One Last Forum

So just to be clear even in light of Tekken's upgrades (so far), is it safe to confirm that: That Street Fighter's top-tiers still utterly rapestomp and babyshake Tekken's top-tiers, even with the exception of Ingrid (wonder where you scale her) and crossover characters like Strider and Meio right?

And I'm also somewhat of a huge KoF/SNK fan, so what is your take on KoF as well as Dead or Alive, Virtua Fighter, Darkstalkers, Soul Calibur, Guilty Gear, BlazBlue, Samurai Showdown, and other SNK's fighting games you may be knowledgeable about in terms of their current scaling AND your opinion on them as a series? Sorry if I'm bothering you here. Just looking for fighting game experts here. I'll be on my way. Merry Belated XMas btw.

No problem! I'm on vacation right now. So my posts are kind of limited. Street Fighter feats were, up until recently, very limited in dramatic instances of hard numbers and defined feat analysis. That really didn't happen until Brohan and Chaostheory and Blade and myself built this shit up over years of arguing for the inclusion of certain things.

Most of the best stuff has actually been shown recently with Honda/Hugo's meteor bust (582 teratons - country+) that we then used to justify the inclusion of Akuma's meteor bust (608 teratons - country+) from Capcom Fighting Jam (a Capcom-exclusive fighting game). Haggar's Super Piledriver (329 teratons - country+) is from Final Fight Revenge and is primary canon for Cody/Guy and SF by default.

Zangief recently got a new lifting feat in SF6 that shows him fish a submarine out of a frozen lake. This one strength feat shits on every single Tekken characters feats. Best they got is Jack and someone else stopping a moving train, which comes in at like 1/4th the power between two characters.

I have included a collection of feats that are on the calculations thread:


But even without those recent feats, the top tiers in SF were still show to be more powerful and with far more hax abilities than their Tekken counterparts. Akuma alone has soul hax and intangibility that 99% of Tekken character would insta-lose to prior to even the most recent upgrades.

For more info on where SF characters officially stand check the tier list that I did here (first page):

As far as the list of other fighting games and their standings:

1.) Guilty Gear - I believe is like one of the top if not the top dog in standing right now. They have universal showings.
2.) Darkstalkers - Another super strong verse. Easily multi-galactic/galactic top tiers.
3.) Dead or Alive - Large planet level top tiers at least with Ryu Hyubasa in the cast.
4.) Soul Calibur - HEAVILY DEBATED. But considered at least planet level with justifications for going far beyond that with the Astral Chaos shit.
5.) King of Fighters - Pretty sure recent Street Fighter upgrades put them past KoF as of now.

Not sure where Virtua Fighter, BlazBlue, or Samurai Showdown stand.

"Dead or Alive - Large planet level top tiers at least with Ryu Hyubasa in the cast."

Please tell me Dead or Alive is one of the strongest fighting game verses below Guilty Gear and Darkstalkers. I heard that Ninja Gaiden Ryu has a universal feat of some sort?

"King of Fighters - Pretty sure recent Street Fighter upgrades put them past KoF as of now."

Aside from the fact that you still didn't tell me where you scale KoF currently, my reaction to that information is:

Awwwwwwwwwwww man.... I always firmly believed in my heart of hearts that KoF was superior to SF in most if not every other aspect of powerscaling. Even without including crossover top-tiers like Athena (the goddess/princess, not her pop idol descendent, the former who is by far probably my most favorite character in all of SNK, and I find her more awesome than Ingrid her Capcom counterpart, but that's neither here nor there) or whoever else I'm missing... I thought KoF characters on average were always at least fairly superior to their SF counterparts in both power, speed, and hax.

Regardless, I hope we can both agree that KoF, DoA, and Darkstalkers/SF look like the most amazing and interesting fighting game series. if not, that's okay.

But from a simple cursory glance on their wiki, I admit this may sound hotly debatable and contentious by this site's standards, but KoF sorta now mentions a multiverse as of their most recent game XV and it's arguably implied in the game's lore there is an infinite number of them and that a being called the Mother Goddess oversees their creation or destruction from here: https://snk.fandom.com/wiki/The_King_of_Fighters_XV/Team-Character_Stories

"Still, he couldn't stand his master's dull instructions. She spoke passionately of a universe of possibilities that branched off at infinite junctions, a "crucible of souls" traversing the universes to maintain equilibrium, the "Mother Goddess" governing destruction and creation—but it was all old wives' tales to the boy. Not once during meditation did he hear this "voice of the earth" his master spoke of, and before long he grew tired of her fervorous storytelling."

""The crucible of souls connects all universes, converging all possibilities in the multiverse. However, these can only be perceived as illusions, and only a limited few are capable of meddling with them. Those with such abilities are known as 'Amplified Specters'. Neither the crucible of souls nor these illusions appear naturally on this side. But if there are distortions in space-time or resonance with Amplified Specters...such circumstances may entice them to manifest on this plane.""

Now whether this lore all translates into proper feats and scaling for KoF's top-tiers is up to our interpretation and scrutiny. But the plot of the latest KoF game does involve some multiverse-affecting shenanigans. Probably sounds a bit too radical and extreme to put them suddenly up that high, but this is just big info pal.

Also sorry if I'm asking one last silly random question for the night (because I'm bored), but do you think using the term "rapestomp" and "babyshake" in versus debates is really bad and "problematic" (sans this site's culture and community at least) or do you think the adage that words are just words like a certain late comedian said holds true and it's just context/intent and that some people out there are really just overreacting/whining and being way too oversensitive and offended over trivial words used in the jargon and lexicon of a type of niche online community these days?

The KoF stuff just make a meta thread on to gauge the forum and to do feat analysis for. Easy way to bring up stuff like that.

My opinion on the words stuff is that if someone is offended by something that is said just be cool and avoid using the words. You never know what trauma people have. Better to just be kind and err on the side of caution. Great way to live life.

Dead or Alive is one of the stronger fighting game versus for sure.

"The KoF stuff just make a meta thread on to gauge the forum and to do feat analysis for. Easy way to bring up stuff like that."

Okay gotcha.

"Dead or Alive is one of the stronger fighting game versus for sure."

Cool. What do you prefer more as a series? KoF, SF, or DOA? Or equal?

"My opinion on the words stuff is that if someone is offended by something that is said just be cool and avoid using the words. You never know what trauma people have. Better to just be kind and err on the side of caution. Great way to live life."

I personally think while there ain't nothing wrong with wanting to use nicer and polite language or not liking certain words, I think that context and intention is still key to understanding them. And I don't think anyone should have to be language policed in a completely informal setting like this site and that nobody should be mandated to alter their vocabulary or language to accommodate oversensitive people who demand them to talk the way they think they should.

I just think that people with a stick up their ass who will easily go out of their way to deliberately take offense and outrage at any jokes or words, regardless of their underlying meaning, context, or intent and try to forbid others to use certain terms that even sound remotely "crude" or "strong" even when they're actually essentially harmless or inoffensive in a completely casual and informal social community can be some of the most annoying and self-righteous pieces of work out there ya know?

As long as it’s not that serious or actually illegal or harming anyone, we should be entitled to free expression without restricting what words we’re allowed or not allowed to express or articulate in our space. I see type of people like that as no different from boomers who get their panties in a twist and complain about someone using the “F” word or other curse words. Not everything needs this much level of outrage when there are bigger more pressing important matters out there.

I mean being offended by certain specific jargon or terminology for versus debates like “rapestomp” and “babyshake” as edgy vulgar sounding synonyms for “stomps” and objecting to their style of usage on an individual personal level is one thing, and that’s on them, but that doesn’t mean we all have to be/all of us has to do the same.

In short, nobody should need to dictate or police what particular terms one can’t use to call a one-sided match-up between fictional characters in battle or competition or what type of language and words one is not supposed to say in something as painfully trivial and petty as a hobby revolving around fictional debates between opposing make believe characters.

Just my opinion and view. But I’m sure we can both agree on that to an extent. Sorry for the long rant btw.

Street Fighter is my jam. Akuma is like one of my top 3 favorite video characters of all time.

I mean I get what you're saying about "language policing" but people could just redirect the petty stuff back on you and say that it's petty to just not respect people's space when they are asking for a little decorum. Knowwhatimean?

It is what it is. I usually just try to maintain my cool. I only direct my anger towards people that I think are using shitty debate tactics, downplayers, wankers, and generally dishonest posters.

well I guess it depends on the space you’re in and on the person or type of individual they are. as far as this site goes, i think the social environment and culture here is more laissez-faire and anarchistic in regards to language in its ecosystem and that’s what I like about it compared to other sites I been to.

But while it’s nice and even necessary to be more tactful and sensitive with our wording at times, my point is that I advocate the view that no one should have to be chastised and lectured or demonized and complained at so harshly for how they randomly choose to word something as inoffensive as the lopsided results or outcome of a fictitious versus battle or scenario unless there are rules stated explicitly against it. Or how people should be able to freely choose how to express their language in an informal place as long as it comes from a benign or neutral place or is otherwise not directed against any real person or group of people in malice or ill will.

Or I guess I should clarify that my main issue is with needless oversensitivity or disproportionate overreaction to jokes or words from some people who are either too thin-skinned or too strict and stiff on their ways and just write off everything they don’t like or agree with as “problematic” for a knee jerk reaction while ignoring or disregarding whatever actual intent and context behind them exists and trying to assume the worst in others for simply expressing them in a vacuum regardless of whether it’s actually justified or not and how I think nothing positively productive nor enlightening usually comes of it.

Offense is taken, not given. That’s why free speech is a thing (but how we interpret it is another matter). But we can agree to disagree. To each his own.

“I only direct my anger towards people that I think are using shitty debate tactics, downplayers, wankers, and generally dishonest posters.”

Oh if you want to talk about downplayers and dishonest posters, I I’ve definitely faced my share of that on CBR/Comic Book Rumbles for years until I got banned there. CBR is the worst site when it comes to serious debates or accurate powerscaling. And I can’t even begin to tell you how much contempt I actually feel for Rumbles as a debating section and one poster there in particular named Nik. I cannot think of a worse and more terrible downplayer and overall dishonest and idiotic debater than him on any forum I’ve been to. You should have seen his arguments back in the day before the board got wiped and rebooted in 2014.

I can see your point but I've seen far too many trolls hide behind that reasoning to continue to be dicks and use it to put the onus back on those that are trying to make debating a little more civilized.

I personally don't have a problem with "babyshake", as it doesn't evoke any negative feelings when I use the word. However, "rapestomp" does trigger a guttural reaction albeit briefly. Nothing that would potentially prevent me from using it in a certain context. However, I don't want anyone forced to see a term that genuinely offends them if I myself get a even a twinge of discomfort at the word. I put myself in their shoes and go "understandable". It's the whole "put yourself in their shoes" thing.

Different stroke for different folks.

Happy New Year! Sorry for the delayed responses. Been trying to contact my missing mail (found out my 8th grade english class's capsule letter from 2005 is gone forever and torn up from the USPS after my old teacher tried to send it to me during the Fall of 2020) and finding my missing letters (which are also lost in all likelihood too). Sucks having to deal with such losses when one loss to a collection feels like way too many. Anyways:

" I've seen far too many trolls hide behind that reasoning to continue to be dicks and use it to put the onus back on those that are trying to make debating a little more civilized."

Then I guess those trolls are probably just stirring shit up to intentionally annoy people and get a rise out of them. But as I said before, it's how you choose to use certain words and in what context that counts. If it's not deliberately aimed at individuals or groups of real life people like ourselves and rather something more trivial like fictional characters (our love and attachment to them notwithstanding), then it shouldn't be made an issue of. But I get what you mean about not being forced to see terms they don't want to see, but sometimes people have to introspect and wonder why it offends them. It's when people overreact to the point of going out of their way to attack and demonize the other side for using it in a non-malignant context that you know I find... lame.

I think this site (modeled off of OBD I assume) just likes to be more transgressive and less restrained when it comes to their style and brand of humor and I guess most regulars here are expected to maintain a skin about as thick as the armors of Samus or Iron Man and just casually roll with the punches and have a nice laugh and move on. I should know, since I used to be constantly seen and criticized as the oversensitive one myself by many at least over a decade ago until I slowly adapted and came to a realization that many people with the nicest and most polite exteriors tend to have either the most toxic or the most sussy interior (namely on CBR when it comes to debating). I have increasingly grew in preferring someone who's a little more blunt, crass, and over-the-top in their language and choice of words but otherwise chill and agreeable in their intentions and personality than someone who's fake and pretends to be nice, soft, calm, civilized, and mature while showing even the subtlest animosity and hostility in a condescending or passive aggressive manner whenever they disagree with you on anything or is just absolutely stupid and retarded in a dishonest or hypocritical way like one particular poster from CBR I've debated with for years.

Yeah it can be pretty annoying dealing with people from another vs forum. Especially one that is a dumbass stalker that still can't get over the fact that I decimated him over 12 years ago. It's pathetic that he can't accept that Sonic beats Mario and Cloud beats Link.

Yep. I get ya. But you should have seen the debaters at CBR. Those dudes are the most cringe debaters I've seen. I remember the mods will literally ban you as a member of that forum, if they see any posts of yours on any other site calling out the board and criticizing them on their bullshit. So yeah...

Oh and I wanted to add that since you said that you only directed your anger towards people that you think are using shitty debate tactics, downplayers, wankers, and generally dishonest posters (which I can relate to a degree), there is just something I wished to ask your perspective on this...

If someone was say downplaying the cosmology of the verse you're arguing in favor of and a character's feats scaling to it and no matter how much you try to convince them otherwise with good arguments to refute their downplaying, and some other annoying debater you also hate comes in and uses your anger against you by telling you to "provide evidence that supports your claim. Don't start attempting to condescend another poster and claiming bias on his part simply because he is arguing against you and doing a decent job apparently of refuting your claims."

And when you tell them that you're simply just angry because you're tired of the downplaying that this same poster engages in multiple past threads you've seen in, this same poster accusing you of being rude and condescending tells you: "That is no excuse for you being rude to another poster disagreeing with you.

Especially when you haven't posted any real feats and, there is a strong case for you trying to argue that a fringe performance of a character is somehow the rule for his presentation.

This is a debate board, this means you have to debate and provide evidence for said claims. People disagreeing with you isn't "downplaying," it's how debate works."

No joke. That is what that one dumbass poster (who has a bunch of intellectually dishonest garbage versus takes himself btw) literally told me in a debate where someone else was downplaying all of Greek cosmology to below planet level in some Typhon vs Cthulhu thread when I pointed out that Zeus and Typhon's clashes were destroying the universe as a side effect and that there are statements of at least parts of the Greek mythology's cosmology being "infinite" or "endless" in size.

What would your response be to them in any other debate with a similar accusation towards you? I'm curious.