in contrast to modern day dragons, and dragonkin? Ancient Dragons cannot age whatsoever, and they also have an emphasis on the manipulation of electricity. Whereas modern day dragons each specialize in something else.
I am already aware of this. That's why I said "unless Greyoll herself partook of dragon communium." My argument wasn't that modern day dragons had any connection to Ancient Dragons. It was that they didn't, and that they are two entirely different breeds. That both have different origins. The Ancient Dragons are also actually immortal in the sense that they can never age, and modern day dragons whilst long lived still age slowly. Just like the dragonkin. Who are also long lived but do definitely age. The dragonkin themselves have yet another origin of their own. Which gives us three entirely different breeds of dragon. Two being naturally born of different Outer Gods, and one being artificially made with the silver tear or something like that.
Though you can speculate on some sort of connection between The Misbegotten and The Crucible. However, they are still different from the Omen, and weren't banished like they were. I found this on the Crucible Talismans.
All three of these are traits you can see on Misbegotten. Scales, feathers, and knots.
However, it doesn't directly say this. And there's no mention of horns like with the Omen.
All three of these are traits you can see on Misbegotten. Scales, feathers, and knots.
However, it doesn't directly say this. And there's no mention of horns like with the Omen.
The Omen and the Crucible affected seem to be veering in opposite directions
Dung Eater's questline with the seedbed curses emphasizes the reason curses are so scary to everyone is that your soul does not join the Erdtree after death. While the Crucible WAS the Erdtree and those who drew too close to drawing power from it are scorned for whatever reason. There isn't any indication I'm aware of that that reason is in any way similar to the Omen though.
Dung Eater's questline with the seedbed curses emphasizes the reason curses are so scary to everyone is that your soul does not join the Erdtree after death. While the Crucible WAS the Erdtree and those who drew too close to drawing power from it are scorned for whatever reason. There isn't any indication I'm aware of that that reason is in any way similar to the Omen though.
Given we know the Crucible Knights followed Godfrey, it isn't that worship of the Crucible itself is frowned upon, but making direct contact with it seems to almost be considered blasphemous.