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OBD Convo #9: The Sith Never Die

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OtherGalaxy

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Dung Eater is such a weird character

He's basically obsessed with people born cursed and is basically Syndrome from Incredibles "if everyone is cursed no-one will be"

Except he was never cursed so it doesn't even make sense why he's that way and why his chosen solution would be to make things worse for everyone
 

CrossTheHorizon

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Dung Eater is such a weird character

He's basically obsessed with people born cursed and is basically Syndrome from Incredibles "if everyone is cursed no-one will be"

Except he was never cursed so it doesn't even make sense why he's that way and why his chosen solution would be to make things worse for everyone

I'm pretty sure the answer to all that is "he's fucking insane" and his entire existence is so ludicrous I refuse to end my run in any other way.
 

Atem

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Everyone who talks about ths Empryeans says this. There is never once anywhere an indication that the Empryeans are anything but the potential successors, and it's only those three ever called it.
Literally not the case, and Ranni was explicitly just a demigod and yet was one of the successors. Who had the biggest case of being one since she had Blaidd, and so far we have seen nothing to indicate that for Miquella or Malenia.
Not even remotely how this is shaping up :catskully
It is exactly how it is shaping up. Stop letting the ice pussy blind you to the facts. :skully
Yes it was. Ranni explicitly killed herself with the rune, it had nothing to do with Malekith. He got the Rune from the Gloam Eyed Goddess, who Marika had him kill as his only task.
Ranni lied. The Dusk Eyed Goddess is her, and that's how she actually died. Maliketh never retrieved it. He sealed the black sword after Ranni stole it, and that's how Destined Death was taken care of. In the lore for the Godskin Apostle it's even noted that they drew their power from the Black Blade, and that they lost it when the Black Blade was sealed.

Word-for-word:

6Cj07z2.png


The Godskin apostles never had anything to do with Ranni in the first place, of course her death didn't effect them. There literally isnt a single thing connecting them.
The Godskin Apostles never had anything to do with Fia. We never see them interact so much as once in the game. Meanwhile, we know that an Empyrean chosen by the fingers led the Godskin Apostles. Ranni is the only person it could be. The Godskin Apostles are most likely connected to the Black Knives. Since the same fragment they used was also used by the Black Knives for their daggers. It is clear it's the same fragment too. Since what Maliketh explicitly sealed after that fiasco was his black blade.
What? The Godskin apostles literally drew their power from the Destined Death, which is what Those who Live in Death serve.
Which does not in any capacity prove that they're part of the same organization. Those Who Live in Death are the undead, and people who want to bring about the Age of Duskborn. It's like saying protestants and hebrews are the same because they both believe in god.
And the rune was taken by Malekith from the Gloam Eyed Goddess as his only task, which is when he killed her. And Malekith never recovered the stolen portion because you can literally pick it up yourself later.
Maliketh never recovered it from the Godskin Apostles either, and they still have access to their black flames. All he did was seal the black blade. Even in the description for the Godskin Apostle Set this is made clear.
You're ignoring Malekiths own taking of the Rune from the Gloam Eyed Goddess.
He never actually took back the fragment that was stolen by Ranni, and only sealed the black blade after this.

Note the above.
So? They were still Empryeans.
According to the person who assassinated Godwyn, and who is known for her deceit.
Gowry isn't the only source, Ranni herself and the in-game items all make it explicit that there are only three Empryeans and it's the three of them.
Ranni isn't a trustworthy source just like Gowry, and as I have just proven? The Godskin Apostles came about as a result of said theft of this fragment of the Death Rune. The same theft that Ranni is responsible for, and as a result of the Godskin Apostles? Maliketh sealed the black blade away. He didn't take the whole Rune of Death from them. He already had it, and they used the stolen fragment of the Death Rune to create their black flames.
Which is why I said "the three of them being Empryeans comes from Ranni's quest, not Gowry".
Who is just as an untrusworthy as Gowry, and who is explicity lying as we know Maliketh killed her. That, or she is beating around the bush with half-truths and omitting the fact Godwyn was also an Empyrean. And the person she actually killed with the Rune of Death via the Black Knife assassins was him.
Eh, fair enough. Not how I read his statement but irrelevant because we have....literally everything else about the Empryeans.
Everything you had came from a source that is almost certainly lying like Gowry, or purposely omitting information about it.
Again, this is explicitly and directly contradicted by literally every reference to the purpose of the Empryeans. From Gowry, from Ranni, and from the in-game items. There are only three, and it's those three.
Gowry literally claims the scarlet rot is the actual source of true Empyreanhood, and that Malenia was the only one who fell under that designation. Completely untrustworthy, and even tries to snuff Millicent when she challenges his plot.
Miquella pretty clearly didnt want anything to do with Mohg, so it wouldn't make much sense for him to have manufactured an Old One out of whole cloth just to mess with him.
The only Outer God we know for sure exists is the Frenzied Flame. Which is actually what his needle works properly against. In the case of Millicent it was turning her into a god like Malenia, and that's why she removed it in the first place. In the case of people who are not under the influence of an Outer God? It just straight up transforms them into a god.
Maybe the title is being dramatic :zaru
Nope, the descriptor even makes it clear they transform into a god and she uses the attack a bunch of times during the fight afterwards. Regardless she hit past the third one.
YOU CANNOT ESCAPE THE CURSED BLESSING
Dung Eater is literally trash tier. Gold Mask or go home.
Again, you can literally go pick up that piece of the death rune yourself. Ranni killed herself and then lost the rune in the process, she had nothing to do with the Black Knives.
She had everything to do with the Godskin Apostles and the Black Knives. Who both used the same fragment of that Rune of Death, before Maliketh sealed his black blade away because of that.
Malekith never recovered the rune after the theft, it's still out there.
The part you're missing is that this is the same Rune of Death used by the Godskin Apostles, and that incident caused Maliketh to seal his black blade away. Which already had the Rune of Death before. Which is counter to your notion that they stole it directly from the Elden Ring somehow.
 

OtherGalaxy

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I mean technically due to the rules elden ring is one of the verses that can't be used in a debate precisely because of how it's lore is. The same with all games like it like destiny and the other soulsborne games
:CascaSigh:
nah
it's vague so you obviously can't use theorizing on feats, but there are plenty of concrete feats to use and Chaostheory in particular pioneered using Souls in debates to begin with

Elden Ring is much more straightforward with feats because we straight up see shit like Radahn holding back constellations play out on screen, a lot less guesswork involved than with dark souls
 

Atem

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nah
it's vague so you obviously can't use theorizing on feats, but there are plenty of concrete feats to use and Chaostheory in particular pioneered using Souls in debates to begin with

Elden Ring is much more straightforward with feats because we straight up see shit like Radahn holding back constellations play out on screen, a lot less guesswork involved than with dark souls
Basically this. There are lot of things that are left a mystery, but other things are most certainly not. It's explicit throughout the game that the Radahn back handed those constellations with gravity magic.
 

Atem

King of Games
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@CrossTheHorizon

Miquella's Needle was even made for Malenia's sake, but it failed to work because his assumption that the scarlet rot was coming from an Outer God was wrong. It instead accelerated the process of her becoming a full god. Which is why Malenia removed and broke the needle, and handed it to someone for safe keeping. Which you retrieve, and have Gowry repair for Millicent. Who also has the scarlet rot, and who is likely one of Malenia's bastards. Which when used on her was also slowly turning her into a full god. Which is why she removed it just like her mother did.
 

OtherGalaxy

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Basically this. There are lot of things that are left a mystery, but other things are most certainly not. It's explicit throughout the game that the Radahn back handed those constellations with gravity magic.
yeah and the spell where Radahn realized he was ready to fight stars is even called "collapsing star" so you can't really use the "they're actually meteors" argument either.
 

OtherGalaxy

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There's even some extra fluff too. It was specifically this spell that let him challenge the stars.

lstHDaJ.png
yep this is the one I was referring to


the only arguments I can think of as to why they wouldn't be real stars are that Astel is called both a star and a falling star, the only time the two are conflated...but it's also a living being so I don't know that the same rules would even apply. And maybe the star the Elden Beast arrived in, but like the Glintstone Sorceries never conflate stars and "falling stars" to be the same, so I can't see Iji's remark about constellations being a reference to asteroids of "meteor sized stars" as I saw SB put it
 

Atem

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@CrossTheHorizon

If I were to even humor Ranni's claim that only three Empyreans exist? It would once again prove my point. Since the Godskin Apostles came about in the same time-frame as when the Black Blade had a fragment of it stolen, and that's where they even got their black flames to begin with. There are only two Empyreans that are women, and it definitely wasn't Malenia since she was still alive.

Who else could this Empyrean chosen by the fingers be? Literally no one. Definitely wasn't Marika since she wasn't a successor. She was already the vessel of the Elden Ring/Elden Beast.
 

CrossTheHorizon

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@CrossTheHorizon

If I were to even humor Ranni's claim that only three Empyreans exist? It would once again prove my point. Since the Godskin Apostles came about in the same time-frame as when the Black Blade had a fragment of it stolen, and that's where they even got their black flames to begin with. There are only two Empyreans that are women, and it definitely wasn't Malenia since she was still alive.

Who else could this Empyrean chosen by the fingers be? Literally no one. Definitely wasn't Marika since she wasn't a successor. She was already the vessel of the Elden Ring/Elden Beast.

The Godskin apostles were around before that. They served the Gloam Eyed Goddess, the one Malekith killed and took the rune from in the first place, as his first and only task from his Empryean Marika. Obviously well before Ranni or the others existed.

The fact that Ranni coexisted with Malenia and Miquella implies Marika could have easily had siblings or the like who were also Empryeans, who she struck down to become head of the Golden Order.
 

Atem

King of Games
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The Godskin apostles were around before that. They served the Gloam Eyed Goddess, the one Malekith killed and took the rune from in the first place, as his first and only task from his Empryean Marika. Obviously well before Ranni or the others existed.
I already proved this wrong, the game itself makes it clear that they still have access to the black flames when we fight them, they explicitly drew their power from the Black Blade, and Maliketh sealed his weapon with his flesh after this. The Rune of Death was already in his sword by the time he fought them, and what they used was a fragment of it.
The fact that Ranni coexisted with Malenia and Miquella implies Marika could have easily had siblings or the like who were also Empryeans, who she struck down to become head of the Golden Order.
The only sibling Marika had was Maliketh, and even then as a half-sibling. There were no others except Radagon which was actually Marika. Either in a disguise, or as literally a split part of her being because magic. And Maliketh wasn't a successor.
 
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