Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 3: Laugh Hard with a Vengence

[Xhominid The Apex]

Doesn't Goetia literally run hands with Quetz on some Jojo barrage type shit or is that another Servant I'm thinking of?

It was actually Nightingale herself:

This is why I tend to find it funny why SB and Reddit tend to ignore the shit she does and pretend it somehow scales off nobody... despite fighting Cu Alter even when hopped up with a DGP aiding him, drawing with Edmond Dantes and basically throwing down with people near the same level as the KOTR who have been casual in their absurd bullshit in the Camelot movies.

EDIT: Hell, it's the same feat All Might and the Noumu he fought was... except most likely neither was going all out yet.

 

[GaRbS]

I still don't see how that matters considering again, Goetia's Durability was never his strongest attribute for pete sake...

So are you saying durability doesn't scale with magical energy or not?

Him not using it to the same extent as Enkidu doesn't stop the fact that he's a stronger Enkidu at the end of the day.

So what evidence do you have that the Age of Babylon used in FGO is as strong as the one in FSF?

And as a casual reminder, Nero's "Chaos" required the equivalent of blowing up a Continent to get rid of his extremely small amount by comparison:

The little Chaos Tide that Quetzalcoatl evaporated doesn't scale to Nrvnqsr Chaos' Soil of Genesis so that's irrelevant. Not to mention that old Tsukihime isn't even canon anymore.

Do I have to point out everyone whose capable of dodging light based attacks? From Surtr Sigurd to Dioscuri to GalahadMash? Odysseus and Circe literally dance around auto firing lasers for fuck sake.

Genos can dodge light-based attacks too and he's a status to Platinum Spem so...

That's just the first use, the later use we get from it would have destabilized and destroy the entire Singularity

This isn't as big as what Beefcake destroyed tho.

So having the same Magical Scale and Power =/= having the durability to scale otherwise?

No, why would it? Because again, the Demon God Pillar's feat is nothing related to combat or attack power.

And Goetia getting his arm cut off by "Servants"(Hilarious you didn't specify which... and that's Rama, someone on the same level as Karna and Arjuna in his weakest class) isn't Goetia's main issue when he cannot die like any of the other DGP's due to how they are linked up(And let's ignore him boxing with Nightingale, who can literally kick Spriggans heads clean off despite them being the size of skyscrapers)

The one who cut off his arm was Nero, dude.

She's a God and has an Authority... I'm pretty sure that becoming the very concept means she can by default.

That's on you to prove so...

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

So are you saying durability doesn't scale with magical energy or not?

No, I'm actually saying you are ignoring the fact that he cannot die in the Temple of Time to begin with and the only person to slice off his arm was Rama, someone on the same tier as Karna and Arjuna and has an advantage against Demons at that.

So what evidence do you have that the Age of Babylon used in FGO is as strong as the one in FSF?

Okay, a question for that question:
Prove that it isn't. I already told you before that Servant feats don't vanish because of a different Universe. The only time we even hear of a different Throne of Heroes is from Proto-Arthur and Proto-Merlin and Arash, Ozymandias, Brynhildr and Paracelsus still remember the shit they did in Prototype Fragments, why the hell would their strength levels be different outside of stronger or a weaker Master and a potentially gimped summon?

The little Chaos Tide that Quetzalcoatl evaporated doesn't scale to Nrvnqsr Chaos' Soil of Genesis so that's irrelevant. Not to mention that old Tsukihime isn't even canon anymore.

What?! The "Little" Quetzalcoatl evaporated? Okay, you are just fucking with me so in that sense:


Tiamat's Primordial Sea is True Chaos, there is fundamentally no difference between them and the new host has the same size as Nero's.
And finally, Old Tsukihime was never rendered non-canon, the hell are you talking about?!
The Tsukihime Remake takes place 10+ years after the original version and that didn't happen with any other adaptation from the Nasuverse thus far, so why this one? Or are you making shit up again?

Genos can dodge light-based attacks too and he's a status to Platinum Spem so...

Yeah that's not how that works, especially when we get a timer that shows that Platinum Sperm went base FTL at the end of the day. All that states is that either lasers are slower in OPM(Which would make Genos Sub-Relativistic) in comparison to the lasers we see in the Nasuverse legitimately uses Light as a basis... or we end up with the Metal Bat being FTL scenario due to keeping up with Garou at that point and everyone is FTL... right? So by that logic, so is Quetzalcoatl anyway.

This isn't as big as what Beefcake destroyed tho.

Actually it is considering even in OPM, that was considered a Town and there is a decent chunk of it left over compared to Fergus leaving nothing left and he didn't even try.

No, why would it? Because again, the Demon God Pillar's feat is nothing related to combat or attack power.

Lifting Laputa to drop it onto a populated city to the point the damage would be catastrophic on it's own to the Planet... isn't demonstrative of combat or attack power?!

The one who cut off his arm was Nero, dude.

Oh, the Roman Emperor who held off Excalibur Galatine... twice?


How does that make your point better?

 

[Type-Rey]

Not to mention that old Tsukihime isn't even canon anymore.

Yeah, except in MB TL esbablishes that Neco Arc can go to the old continuity, so not only it's still canon, it's still kept in mind

Are you ever gonna get something right ?

 

[GaRbS]

Prove that it isn't.

That's proving a negative, which not is impossible but isn't proper debating.

I already told you before that Servant feats don't vanish because of a different Universe. The only time we even hear of a different Throne of Heroes is from Proto-Arthur and Proto-Merlin and Arash, Ozymandias, Brynhildr and Paracelsus still remember the shit they did in Prototype Fragments, why the hell would their strength levels be different outside of stronger or a weaker Master and a potentially gimped summon?

This has nothing to do with different universe stuff. I'm asking you to prove that the Age of Babylon that Kingu used in Babylonia is as strong as the AoG Enkidu used in FSF. Because Enkidu used it to much greater extent there.
You do know that AoG and GoB have levels to them, no? Not every weapon spam is as strong as the other.

And finally, Old Tsukihime was never rendered non-canon, the hell are you talking about?!

FGO works with the cosmology and lore elements of the Tsukihime Remake. Old Tsukihime isn't part of that.

Yeah that's not how that works, especially when we get a timer that shows that Platinum Sperm went base FTL at the end of the day. All that states is that either lasers are slower in OPM(Which would make Genos Sub-Relativistic) in comparison to the lasers we see in the Nasuverse legitimately uses Light as a basis... or we end up with the Metal Bat being FTL scenario due to keeping up with Garou at that point and everyone is FTL... right? So by that logic, so is Quetzalcoatl anyway.

Or maybe, just maybe dodging light attacks in all settings is a fucking worthless feat. Don't try to make excuses for why it's valid for Fate only.

Lifting Laputa to drop it onto a populated city to the point the damage would be catastrophic on it's own to the Planet... isn't demonstrative of combat or attack power?!

No, because again, the lifting is done via a power that isn't used for combat. A power that doesn't scale to physical strength or durability.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

I'm even reading the Tsukihime Remake Interview and Nasu nor Takeuchi ever stated the old game is non-canon a single time and if anything, makes note of the massive time jump instead of putting it in the same timeline:

Spoiler

Spoiler

And if Melty Blood: Type Lumina actually does bring up the old game is still in continuity, then ultimately nothing changes(Hell, it just tells you that the characters remain the same outside of Ciel getting more tools and Arcueid getting Luminous and considering Arcueid never reaches a time where she would need Luminous in the old continuity...)

 

[Paxton]

Why would the two Age of Babylon's be different in strength again?

Unless there are specific circumstances in play, there's literally no reason to assume that it's any weaker or stronger than another usage of it.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

That's proving a negative, which not is impossible but isn't proper debating.

Except I DID prove your negative. It's no different than Majin Buu having the same Ki as everyone else yet due to his elastic body, he has no need to actually make himself be defensive.
Goetia would have no need to go defensive in the Temple of Time because remember, Mash did irreparable damage to his Solomon form which is why he abandoned it to go Goetia to begin with but by your logic, there's no reason that should have happened either.

This has nothing to do with different universe stuff. I'm asking you to prove that the Age of Babylon that Kingu used in Babylonia is as strong as the AoG Enkidu used in FSF. Because Enkidu used it to much greater extent there.
You do know that AoG and GoB have levels to them, no? Not every weapon spam is as strong as the other.

Different Universes connected to the same Throne of Heroes. This is literal VSB nonsense of believing the Moon Cell Servants is beyond Earth Servants because "Super Computer crap here".
And we see from Gilgamesh and Enkidu's own battle in F/SF that they are relatively equal and Kingu has shown no difference except for Enkidu's pragmatism in the Solomon Movie.

FGO works with the cosmology and lore elements of the Tsukihime Remake. Old Tsukihime isn't part of that.

@Type-Rey Literally just told you Neko-Arc's ending outright has her go back to Tsukihime's Old Continuity...
And uh GaRbs? The Primordial Sea IS from Tsukihime's Old Continuity!

Or maybe, just maybe dodging light attacks in all settings is a fucking worthless feat. Don't try to make excuses for why it's valid for Fate only.

Bruh?! Do you forget how this shit works even in Spacebattles? Because I sure as shit didn't.
Magecraft literally replicates and creates phenomena that has been discovered, that includes Lightning and LIGHT. This was known since Cu was Lugh Lamfada's son.
We know that's shit they can do because that was established, that's how debate rules work. Prove that Lasers in OPM are real life light and you may have a point.

No, because again, the lifting is done via a power that isn't used for combat. A power that doesn't scale to physical strength or durability.

That doesn't even make sense, are you shitting me?!
That's like saying we should ignore Kingu can fly through the heavy use of Ether in Babylonia at all and just focus on the 500KMPH as the only thing that matters.
If he can fly as can Gilgamesh, that counts as their power in everything, including combat!

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Why would the two Age of Babylon's be different in strength again?

Unless there are specific circumstances in play, there's literally no reason to assume that it's any weaker or stronger than another usage of it.

GaRbS is going with the absolute non-factor that somehow, Servants are stronger and/or weaker in different continuities... except this was disproven since BB and the Sakura 5 are in FGO and are treated like they are in CCC and they still get their asses kicked.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Majin Buu isn’t a good example.

He can make himself just as tough as anyone at his level or make himself malleable enough for bullets to pass through him.

I know that, I'm pointing out that Majin Buu can do that but for most battles, he just doesn't and let his regen do it instead.

 

[Type-Rey]

Enkidu can only use AoB to create weapons of the era he's in.

Modern times , you get rocket launchers
Babylon Era, you get spears.

It could mean a little difference, but i'm thinking more about utility than power outright since obviously both the spear and the rocket launcher would get elevated to a superior level when crafted and used by a Servant.

 

[Astaro]

I know that, I'm pointing out that Majin Buu can do that but for most battles, he just doesn't and let his regen do it instead.

I don’t see the similarities between Goetia and Majin Buu

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Enkidu can only use AoB to create weapons of the era he's in.

Modern times , you get rocket launchers
Babylon Era, you get spears.

It could mean a little difference, but i'm thinking more about utility than power outright since obviously both the spear and the rocket launcher would get elevated to a superior level when crafted and used by a Servant.

I think in his battle with Theia, it really did ultimately come out to it being little difference, was still a threat to... whatever the hell he was regardless.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

I don’t see the similarities between Goetia and Majin Buu

Basically, Goetia has no need to aim for defense while in the Temple of Time because just like the rest of the DGPs formed from him, they cannot die as long as the Reality Marble stays intact filling them with Magical Energy from Solomon's Magical Circuits.

Majin Buu can defend himself like you stated... it's just do his bottomless levels of Ki and regen powers, he really doesn't need to and can just eat attacks and fight with abandon.

 

[Astaro]

Basically, Goetia has no need to aim for defense while in the Temple of Time because just like the rest of the DGPs formed from him, they cannot die as long as the Reality Marble stays intact filling them with Magical Energy from Solomon's Magical Circuits.

Majin Buu can defend himself like you stated... it's just do his bottomless levels of Ki and regen powers, he really doesn't need to and can just eat attacks and fight with abandon.

So you agree Goetia’s durability doesn’t scale to his magic output

 

[Paxton]

I'm pretty sure it does though.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

So you agree Goetia’s durability doesn’t scale to his magic output

No it does, I'm just saying he's not using that output for his durability in the same fashion as Majin Buu.

 

[Cryso Agori]

This has nothing to do with different universe stuff. I'm asking you to prove that the Age of Babylon that Kingu used in Babylonia is as strong as the AoG Enkidu used in FSF. Because Enkidu used it to much greater extent there.
You do know that AoG and GoB have levels to them, no? Not every weapon spam is as strong as the other.

Bruh, the translated FSF fight between Thia and Enkidu literally says that Enkidu circumvents the age problem with his NP because he himself is old as fuck and can pull on the earth for energy, which is why his guns and spears and match Gil's.

General Type-Moon Discussion Thread 3: Vermillion Seifuku Mains Gather! (PLEASE READ THE THREADMARKS!!!)

New FSF trans just dropped.

forums.spacebattles.com

Wisdom of the people
Age of Babylon
.

This Noble Phantasm has the special property of constantly "updating" with Enkidu's every summon as a Heroic Spirit.

The ability to draw from the planet's memory and produce various objects.

The very act of copying human history.

Therefore, the longer time passes, the denser, higher, and deeper is the data they gain.

The Heroic Spirit Enkidu can expand the range of civilization they can replicate by connecting themself to many different eras.

Think of a hypothetical situation where someone could summon Enkidu to multiple different eras. If Enkidu was summoned to the ancient Babylonia from their lifetime, they would be limited to reproducing only the weapons they came to know in life or other weapons men had already created in that era in that land.

Conversely, were they summoned to a future beyond the Holy Grail War in Snowfield, they would be summoning numerous that can only be considered impossible fantasies nowadays.

Although that's not necessarily a good thing.

Much like the greatest modern firearm can't compare to the radiance of a Holy Sword, in a battle of Noble Phantasm newer doesn't necessarily mean stronger.

It is known in the world of magecraft that the closer something is to the Age of Gods, the more pronouncedly arcane it is. And even on more realistic terms, it's inadvisable to face a 16th-century grapeshot cannon with a 21st-century pistol.

However, this Noble Phantasm belongs to Enkidu, whose very foundation is already arcane.

Every individual bullet in a Gatling gun would be boosted with magical energy to destroy enemy Saint Graphs. The latest model of fighter jet would be empowered enough to compete in a flying race against a mid-level dragon.

Gilgamesh collected the peaks of human potential in his Gate of Babylon. One of the articles stored there is Vimana. Replicating that would, needless to say, require being summoned either in a far distant future, the era when humanity reaches its peak, or in the opposite extreme, the era when humanity was ruled by the star-crossing gods. And replicating key elements such as the bodies of these alien gods or the planet's Holy Sword would require using parts of world itself or treasures of equal value from Gilgamesh's treasury as ingredients.

Nevertheless, there's a reason why this Noble Phantasm is comparable to Gate of Babylon: the number of weapons Enkidu shapes from dirt is the number created by Human Order after parting ways with the gods. That means they use the land as a means for mass production.

Enkidu managed to create numerous weapons considered state-of-the-art half a century ago, just one step below the current standard of weaponry.

One of those is this giant anti-aircraft gun and its every shot is boosted by Enkidu's magical energy.

 

[Adamant soul]

H2 Ichigo vs FB Bankai Ichigo

Half Cloak

www.fanverse.org

Zangetsu shits all over him.

> H2?
> Shitting all over the guy who torched Mustache's arm and forced him to use actual effort to break his Blut Vene?


Even if we were talking pre-Quincy powers, it's at most an even match-up, which I'd still give to Ichigo on account of being able to think clearly and just going for the mask. But either way, H2 doesn't "shit all over" a fucking thing.

Shikai Kenpachi vs Fullbring Bankai Ichigo

Ichigo Vs Kenpachi No Eyepatch Ichigo has his quincy powers

www.fanverse.org

You know I really would have thought episode 7 would have shut down a lot of this downplay of the post-Quincy version of FB Ichigo.

But NOPE, apparently Shikai Kenpachi is enough to prompt a 3 page argument and most are saying he wins. ha

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

H2 Ichigo vs FB Bankai Ichigo

Half Cloak

www.fanverse.org

> H2?
> Shitting all over the guy who torched Mustache's arm and forced him to use actual effort to break his Blut Vene?


Even if we were talking pre-Quincy powers, it's at most an even match-up, which I'd still give to Ichigo on account of being able to think clearly and just going for the mask. But either way, H2 doesn't "shit all over" a fucking thing.

Shikai Kenpachi vs Fullbring Bankai Ichigo

Ichigo Vs Kenpachi No Eyepatch Ichigo has his quincy powers

www.fanverse.org

You know I really would have thought episode 7 would have shut down a lot of this downplay of the post-Quincy version of FB Ichigo.

But NOPE, apparently Shikai Kenpachi is enough to prompt a 3 page argument and most are saying he wins. ha

Honestly, FB Bankai Ichigo actually has access to his Hollow powers at all times, he basically IS H2 Ichigo with extra power at that.
I'm not sure why people think it's any different when this week's episode has him do Arrancar abilities to avoid detection by the Sternritter.