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i mean ultimately my original point still stands Madara with Sage Mode because of his boyfriend’s jizz is bullshit :doge Kabuto being the one to create and give it to Madara just makes it more contrived, but it doesn’t change anything. Still bullshit. Hopefully nothing that egregious happens with Blackbeard and other future Big Bads from other good shows, and instead there is a better focus on them actually doing cool shit without the author fucking over his own magic system

Its a plot device used to make Madara stronger Asspulls in this context is a convenient plot device or ability pulled at the expense of the internal logic of the story. Creating clones that somehow manage to instantly know skills that the original user had to train to achieve despite not even being sentient or even having a soul? You’re basically creating a homunculus that violates the pre-established magic system for the sake of making the villain stronger That’s an ass pull. Straight up pulling an ability out his ass

Not only obtuse, this is honestly incredibly arbitrary. If you don’t consider Kabuto inventing plot convenient flesh robots that violate every pre-established rule about jutsu up until that point, right at the final arc? then Asspulls are ultimately just an arbitrary word to you anyhow and attributed less because it’s legit, and more on a whim

Even the idea that they’re “soulless” puppets contradicts the fundimental basis of chakra itself The fact that a clone, if they are intellegent, just makes a jutsu without ever learning anything just because it’s related to someone who does contradicts the learning of jutsu Even Itachi, as talented as he was, needed to learn those jutsus. The entire goal of Orochimaru is to learn all jutsu. He wanted the sharingan to copy and LEARN hand signs I don’t understand why you’re so obtuse as to not considering making a literal deus ex machina clone for plot convinience that fucks with established lore NOT an asspull?

the entire concept is an asspull is my point. Like it goes against the entire pre-established notions of how these jutsu work. Kabuto pulling the asspull first doesn’t make what Madara did less of an asspull.

So a genetic clone that has zero consciousness whatsoever is able to do jutsu that the original Itachi had to train and learn to do instead Yeah that’s worse. At least with Kabuto and Orochimaru we know that Orochi has been studying the handsigns and memorizing jutsu as his ultimate goal. A literal brain-dead clone being better at doing a jutsu than the real person who had to work hard to learn it is worse lol.

Imagine if Jiraiya was given Itachi’s Sharingan eyes for some reason, and he suddenly used Izanami out of nowhere despite having zero training or information on how to activate it. It’s a pure asspull here

Kekkei Genkai only give you the ability to mould the chakra necessary to create the element or make a specific ability A “Jutsu” in the same vein as, say, Izanami and Izanagi are supposed to be taught and learned, even though it’s genetically attributed only to the Uchiha. It’s not something you just master because of blood. Even Kekkei Genkai need training. Kabuto knows half the jutsu because Orochimaru literally made it his life mission to document and learn every jutsu and copy handsigns. It makes no logical sense that something previously established that can be achieved only through training and a specific exception of a Clan, is suddenly asspulled through grafting some cells on a dude who never had any formal training in drawing Natural Energy in his life, just because those same clump of cells belonged to someone who actually trained. Pein tried the draw the same thing and one of his paths became a statue. But Madara literally just needed to be Frankenstein a lung from...

Except the asspull isn’t that he copied a genetic Kekke Genkai using genes. It’s the fact that he’s copying Jutsu that ISNT Kekke Genkai through genes You don’t need senju cells to draw Natural energy. Don’t even need to be a wood user. That’s something you learn, not inherent unless you’re part of Jugo’s clan and even then that’s not even technically Sage Mode. That’s the definition of an asspull. The miracle Hashirama Cells.

that’s gayer How is that not an asspull where you basically transplant some cells and somehow master Sage Mode? Something Naruto and Jiraiya needed training to do? And considering someone like Yamato hasn’t displayed it, I can assume even Hashirama needed training for sage mode This is somehow worse than Uchihas ploping eyes in their sockets like they’re lego pieces

Hard agree. Madara wore off for me once he started pulling bullshit off his ass So you put your plant boyfriend’s jizz on your chest and suddenly you can master sage mode? Ok homo :doge

I think what @Proto234 meant was that there were no GOOD GUY qualities. Granted, Jaya had him be inspirational. But it wasn’t in a moral sense, just in a “these dudes don’t understand what it means to strive to the top and chase your dreams” type of shit.

Nigga also a TRUE pirate Fight Kaido for the Poneglyph? Nah Let other people do the hard work, and then jump them to take the poneglyph? True Thug behavior