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Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Flowering Knight

Exceptional
V.I.P. Member
I'll say it again, there was no conversation on To Aru being universal, let alone multiversal until a couple of bots from Spergbattles showed up. They can call me wrong, say I "don't get the cosmology" as much as they want, but then post shit like Touma (who gets his ass beat by regular people) being able to beat Saitama because "lol To Aru, different normal, phases, etc".

It really says something when there's more evidence for shit like universal bleach than there is any of this. Hell, even if it was universal, it wouldn't matter because the original "debate" in the OP was settled the moment it started, with To Aru getting stomped to hell and back.

Personally? I'm thinking either a ban on To Aru altogether the same way folks like Yhwach and Gojo got banned. Since every thread so far that has used the verse has been cancerous as fuck.
 

OtherGalaxy

ยสี่สี่สี่สี่สี่สี่สี่สี่ สี่สี
V.I.P. Member
banning toaru is stupid imo


no series as a whole should ever be banned from a vs section, the point of this hobby is to figure out how to rationalize these things no matter how ridiculous they are

that said I don't see how universal toaru is somehow unbelievable. Beyond that? sure debate that to death but the original thread Rev had made (that got deleted for some reason) had more than enough evidence of that

and I'm not a toaru fan by any means couldnt give less of a fuck about that series but let's not be disingenuous just because it's a hated series in the obd
 

Cryso Agori

V.I.P. Member
Heh, there's 51 volumes of Index alone with OT, NT, and GT it takes some time to find cosmology feats in all those books.


You see I would've agreed with that before yesterday if @Irradiance hadn't piqued my interest. It would be a stretch if the words universe and world were used interchangeably, but from what @Irradiance said and what I've checked over this isn't the case.

Unlike how earth and phases are used interchangeably with world.

In both the Baka-Tsuki translations, and the official Yen Press translations universe is only really used when bringing up the big bang.

Even so, Kamijou did not feel any fear. The scale was simply too great. Apparently the universe was constantly expanding due to the big bang, but no one could concretely feel the universe expanding with their 5 senses.
(OT 18)

(OT 22)

Yen Press OT 22


Yen Press OT 18


When referring to the verse everywhere else the word world is used.

Yen Press Volume 1



Baka-Tsuki's version

And well New Testament 12 and 13.

New Testament 12

New Testament 13
You checked the farthest reaches of the universe and all of the piled-up phases and you realized there was nothing new left.

This is about as explicit as you can get. Not only is the universe considered separate from phases and the world. But since the quote from NT 12 is listing things in ascending order. Starting with smallest going to largest means that the 'world' is larger than the 'universe' created from the big bang.

Hell, the universe is explicitly said to be expanding at relativistic time just like ours. But the world is considered larger.

Oh yeah, guess what I found.

The first ever volume of Toaru states grimoires holds knowledge of a different world.


Since parallel worlds don't exist I wonder what those 'different worlds' are.

Phases

Keep winning Japanese Suggs man.

 

Cryso Agori

V.I.P. Member
but then post shit like Touma (who gets his ass beat by regular people) being able to beat Saitama because "lol To Aru, different normal, phases, etc".

Touma isn't beating Saitama that I agree with but everything else.

NT 9.




OT 2.


NT 18.



NT 22

The author>you. Plus this shit been explained and repeated in multiple volumes, that's the reason why we say you guys don't understand shit.

This isn't something introduced out of nowhere, this is something explained and brought up in the middle of the series and doesn't contradict what is previously stated. It's called foreshadowing/worldbuilding. Not suddenly retconning shit. Because guess what, New Testament isn't the end of Toaru, it's continuing with Genesis Testament, which is still ongoing with 6 volumes out currently. And it started in 2020, only two years ago.


You'd have a point if this was suddenly introduced in GT 6 but it wasn't. You guys act like Old Testament, New Testament, and Genesis Testament are separate series or something.

Also, truthfully me and half the Toaru fandom think that Touma isn't even human. Like he has literal dragons in his arm that aren't a part of Imagine Breaker. And IB is said to be sealing them away.



Has the Invisible Thing which also isn't connected to Imagine Breaker or the dragons. And recreates Imagine Breaker after Fiamma absorbs it.

https://www.facebook.com/
Hell in New Testament 22 Reverse Imagine Breaker literally dumps Touma and splits off from him. Becoming a fake copy of him known as Kamijou No Touma.


And Touma's right hand is replaced by Dragon Shell, which allows him to turn into a dragon.





And his own cousin's name is Tatsugami Otohime which literally translates to Dragon God Princess.

Otohime's surname means "Dragon God or King" and her first name means "youngest princess".

So Touma probably ain't even a human but some sort of Dragon God.
 
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Okay and? We have had plenty of times where the Servantverse's Shining Blue Galaxy was referred to as a Galaxy and Universe as well as Bel Maana being a Galaxy AND a Universe at once, that doesn't mean it's just one or the other.
Secondly, are you certain that those translations are even 100% sound? Fan Translations have been known to become REALLY shit or primarily confusing as hell because of that same deal.
Because again, we have had that same problem with alot of LN's and VN's, including with some shit like either FGO's early translations, Bleach and CFYOW and so on and so forth.

The author>you. Plus this shit been explained and repeated in multiple volumes, that's the reason why we say you guys don't understand shit.

The Author doesn't take precedence dude, that's the entire point of Feats > Statements. The author ONLY takes precedence when the feats in question primarily fit with what we have seen with the feats in question(i.e. If someone dodges a Lightning Bolt but it's iffy due to not having an explanation of whether it's real or not and the author states it's a real Lightning Bolt, then we take it as true).

The big problem with Touma is that alot of his abilities doesn't even translate well into VS. topics or even his own series consistently(He has to constantly run away from some Espers as they can figure him out easily and murder him... but then, he can suddenly take on characters like Clarissa or Othinus because of ONE Magical Artifact that gives them the same silly boost and that suddenly amps his strength to "their level"? This type of shit makes Kirito blush) so it's hard to wonder why you will have people that don't really believe that somehow he'll be "ultra effective" against beings that are beyond his paygrade because "IB scales to who he fights" when it never did that shit against people like Izzard who literally makes his Illusions real through Reality Warping or Accelerator.
 

Cryso Agori

V.I.P. Member
I’ve DM’d the main translator of the Toaru novels on twitter.


So you and me are gonna have to wait on that unfortunately.

Secondly.
The big problem with Touma is that alot of his abilities doesn't even translate well into VS. topics or even his own series consistently(He has to constantly run away from some Espers as they can figure him out easily and murder him..
Yeah this misconception needs to stop. Touma is not useless against normal people. Hell I can’t remember anytime he actually needed to run against fodder espers except for volume 1 of OT.

Case in point. New Testament 11.


Which is more like a side story cause it’s an arc that follows Misaki instead of Touma and flashbacks to Touma’s past before he lost his memories.


In this novel PastTouma and PastMisaki are chased by Deadlock a group of Level 0’s that hate Misaki and Level 5. Since there level 0’s Touma shouldn’t be getting any boost from IB.


Touma is skilled enough to help Misaki run away despite the speed the deadlock member is moving.

Let it be known that Misaki is canonically very unathletic.




And deadlock guy has a rocket launcher.


And there helmets block Misaki’s ability.

Despite this Touma is able to stop him.

Then they get surrounded by more Deadlock members.

Explanation on Deadlock and the Queen Diver suits.

Despite being surrounded Touma and Misaki were able to escape.

And start jumping from rooftop to rooftop. It’s only because of Misaki’s unathleticism that Touma and her was caught.

Touma and Misaki were surrounded by more than 30 deadlock members.

All the Deadlock members have pile bunkers and willing to kill themselves just to kill Misaki.


Touma however literally charges at Deadlock while having like 30 piles bunkers pointed at him.

And he won.
The current Shokuhou Misaki let out a small breath.

“Sigh.”

That ended it all.

Since she and Kamijou Touma lived to this day, it went without saying who had won that fight against the student group named Deadlock.

There’s also the Biohacker story where PastTouma fights assassins and genetically modified animals.

Edit: Hell read my thread. https://onelastforum.com/threads/to...s-discussion-analysis-thread.1410/#post-62686

First volume alone has multiple supersonic reaction feats for Touma and has possibly ftl feats for him depending on if you believe Misaka’s lightning is lightspeed or lightspeed dragon breath.
I asked someone to Calc Dragon Breath’s speed in the Calc thread but no one did, so imma just gonna go with lightspeed cause it cut down a satellite in space and is compared to a laser and light.
 
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Irradiance

Slightly Above Average
I mean, I'm quoting new information because I didn't know the information were relevant before. Not knowing what the standards are I wouldn't even have included them in a respect thread lol

Honestly, can I petition that some "senior member" or whatever writes down what the exact definitions for "universe", "multiverse", "megaverse" etc. are and what the criteria for reaching universal, universal+, multiversal, multiversal+ etc. level of power are? Some of that is on the OBD wiki but who knows if that is up to date and that kind of shit should really be publicly documented somewhere. It sucks to debate the terms without knowing what the fuck we take them to mean exactly.
 
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Rev97

Illustrious
Screw it, I swore off this website but this threads been great to watch. Especially thinking back to my now deleted Respect Thread where I was both incredibly simple in the explanation and pretty conservative yet still it became a shitshow off nothing, unsurprisingly by some of the people that requested it no less.

But to add on to what’s now being argued, which is that the world of Index is blatantly far bigger and much more than a single universe even with what we know today, you’ve got the countless Phases. The number of which vary from either billions to an infinite amount depending on the scan you use.

The Phase of Hidden World of the Magic Gods alone proves this. It’s infinite in scope to where even the slightest gaps of go on infinitely. Worth mentioning Crowley destroyed this Phase too.

World varies in context as mentioned and notably, World in some cases refers to something more than universe based on the sequential order in this quote:

The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about.

You also got a spell of Crowley that sends Coronzon in the space between Phases

“This is not thy place, but I forbid thee to depart!! I shall now intentionally enact a failed exorcism. Great Demon Coronzon, return to thy rightful world while thy power is torn into the almighty number of 11!!”

Magician Aleister Crowley really did seem to be coughing up blood as she yelled the words.
If you thought of a summoning circle like a warp gate from cheap science fiction, then what would happen if you threw someone into a malfunctioning gate and entered the coordinates using a staticky signal? The power to forcibly send her back between phases would slice Coronzon apart like a wire through a hardboiled egg.

“Oh!”

Fearsome sparks exploded out.

And not figuratively. An orange light really did scatter all around her.

“Oooooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!???”

It was a lot like pushing a human body through a noodle maker. Coronzon’s silhouette vanished into the bright light as her entire body was torn apart and forced into a total of eleven gates.

That Great Demon never should have succumbed to human magic, but she cried out in agony as she was torn to pieces. It was not that this attack held a dreadful amount of power. This only worked because she had been reduced to a level where normal magic could kill her.

There’s also Curtana Second that cuts through the universe into other dimensions and worlds, these being Phases as the pure world is used as an example

That sword was an extreme spiritual item that fully unified the three factions and four
regions of the United Kingdom and that could draw on a portion of Archangel Michael's
power while on UK land.

If a qualified user released that power even for a moment, a swing of the sword would sever all dimensions at once and giant ruined materials would be created along the line of the slash.

Yes, all dimensions.

Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase…for example, Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom.

Could the cosmology in this series be explained better? Could it be less convoluted? Sure, but it’s pretty easy to follow if you read the series. It’s not rocket science like some here are treating it.
 
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Masterblack06

Man of Atom
Moderator
Im going to make a meta thread specifically for this purpose so that we can nail down whats what and future proof the whole thing for the future.

Too late now dawg. We moving on now