Aleister Crowley vs Dr. Doom

[Xhominid The Apex]

Touma defending against causality all but being spells out to you?

Which is always seemingly stated by... you...
And the person who also read To Aru and disagreed with... you ignored.
So excuse me if I don't believe you when the things you keep bringing up don't bring in the evidence you claim it does.

Causality being warped to make a fireball be conjured out of thin air

Yes, that does not mean it automatically hits the person through causality, it's only created FROM Causality.

So feats get ignored when you don’t like what you see. That’s now how it should go anywhere

Wow, projection much?

nope, try again

Again, explains how creating Magic through Causality can affect Phases, it does not mean the Magic itself is carried out through Causality, you are conflating one aspect with an entirely different aspect.
I can't believe I have to be the one to tell you that but apparently, I have to.

So prove Casuality Manipulation explicitly happens from Spiritual Tapping to affect Doom and this will be all over because every other bit of your evidence doesn't touch that in the slightest and if anything, shows it has to be implanted in the target's head though Aliester forcing it.

 

[Paxton]

When did I disagree with Astaro about magic affecting causality?

 

[Astaro]

Which is always seemingly stated by... you...
And the person who also read To Aru and disagreed with... you ignored.
So excuse me if I don't believe you when the things you keep bringing up don't bring in the evidence you claim it does

Your hardly credible or honest to be saying this Xhom

Yes, that does not mean it automatically hits the person through causality, it's only created FROM Causality.

No because causality isn’t being changed to make it a sure fire hit

Wow, projection much?

When have I ignored anything?

Catching people in a lie by avoiding context for a feat they posted is not just ignoring the feat, but correcting what’s actually being done.

Again, explains how creating Magic through Causality can affect Phases, it does not mean the Magic itself is carried out through Causality, you are conflating one aspect with an entirely different aspect.
I can't believe I have to be the one to tell you that but apparently, I have to.

Read the above scan I posted with Allan Bennet. It answers all your questions about how Phases are involved.

So prove Casuality Manipulation explicitly happens from Spiritual Tapping to affect Doom and this will be all over because every other bit of your evidence doesn't touch that in the slightest and if anything, shows it has to be implanted in the target's head though Aliester forcing it.

It does because it’s magic and that’s how magic in the series works.

Specifically in this case, causality is being altered to turn his thoughts into reality

 

[xenos5]

Or that it’s even more potent? You’ve got the text already given to you that Magic is messing with causality as well.

Not even just the direct result, but it even causes changes in fate for the rest of the world every time a mage performs magic

Does Crowley himself do shit like what his daughter did without the use of miracles?

I can give you another example of a causality manipulation ability than Return to Zero if you can give me a feat of Crowley actually doing something directly similar



Another thing worth mentioning is if ALL magic abilities manipulated causality like you said they shouldn’t even need to travel and shouldn’t be dodgeable by normal means. Like the character in the video I linked events should just skip to the point they already achieved what they wanted to do without even having to move.

 

[Astaro]

Does Crowley himself do shit like what his daughter did without the use of miracles?

I can give you another example of a causality manipulation ability than Return to Zero if you can give me a feat of Crowley actually doing something directly similar




Another thing worth mentioning is if ALL magic abilities manipulated causality like you said they shouldn’t even need to travel and shouldn’t be dodgeable by normal means. Like the character in the video I linked events should just skip to the point they already achieved what they wanted to do without even having to move.

You don’t get to that stuff until we get to Magic God territory and Im not digging up the scans for that as it’s just another tangent

Ive posted plenty as it is and I’m literally repeating what the quotes themselves say

Magic in general twists causality for the spell they want and to such a degree it causes an unknown blacklash somewhere else in the world or in another time, be it something minor like affecting the outcome of a coin toss or something as extreme as giving someone a fated, spontaneous death with no prior cause that could lead to it

This is basic shit being spelled out for you

 

[xenos5]

You don’t get to that stuff until we get to Magic God territory and Im not digging up the scans for that as it’s just another tangent

Ive posted plenty as it is and I’m literally repeating what the quotes themselves say

Magic in general twists causality for the spell they want and to such a degree it causes an unknown blacklash somewhere else in the world or in another time, be it something minor like affecting the outcome of a coin toss or something as extreme as giving someone a fated, spontaneous death with no prior cause that could lead to it

This is basic shit being spelled out for you

So you need a magic god to be able to replicate what Gilzea did? That seems pretty damning to me.

It sounds more like you’re trying to pass off the butterfly effect as if it was actually hax. Abilities that directly affect causality should do similar things to what Gilzea did. And I really don’t buy basic spells in ToAru can do that.

 

[Astaro]

So you need a magic god to be able to replicate what Gilzea did? That seems pretty damning to me.

It sounds more like you’re trying to pass off the butterfly effect as if it was actually hax. Abilities that directly affect causality should do similar things to what Gilzea did. And I really don’t buy basic spells in ToAru can do that.

Don’t need to waste any effort with someone ignoring scans

Guess that’s all you got left after lying about Doom’s feats didn’t work out

 

[Paxton]

Actually hold on. I think mr.omg mentioned something like this before (it was in a side story iirc).

@Mr.OMG What were you talking about?

 

[xenos5]

Don’t need to waste any effort with someone ignoring scans

I can see what the scans say perfectly well. I just think you’re interpreting them in a way that overinflates the entire verse unjustifiably.

I will again say the one instance you posted with Aleister’s daughter is closer to what I would actually call causality manipulation.

I am not saying causality manipulation doesn’t exist at all as an ability in the ToAru verse. I just do not think every character can casually do with magic what she did with a miracle. It would not be emphasized to be as impressive as it was if that was the case.

 

[Astaro]

I can see what the scans say perfectly well. I just think you’re interpreting them in a way that overinflates the entire verse unjustifiably.

I will again say the one instance you posted with Aleister’s daughter is closer to what I would actually call causality manipulation.

I am not saying causality manipulation doesn’t exist at all as an ability in the ToAru verse. I just do not think every character can casually do with magic what she did with a miracle. It would not be emphasized to be as impressive as it was if that was the case.

Call it what you want. Your still just blowing it off in favor of your headcanon

 

[CrossTheHorizon]

This is getting kinda sad at this point. Not sure why losing to fucking Doom has the Toaru boys so riled up when it's practically a rite of passage, but we're reaching the point of clapping hands over ears and screaming "Lalala" really loud.

@Masterblack06 kinda feel like it's run its course, shouldn't it get locked since the OP is the only one arguing for it?

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Your hardly credible or honest to be saying this Xhom

The fact you said that and actually believe it to be true is the saddest thing I have heard.
I AM credible, far more than you or Paxton could ever be. Just because ya'll asses get fucking terrified anytime I actually bring in logic to what nonsense you 2 throw out, does not mean my credibility is on the line.

So this will be my last post here and I will say this completely and matter of factly when I do:

Kiss my Black Ass, you no credibility, Spacebattles wannabe, can't even debate in good faith without going into an absolute fucking tangent, ultimately no different than Paxton, No Aru bot.
This is the Land of The Lost, the day I have no credibility at all is the day To Aru actually gets it's shit accepted... which won't happen because you dragged @Cryso Agori and threw him out for daring to not fully agreeing with what you stated and he actually was more credible than either of you two.
Hell, Churrozon is more credible than you two and he doesn't even post that often because at the very least, he actually backs up what he states.

 

[Paxton]

Yes because Astaro's the one going into tangents when you're the one who brought up things such as series popularity in the first place.

Astaro's not perfect about arguing in good faith, don't get me wrong, but neither are you. See literally every time you call me a liar and yet when I ask you to elaborate you don't say shit (MB even had to go and ask you to cut it out).

So this whole "Just because you guys get terrified anytime I actually bring in logic to what nonsense you 2 throw out, does not mean my credibility is on the line" is fairly ironic given your past behavior.

You're no better than Astaro, in many ways.


Whatever floats your boat though.

 

[Mr.OMG]

Does Crowley himself do shit like what his daughter did without the use of miracles?

I can give you another example of a causality manipulation ability than Return to Zero if you can give me a feat of Crowley actually doing something directly similar



Another thing worth mentioning is if ALL magic abilities manipulated causality like you said they shouldn’t even need to travel and shouldn’t be dodgeable by normal means. Like the character in the video I linked events should just skip to the point they already achieved what they wanted to do without even having to move.

At the very least, curses are capable of doing this, attacking with causality. Curses ignore the concept of distance and can attack an enemy wherever they are, theoretically even in another world.

This was of course not perfect. However, if one knew it was not perfect, one could easily set up other traps in the few holes remaining.

"By the way," said the voice.

"?"

"I've been wondering. Is there any logical reason to use a communication method based on a precious metal curse? That method has no religious base and using a piece of folklore with an unknown origin does not seem like it would have very stable rules to me."

"True," spat out Freadia politely.

That comment did not match her ideology.

A curse was a method of attacking someone remotely by directly linking the cause and the effect. And yet the story of the diamond that mysteriously killed each of its owners was missing that "cause". It had not been acquired by ransacking a king's grave. People had not killed each other in order to acquire it. It was something someone had just so happened to find one day, yet it killed people.

A theory with clear rules was easy to use, amplify, and control. But on the other hand, it would have a set upper limit from the beginning. A single unit of fuel would cause a single phenomenon. That was all it was.

But this cursed jewel with vague rules held the possibility of breaking through that upper limit. Its cause and effect were not clearly known, but it undoubtedly spread its curse. Something about that reminded Freadia of a power that ignored cause and effect like a perpetual motion machine.

"I have my reasons. I do. Yes, in all things, it is healthier for diversity to spread."

And while anyone can manipulate causality (like Lilith, or the passengers on a falling airplane who used a miracle to distort causality to survive), magicians are more likely to do something different.

Causality in the context of magic has a different meaning. Causality is laws or destiny within the human world. Mages have to create separate temples or worlds with laws from higher worlds to rewrite/break causality to create impossible phenomena for the human world (or at least for the current laws).

“The Voodoo specialty known as the zombie is not about making musty old corpses rise from the dead. You use special chemicals to intentionally harm someone’s body in order to remove the Ti Bon Ange from the five components of the soul. The spell is used to rob the person of their mind and remake them into a living unit you can control. The Ceremony of Ba Moun uses a demon as an amplifier to forcibly shift things up a level, bringing it from the micro to the macro. Simply put, it intentionally makes the physical world ill in order to control the diseased area. But that’s still only a small portion of the whole. The appendix is a tiny aspect of your physical body’s entire volume, right? And yet it can still bring you endless and excruciating pain until it is removed.”

“…”

“In Phase Theory terms, I guess you could call it corrupting the current phase instead of inserting a new phase of your own. But like I said, this spell has abandoned the entire concept of safety, so the corruption will reach the magician themselves sooner or later.”



“Having a closed environment is the foundation of magical combat. In fact, we construct temples by isolating a miniature world and twisting the laws within to a certain extent. The more special the location, the easier that is to do.”

“So you mean it’s like a game where the objective is dyeing as much of the field in your own colors as possible. I understand that reasoning, but…ksshh…”



The most basic act for a magician was the mental task of converting their body’s life force into magical power. Another basic act was dividing off a miniature world as a temple and temporarily twisting the laws within in order to call in the power of leylines, Telesma, or something else. Performing those different ceremonies could be called the miniature version of the modern Western magic style of summoning.

And I can also remember of barriers for churches that were able to partially protect against the Fall of the Angel, which distorted the past, present, and future of all humanity, or the history and destiny of the entire world. So in a sense, mage barriers should protect against the distortion of causality, though by my own admission I don't know how well.

 

[Ral]

Timeout.

 

[Ral]

Thread temporarily locked pending review by OBD section moderators.

 

[Darth Nihilus]