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Touma and his Interactions with other Attacks

Masterblack06

Masterblack06

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Alright this is a better place to have this argument. It wont just be Touma vs Kumogawa. Its gonna be how he and his power interacts with certain things.

To get a clear idea of what we are working with, Imma need @Paxton @Astaro and if he wants @Cryso Agori to simply break down IB. Strength, Weaknesses, The Strongest thing its worked on, What its failed to work on. And then I guess we can go from there.
 
Masterblack06 said:
Alright this is a better place to have this argument. It wont just be Touma vs Kumogawa. Its gonna be how he and his power interacts with certain things.

To get a clear idea of what we are working with, Imma need @Paxton @Astaro and if he wants @Cryso Agori to simply break down IB. Strength, Weaknesses, The Strongest thing its worked on, What its failed to work on. And then I guess we can go from there.
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Uh, aight sure.

Strongest thing it worked on was Othinus's Gungnir. Which itself is a can of worms cause of whether or not its universal/multiversal debates.

Thing is tho, is that in NT9 when Touma blocks Gungnir, it breaks his fingers. However later in the series NT22, Touma blocks Magick Flaming Sword, an attack that's equal to Gungnir, with no damage to his right hand, so it got stronger.

It's weaknesses are

1. attacks that happen inside the body/centralized effects, IB can't block magic within the body, first volume has him being unable to break the seal on Index simply by touching her because the seal was in her throat. In the second volume Izzard attacks touma by paralyzing his legs from the inside, Touma was able to negate it, but he had to touch his legs to do so. Touma also got memory wiped by Izzard too, he was only able to negate it by touching his head with IB.

Similarly, Misaki, an esper can use telepathy and mind control on Touma as long as he doesn't touch his head with his right hand.

2. Beam attacks/magic with an outside power source

Magic attacks that have a power source outside of IB's touch can come back or keep going even after being negated. For example Touma can block beam attacks but he can't fully negate the attack because IB only negates the magic touching his hand.

In the first volume he had trouble with Innocentius because while he could negate Innocentius, Innocentius was powered by runes all over the walls, too many for touma to negate, so even after being negated it simply came back, and it was coming back faster than IB could negate.

In the second volume, Izzard had placed a boundary within the Misawa Cram School, while Touma could partially negate the boundary where he touches it, as long as he didn't the negate power source the boundary would just regenerate.

There's also Magick Flaming Sword. But's its quite weird.

Despite being a magical attack, somehow, due to Coronzon having a body, Magick Flaming Sword wasn't considered supernatural and blew his hand off, but after Accelerator exorcised her from the body, as just a soul, Touma was able to negate Magick Flaming Sword.

It's some weird interaction that only applies to Magick Flaming Sword it seems.
 
Cryso Agori said:
Uh, aight sure.

Strongest thing it worked on was Othinus's Gungnir. Which itself is a can of worms cause of whether or not its universal/multiversal debates.

Thing is tho, is that in NT9 when Touma blocks Gungnir, it breaks his fingers. However later in the series NT22, Touma blocks Magick Flaming Sword, an attack that's equal to Gungnir, with no damage to his right hand, so it got stronger.

It's weaknesses are

1. attacks that happen inside the body/centralized effects, IB can't block magic within the body, first volume has him being unable to break the seal on Index simply by touching her because the seal was in her throat. In the second volume Izzard attacks touma by paralyzing his legs from the inside, Touma was able to negate it, but he had to touch his legs to do so. Touma also got memory wiped by Izzard too, he was only able to negate it by touching his head with IB.

Similarly, Misaki, an esper can use telepathy and mind control on Touma as long as he doesn't touch his head with his right hand.

2. Beam attacks/magic with an outside power source

Magic attacks that have a power source outside of IB's touch can come back or keep going even after being negated. For example Touma can block beam attacks but he can't fully negate the attack because IB only negates the magic touching his hand.

In the first volume he had trouble with Innocentius because while he could negate Innocentius, Innocentius was powered by runes all over the walls, too many for touma to negate, so even after being negated it simply came back, and it was coming back faster than IB could negate.

In the second volume, Izzard had placed a boundary within the Misawa Cram School, while Touma could partially negate the boundary where he touches it, as long as he didn't the negate power source the boundary would just regenerate.
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(It rivals it in purely terms of destructive power, and is stronger in other ways, but I digress)

Anyway, no he didn't.

Touma failed to negate Flaming;Sword and he only managed to do so after Coronzon was separated from her avatar, weakening her and her attacks.
 
Cryso Agori said:
before she was exorcised.

Iirc its power was still the same, only that it could be negated now she was just a soul.
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Yeah, because her having a vessel stabilizes her power and separating her from it weakens her.
 
Masterblack06 said:
Alright this is a better place to have this argument. It wont just be Touma vs Kumogawa. Its gonna be how he and his power interacts with certain things.

To get a clear idea of what we are working with, Imma need @Paxton @Astaro and if he wants @Cryso Agori to simply break down IB. Strength, Weaknesses, The Strongest thing its worked on, What its failed to work on. And then I guess we can go from there.
Click to expand...
@Darth Zion

You can intervene here if you like.
 
Are there any interactions it has with non magical things. Ive seen claims that IB can negate someones super strength because its not related to the pure world or some shit like that
 
Masterblack06 said:
Are there any interactions it has with non magical things. Ive seen claims that IB can negate someones super strength because its not related to the pure world or some shit like that
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I think I can explain that decently well.

It can't negate the physiology of characters like Saints, because they are considered "natural" to the blueprint that Imagine Breaker base its negation on (i.e. the Pure World of Toaru).

But if something is natural to another setting (even if it's not supernatural in nature by their definition, such as a normal fantasy race that doesn't exist in Toaru), it would actually nullify/negate them, and potentially kill them.

It sounds silly but hey, that's just the mechanics of how it works.
 
Masterblack06 said:
Are there any interactions it has with non magical things. Ive seen claims that IB can negate someones super strength because its not related to the pure world or some shit like that
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I find that shit to be completely absurd to be frank, especially to put it in a VS. debate. It's like stating Touma can negate Superman's biology and existence because he's an alien and should be able to because "Aliens don't exist in The Pure World" or some shit like that.
 
Masterblack06 said:
Are there any interactions it has with non magical things. Ive seen claims that IB can negate someones super strength because its not related to the pure world or some shit like that
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If its magical super strength based on mana or shit, yeah IB will negate it, but I think the example your using is about Saints, which no, Touma can't negate the super strength of Saint's because a Saint's strength is "natural" it doesn't come from mana or anything, rather its simply a product having a body similar to Jesus Christ.
 
If you mean stuff like mundane objects accelerated via supernatural means (like Misaka's railgun), he can negate those just fine.
 
Xhominid The Apex said:
I find that shit to be completely absurd to be frank, especially to put it in a VS. debate. It's like stating Touma can negate Superman's biology and existence because he's an alien and should be able to because "Aliens don't exist in The Pure World" or some shit like that.
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It's absurd but true.
 
Paxton said:
If you mean stuff like mundane objects accelerated via supernatural means (like Misaka's railgun), he can negate those just fine.
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So if superman would yeet a rock at his head, he would 100% just die since it isnt being launched through supernatural means

Paxton said:
I think I can explain that decently well.

It can't negate the physiology of characters like Saints, because they are considered "natural" to the blueprint that Imagine Breaker base its negation on (i.e. the Pure World of Toaru).

But if something is natural to another setting (even if it's not supernatural in nature by their definition, such as a normal fantasy race that doesn't exist in Toaru), it would actually nullify/negate them, and potentially kill them.

It sounds silly but hey, that's just the mechanics of how it works.
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It would only be able to negate them if can overcome their resistances though.

But yeah my question was more about Technology based stuff. Like Cyborg firing his Decibel Cannon
 
Masterblack06 said:
So if superman would yeet a rock at his head, he would 100% just die since it isnt being launched through supernatural means


It would only be able to negate them if can overcome their resistances though.

But yeah my question was more about Technology based stuff. Like Cyborg firing his Decibel Cannon
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Probably. Depends on if you view his strength (which comes from his physiology) as supernatural by Toaru standards.

I'd lean towards no (as in, he could not negate that with IB).

I'd also lean towards no for this.
 
Paxton said:
Probably. Depends on if you view his strength (which comes from his physiology) as supernatural by Toaru standards.
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To be honest if they did an examination of him in To Aru they would probably be able to tell that hes just naturally that strong relatively quickly.

Paxton said:
I'd lean towards no (as in, he could not negate that with IB).

I'd also lean towards no for this.
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Gotcha.

Man I should have made this thread a long time ago.
 
Xhominid The Apex said:
It still sounds stupid as shit to me even if it is true.
Makes me wonder how the fuck To Aru's Cosmology work if "The Pure World" somehow means just Earth and anyone and everyone born from it. Does it mean all life in the Universe started with Earth somehow?
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Something like that?

In terms of the order of "events" in the story, the emanation of Ein Sof's light created the Sephiroth/Qliphoth, the physical world (both the Pure World and the current main phase of the setting) remains at the very bottom, Coronzon was appointed as the guardian of the Abyss between the fourth "world" and the lower three worlds, humanity was created at some point, something (probably the dragon of revelation, but this is just theorycrafting) attacked the Sephiroth (which later required Jesus to atone at the cross to fix the sephirot, at least temporarily), etc.

Basically it's the Kabbalah with some creative liberties taken here and there.

But this is getting off-topic.
 
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Tbh im kinda getting tired of verses always going back to Ein Sof,/Sephiroth shit.

At first it was cool and neat, but now everyone and their mom is using it
 
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