Tolkien Legendarium feats & lore discussion thread (Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, The Silmarillian)

[Stocking Anarchy]

From Morgoth's Ring (which was again, edited by Christopher Tolkien from his fathers unfinished texts), some among the Elves believe that there will be a New Arda rebuilt from the beginning without Malice, which the Elves will partake of from the beginning. It goes on to say that the elves believe that all of creation exists inside Ea and that they do not believe in "contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds" (seperate worlds existing at the same time; this being said, they don't deny the existence of other worlds, they simply don't believe in them). They say these worlds are unknowable, and if there are a rare intersections, they are still only provinces of the one Ea.

In that region of Time and Place the Elves will dwell as their home, but not be confined to it. But no blessed spirits from what is still to us the future can intrude into our own periods of Time. For to contemplate the Tale of Arda the Blessed must (in spirit or whole being) leave the Time of Arda. But others use another analogy, saying that there will indeed be a New Arda, rebuilt from the beginning without Malice, and that the Elves will take part in this from the beginning. It will be in Ea, say they - for they hold that all Creation of any sort must be in Ea, proceeding from Eru in the same way, and therefore being of the same Order. They do not believe in contemporaneous non-contiguous worlds except as an amusing fantasy of the mind. They are (say they) either altogether unknowable, even as to whether they are or are not, or else if there are any intersections (however rare) they are only provinces of one Ea.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

The corruption of Melkor touches all the matter of Arda, if not all the matter of the entirety of Ea.

Some indeed of the Eldar doubt that any special grace or blessing was accorded to them, other than admittance to Aman. For they hold that the failure of their hroar to endure in vitality unwearied as long as their fear - a process which was not observed until the later ages - is due to the Marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hroa) of Arda, if not indeed of all Ea.

Indeed, Morgoth has left Arda to venture forth to other regions of Ea. However, upon seeing what the other Valar did with the Kingdom of Arda he grew jealous, and returned, taking physical form as a monstrous being the size of a mountain.

And there was strife between Melkor and the other Valar; and for that time Melkor withdrew and departed to other regions and did there what he would; but he did not put the desire of the Kingdom of Arda from his heart...Then Melkor saw what was done, and that the Valar walked on Earth as powers visible, clad in the raiment of the World, and were lovely and glorious to see...His envy grew then the greater within him; and he also took visible form, but because of his mood and the malice that burned in him that form was dark and terrible. And he descended upon Arda in power and majesty greater than any of the other Valar, as a mountain that wades in the sea and has its head above the clouds and is clad in ice and crowned with smoke and fire...

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

To iterate on the above, if there are other solar systems like Arda in Eä that were inhabited, it would not invalidate the Elvish beief that Arda is the dramatic centre of the cosmos (it was here that the Valar had their war). So if there are other solar systems (or indeed other universes) within Ea that contain life, it doesn't matter to the Elves, as Arda is the main focus of Ea.

It is certainly the case with the Elvish traditions that the principal part of Arda was the Earth (Imbar 'The Habitation'), as the scene of the Drama of the war of the Valar and the Children of Eru with Melkor: so that loosely used Arda often seems to mean the Earth: and that from this point of view the function of the Solar System was to make possible the existence of Imbar.

With regard to the relation of Arda to Eä, the assertion that the principal demiurgic Ainur (the Valar), including the original greatest of all, Melkor, had taken up their residence in Arda, ever since its establishment, also implies that however minute Arda was dramatically the chief point in Eä.

These views are not mathematical or astronomical, or even biological, and so cannot be held necessarily to conflict with the theories of our physical sciences. We cannot say that there 'must' be elsewhere in Eä other solar systems 'like' Arda, still less that if there are they or any one of them must contain a parallel to Imbar. We cannot even say that these things are mathematically very 'likely'. But even if the presence elsewhere in Eä of biological 'life' was demonstrable, it would not invalidate the Elvish view that Arda (at least while it endures) is the dramatic centre. The demonstration that there existed elsewhere Incarnates, parallel to the Children of Eru, would of course modify the picture, though not wholly invalidate it. The Elvish answer would probably be: 'Well, that is another Tale. It is not our Tale. Eru can no doubt bring to pass more than one. Not everything is adumbrated in the Ainulindalë; or the Ainulindalë may have a wider reference than we knew: other dramas like in kind if different in process and result, may have gone on in Eä, or may yet go on.' But they would certainly add: But they are not going on now. The drama of Arda is the present concern of Eä.' Actually It is plainly the view of the Elvish tradition that the Drama of Arda is unique. We cannot at present assert that this is untrue.

Arda refers not only to the planet, but the entire Solar System (published in Morgoth's Ring, but originally from Commentary on the Athrabeth).

Physically Arda was what we should call the Solar System. Presumably the Eldar could have had as much and as accurate information concerning this, its structure, origin, and its relation to the rest of Ea as they could comprehend.

Although these myths come from the Elves (and the Men who received lore from the Elves) and their myths and legends, there's nothing in them that seriously conflicts with the present day human notions of the Solar System and its size and position relative to the Universe.

The traditions here referred to have come down from the Eldar of the First Age, through Elves who never were directly acquainted with the Valar, and through Men who received 'lore' from the Elves, but who had myths and cosmogonic legends, and astronomical guesses, of their own. There is, however, nothing in them that seriously conflicts with present human notions of the Solar System, and its size and position relative to the Universe.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

From Morgoth's Ring (which once again, was compiled by Christopher Tolkien), Eru is infinitely greater than Ea, and exists within all of Ea and beyond all of Ea. Finrod wonders how this is the case, and compares it to a poet entering his own story or a designer entering his own picture, and wonders how he could do this without shattering all of Arda, if not all of Ea.

'But still this passes my understanding,' said Finrod. For how could Eru enter into the thing that He has made, and than which He is infinitely greater? Can the poet enter his story or the designer enter his picture?'

'He is already in it, and outside it,' said Saelon, 'though not in the same mode.'

'Yea verily,' said Finrod, 'and so is Eru in that mode / sense in Arda. But you speak of Eru entering into Arda, which is surelyanother matter. How could he do so, who is infinitely greater: would it not shatter Arda, or indeed Ea?'

'He could find a way, I doubt not,' said Saelon, 'though indeed I cannot conceive the way. But whatever you think, that is the GreatHope of Men. And I do not see - so to speak with humility - what else could be done; since Eru will surely not suffer Melkor to triumph and abandon His own work. But there is nothing morepowerful that is conceivable than Melkor, save Eru only. Therefore Eru, if he will not relinquish his work to Melkor, who is......, Eru must come in to conquer him.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

The Nazgul cannot see in the world of light, but the shapes of those in the Seen World leave shadows in their mind (which the sun of day destroys, thus why they come out at night or when it's overcast), and in the dark they can see many things hidden to normal folk. Normal folk can also feel their presence, as the presence of a wraith troubles the heart. And of course, they are drawn by the One Ring.

‘I was too careless on the hill-top,’ answered Strider. ‘I was very anxious to find some sign of Gandalf; but it was a mistake for three of us to go up and stand there so long. For the black horses can see, and the Riders can use men and other creatures as spies, as we found at Bree. They themselves do not see the world of light as we do, but our shapes cast shadows in their minds, which only the noon sun destroys; and in the dark they perceive many signs and forms that are hidden from us: then they are most to be feared. And at all times they smell the blood of living things, desiring and hating it. Senses, too, there are other than sight or smell. We can feel their presence– it troubled our hearts, as soon as we came here, and before we saw them; they feel ours more keenly. Also,’ he added, and his voice sank to a whisper, ‘the Ring draws them.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

The One Ring has no effect on Tom Bombadil (though the Ring itself seems to grow to accomodate for Toms larger fingers). He even does some party tricks with it!

‘Show me the precious Ring!’ he said suddenly in the midst of the story: and Frodo, to his own astonishment, drew out the chain from his pocket, and unfastening the Ring handed it at once to Tom.
It seemed to grow larger as it lay for a moment on his big brown-skinned hand. Then suddenly he put it to his eye and laughed. For in the House of Tom Bombadil second the hobbits had a vision, both comical and alarming, of his bright blue eye gleaming through a circle of gold. Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight. For a moment the hobbits noticed nothing strange about this. Then they gasped. There was no sign of Tom disappearing!
Tom laughed again, and then he spun the Ring in the air – and it vanished with a flash. Frodo gave a cry – and Tom leaned forward and handed it back to him with a smile.

Tom Bombadil can see Frodo even when he has the Ring on.

‘Hey there!’ cried Tom, glancing towards him with a most seeing look in his shining eyes. ‘Hey! Come Frodo, there! Where be you a-going? Old Tom Bombadil’s not as blind as that yet. Take off your golden ring! Your hand’s more fair without it. Come back! Leave your game and sit down beside me! We must talk a while more, and think about the morning. Tom must teach the right road, and keep your feet from wandering.’

 

[OrlandoSky]

What sources aside from the Books are considered official canon? Like is the Atlas of Middle-Earth a good source to go by when calcing or trying to quantify feats since it actually goes into detail about the size and details about various places on Middle Earth or is it disregarded because Tolkien himself wasn't alive to give it an official seal of approval?

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

What sources aside from the Books are considered official canon? Like is the Atlas of Middle-Earth a good source to go by when calcing or trying to quantify feats since it actually goes into detail about the size and details about various places on Middle Earth or is it disregarded because Tolkien himself wasn't alive to give it an official seal of approval?

I'm not an expert on Tolkien (yet), but here are my thoughts...

Outside the books (The Hobbit, Lord of the Rings, The Silmarilian), there's also letters that Tolkien wrote to others describing events, inner workings and going over story points (and so forth) to others. Tolkien also had a few unfinished works, which his son Christopher Tolkien published/compiled, and in some cases finished IIRC. A few of these are collections of his fathers unfinished works, though other stuff I think Chris edited/finished. Usually I just note that Christopher Tolkien compiled/edited/finished said work posthumously just in case.

Naturally, Peter Jackson's movies, MERP and a bunch of video games are their own continuities.

Middle-earth canon - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Canon

Canon is a term to refer to consistent "absolute truth" in literature, religion and fiction, in contrast to apocryphal tales of "lesser" significance and value....

tolkiengateway.net

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

The Music of Eru and the Music of Melkor created a dissonance, and things created by neither Eru nor Melkor appeared, including evil things (to repeat again Morgoth's Ring was compiled by Christopher Tolkien of several of his father's works). This may or may not be the origin of the Nameless Things who live below the mountains and in the foundations of the earth.

Evil is fissiparous. But itself barren. Melkor could not 'beget', or have any spouse (though he attempted to ravish Arien, this was to destroy and 'distain' her, not to beget fiery offspring). Out of the discords of the Music - se. not directly out of either of the themes, Eru's or Melkor's, but of their dissonance with regard one to another - evil things appeared in Arda, which did not descend from any direct plan or vision of Melkor: they were not 'his children'; and therefore, since all evil hates, hated him too. The progeniture of things was corrupted. Hence Orcs? Part of the Elf-Man idea gone wrong. Though as for Orcs, the Eldar believed Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing Men(and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

Among the Nameless Things are fish who's eyes have grown bigger and bigger to see in the darkness, and things even slimier than fish. Some of these creatures came in from outside, while others lived in the depths long before the goblins.

“So it is a pool or a lake, and not an underground river,” he thought. Still he did not dare to wade out into the darkness. He could not swim; and he thought, too, of nasty slimy things, with big bulging blind eyes, wriggling in the water.There are strange things living in the pools and lakes in the hearts of mountains: fish whose fathers swam in, goodness only knows how many years ago, and never swam out again, while their eyes grew bigger and bigger and bigger from trying to see in the blackness; also there are other things more slimy than fish. Even in the tunnels and caves the goblins have made for themselves there are other things living unbeknown to them that have sneaked in from outside to lie up in the dark. Some of these caves, too, go back in their beginnings to ages before the goblins, who only widened them and joined them up with passages, and the original owners are still there in odd corners, slinking and nosing about.

 

[Lord Melkor]

Awesome thread @Stocking Anarchy ! I have been Tolkien fan since long ago, hence my username.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

Were-wyrms are creatures which are said to live East of East in the Last Desert.

Tell me what you want done, and I will try it, if I have to walk from here to the East of East and fight the wild Were-worms in the Last Desert. I had a great-great-great-grand-uncle once, Bullroarer Took, and—”

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

The Mirror of Galadriel reveals the past, present and possible futures.

‘Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,’ she answered,‘and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell. Do you wish to look?’

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

Frodo says that if Sam tells about the conversation he overheard between him and Gandalf then Gandalf should turn him into a toad and throw him into a garden full of grass snakes, to which Gandalf replies that Sam will accompany Frodo on his journey instead.

‘It can’t be helped, Sam,’ said Frodo sadly. He had suddenlyrealized that flying from the Shire would mean more painful partingsthan merely saying farewell to the familiar comforts of Bag End. ‘Ishall have to go. But’ – and here he looked hard at Sam – ‘if you really care about me, you will keep that dead secret. See? If you don’t, if you even breathe a word of what you’ve heard here, then I hope Gandalf will turn you into a spotted toad and fill the garden full of grass-snakes.’
Sam fell on his knees, trembling. ‘Get up, Sam!’ said Gandalf. ‘I have thought of something better than that. Something to shut your mouth, and punish you properly for listening. You shall go away with Mr. Frodo!’

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

Lothlorien is described as being a place left over from the Elder Days, where ancient things still live on in the waking world, and where no shadow lies.

As soon as he set foot upon the far bank of Silverlode a strange feeling had come upon him, and it deepened as he walked on into the Naith: it seemed to him that he had stepped over a bridge of time into a corner of the Elder Days, and was now walking in a world that was no more. In Rivendell there was memory of ancient things; in Lórien the ancient things still lived on in the waking world. Evil had been seen and heard there, sorrow had been known; the Elves feared and distrusted the world outside: wolves were howling on the wood's borders: but on the land of Lórien no shadow lay.

Frodo feels that Lorien is a timeless land that does not change or fade, and he would still walk there even after he passes away into the outer world.

They followed him as he stepped lightly up the grass-clad slopes. Though he walked and breathed, and about him living leaves and flowers were stirred by the same cool wind as fanned his face, Frodo felt that he was in a timeless land that did not fade or change or fall into forgetfulness. When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlo´rien.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

Valinor and Eressëa were taken by Eru and placed into the realm of hidden things (likely the Unseen World), removing them beyond the reach of Men forever.

But the land of Aman and Eressëa of the Eldar were taken away and removed beyond the reach of Men for ever. And Andor, the Land of Gift, Númenor of the Kings, Elenna of the Star of Eärendil, was utterly destroyed. For it was nigh to the east of the great rift, and its foundations were overturned, and it fell and went down into darkness, and is no more. And there is not now upon Earth any place abiding where the memory of a time without evil is preserved. For Ilúvatar cast back the Great Seas west of Middle-earth, and the Empty Lands east of it, and new lands and new seas were made; and the world was diminished, for Valinor and Eressëa were taken from it into the realm of hidden things.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

Various calcs for Tolkien's mythos by various individuals.

Calc Storage - March of the Balrogs (The Silmarillion)

Possibly one of the few noteworthy speed feats presented throughout the annals of the Tolkeinverse, and one oft-referenced as a counter to the claims of tardiness amongst the high-tiers which stalk the lands of Arda. Then Morgoth sent forth a...

www.fanverse.org

Calc Storage - Crying in Lammoth (The Silmarillion)

Then Morgoth sent forth a terrible cry, that echoed in the mountains. Therefore that region was called Lammoth; for the echoes of his voice dwelt there ever after, so that any who cried aloud in that land awoke them, and all the waste between the...

www.fanverse.org

Calc Storage - Beleriand goes Bye-Bye (The Silmarillion)

The other major feat brought up in regards to the War of Wrath, the single greatest military campaign in Middle-earth's history, alongside the "crushes puny mountains" Ancalagon feat. Thus, an end was made of the power of Angband in the North...

www.fanverse.org

Lord of the Rings feat - Sauron's magical power

May as well try this out Anywho, Sauron is capable of holding up Barad-dur casually through sheer power :lbj Final Tally: Mass of Barad-dur: 12,502,552,051,500 kg Sauron's magical power = 43.926 megatons

www.fanverse.org

Calc Storage - Smaug Being Magnificent (The Hobbit)

In light of the upcoming release of the much-awaited first film of Peter Jackson's adaption trilogy of "The Hobbit", a calc based on the original novel seems only fitting to be performed at this time. Centered on the Big Bad of the book, the...

www.fanverse.org

Calc Storage - The Dark Dragon Comes Crashing Down (The Silmarillion)

First calc of mine to deal directly with literature, yay~! Anyway, we all know which dragon I'm referring to in my title, so no formal introduction should be necessary for Mr. Ancalagon the Black. Instead, we'll jump straight into the text...

www.fanverse.org

Calc Requests, Part 23

From my Calc Request Thread. 1. Taskmaster dodges bullet (Marvel Comics, requested by Mr. Black Leg) http://i.imgur.com/3rwHJQJ.jpg I haven't actually read this particular comic, so I might be getting something wrong here. Please point...

www.fanverse.org

Calc Storage - Middle-earth Dogfight (The Silmarillion)

As I mentioned in the preceding blog on Morgoth's screaming, I would attempt a lower-scale quake calc to establish a better precedent on lower-tier fighters in the Tolkienverse. So without further adieu: There befell the the battle of Huan...

www.fanverse.org

Calc Storage - Melkor: Fire and Ice (The Silmarillion)

1# - Fire We certainly start off big, with Melkor's collapse of the Twin Lamps of Illuin and Ormal, which were the first structures devised by the Valar to cast light across the entire planet of Arda/Earth (succeeded by the Twin Trees...

www.fanverse.org

I've yet to make any calcs myself (as of posting this), but should I I'll post them here.

tolkien_legendarium

onelastforum.com

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

The lands of Valinor and Eressëa were removed from the physical world, never to retuern. Should a ship of the Eldar (specifically made and hallowed for such a journey) sail out (which it can only do after sunset), someone watching it go would note it doesn't move with the curvature of the Earth, but instead keeps sailing straight until it vanishes, as it follows the straight road to the True West (as the world once was before it was made round).

The ‘immortals’ who were permitted to leave Middle-earth and seek Aman — the undying lands of Valinor and Eressëa, an island assigned to the Eldar — set sail in ships specially made and hallowed for this voyage, and steered due West towards the ancient site of these lands. They only set out after sundown; but if any keen-eyed observer from that shore had watched one of these ships he might have seen that it never became hull-down but dwindled only by distance until it vanished in the twilight: it followed the straight road to the true West and not the bent road of the earth’s surface. As it vanished it left the physical world. There was no return. The Elves who took this road and those few ‘mortals’ who by special grace went with them, had abandoned the ‘History of the world’ and could play no further part in it.

Ainur such as the Valar and Maiar need no transport to Valinor, unless they remain incarnate for a time, in which case they return if commanded or if they're allowed to.

The angelic immortals (incarnate only at their own will), the Valar or regents under God, and others of the same order but less power and majesty (such as Olórin = Gandalf) needed no transport, unless they for a time remained incarnate, and they could, if allowed or commanded, return.

Mortals who go to Aman will not be made immortal (as not even the Valar posses that power or have the right), but instead will dwell in peace and healing, until they pass away to destinations unknown to the Elves.

As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time — whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer ‘immortality’ upon them. Their sojourn was a ‘purgatory’, but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

The general idea of these events are referred to in Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion.

This general idea lies behind the events of The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, but it is not put forward as geologically or astronomically ‘true’; except that some special physical catastrophe is supposed to lie behind the legends and marked the first stage in the succession of Men to dominion of the world. But the legends are mainly of ‘Mannish’ origin blended with those of the Sindar (Gray-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

The Valar as known by the Elder are nothing compared to the true power and beauty of the Valar, which goes back into regions and ages far beyond our thought.

These are the names of the Valar and the Valier, and here is told in brief their likenesses, such as the Eldar beheld them in Aman. But fair and noble as were the forms in which they were manifest to the Children of Ilúvatar, they were buta veil upon their beauty and their power. And if little is here said of all that the Eldar once knew, that is as nothing compared with their true being, which goes back into regions and ages far beyond our thought. Among them Nine were of chief power and reverence; but one is removed from their number, and Eight remain, the Aratar, the High Ones of Arda: Manwë and Varda, Ulmo, Yavanna and Aulë, Mandos, Nienna, and Oromë. Though Manwë is their King and holds their allegiance under Eru, in majesty they are peers, surpassing beyond compare all others, whether of the Valar and the Maiar, or of any other order that Ilúvatar has sent into Eä.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

The Watcher in the Water is an unknown water-dwelling monster that watches the Western Gate to the Mines of Moria. It has at least 21 tentacles, each with finger-like appendages on the end.

Out from the water a long sinuous tentacle had crawled; it was pale-green and luminous and wet. Its fingered end had hold of Frodo’s foot, and was dragging him into the water. Sam on his knees was now slashing at it with a knife.
The arm let go of Frodo, and Sam pulled him away, crying out for help. Twenty other arms came rippling out. The dark water boiled, and there was a hideous stench.

The Watcher in the Water slams the doors to the Mines of Moria shut with "horrible strength" (the doors being made of stone and carved out of the cliff-face).

They were just in time. Sam and Frodo were only a few steps up, and Gandalf had just begun to climb, when the groping tentacles writhed across the narrow shore and fingered the cliff-wall and the doors. One came wriggling over the threshold, glistening in the starlight. Gandalf turned and paused. If he was considering what word would close the gate again from within, there was no need. Many coiling arms seized the doors on either side, and with horrible strength, swung them round. With a shattering echo they slammed, and all light was lost. A noise of rending and crashing came dully through the ponderous stone.

Gandalf tries to open the door, but is unable to, but even as he fails he shakes the stone and causes the stairs the Fellowship is standing on to tremble. He says's it's likely that the creature bared the way with boulders and by tearing down the two trees in front of the gate.

They heard Gandalf go back down the steps and thrust his staff against the doors. There was a quiver in the stone and the stairs trembled, but the doors did not open.
‘Well, well!’ said the wizard. ‘The passage is blocked behind us now, and there is only one way out – on the other side of the mountains. I fear from the sounds that boulders have been piled up, and the trees uprooted and thrown across the gate. I am sorry; for the trees were beautiful, and had stood so long.'

Gandalf contemplates that the creature was very likely attracted by the Ring (which is why it went for Frodo) and was driven out from under the deep waters beneath the mountains for this reason, and warns there are older and fouler things than orcs in the deep places of the world.

‘I do not know,’ answered Gandalf; ‘but the arms were all guided by one purpose. Something has crept, or has been driven out of dark waters under the mountains. There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world.’ He did not speak aloud his thought that whatever it was that dwelt in the lake, it had seized on Frodo first among all the Company.

The creature is named as the Watcher in the Water, and it had taken Oin.

...the pool is up to the wall at Westgate. The Watcher in the Water took Oin. We cannot get out. The end comes...