TYPE-Moon/Nasuverse Feats/General Thread - People Die If They Are Killed Edition

Paxton said:

Could someone give me a run-down on the basic description of each of the Dead Apostle Ancestors?

I didn't want to ask this in the circus thread so as to not clog it up, but a certain someone off-site is trying to claim that the Nasu statement regarding Artoria standing a good chance against "those 27 Apostle Ancestors that overwhelm through material quantity and alienness would be a tough fight for them" refers to all of them and not just Nrvnsqr Chaos.

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To give you the best answer...
Nvrsqr is literally the main one who fits that description.
Some of the others are more esoteric being a living phenomena or is just a literal roaming Demonic Forest.

Outside of actual "material quality and alieness", it's literally just Primate Murder(or Beast IV Fou/Cath Pulag) or TYPE-Ort... whose literally in an entirely different league altogether(he's literally a DAA because it killed one, that's it).
Nobody else at all fits Nvrsqr's description Nasu gives out, not one.

Paxton said:

So how does the Moon Cell and Type Moon/Brunestud co-exist actually?
Or do they not and it's just different timeline stuff?

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They don't. Nasu explicitly states that they literally cannot co-exist in the same timeline and thus outside of Arcuied's one cameo appearance in Fate/Extra(but not CCC) which is still canon(like how Artoria is in Type Lumina despite Servants aren't a thing in Tsukihime's Timeline/Universes) neither exists.

He does have something that states similar that the White Titan, Sefar, appears differently than how she did outside of the Fate/Extra Timelines.

Vespa Crabro said:

Quixote absolutely giga chadded on constantine and made him look like a cuck

Fantastic that they did justice to one of my favorite heroes

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Yep. Even I was impressed with the little we got that shows just how good he is at retaining his character from the books. I remember people was disappointed in him at first until they got more confirmation too.

Oh yeah, you can trust @ChaosTheory123 's word as he was the one who primarily put Fate feats and otherwise on the map and actually dug through the series before I came here(All the stuff I pulled came from his calcs and his feats thread and pages).
So yeah, what he says primarily goes because he knows better.

And let's get started on the final 2 Lokapala(I will not go deep into either section unlike Lostbelt Nezha because just like her, they don't really show their abilities well outside of NPs)

First William Tell:


Historical depiction · Appearance:

William Tell (Wilhelm Tell in local Swiss German)
is a legendary character who lived at Uri, central Switzerland, in the late 13th century ~ early 14th century.
His name was popularized as a character appearing on a drama, but for the people of Switzerland,
he is accepted as a hero that symbolizes the nation building movement.

The region of Switzerland at that time was in a spot in which three provinces signed an alliance for their autonomous independence from the Habsburg family,
and created the base form of the later Swiss Federation.
In one of these provinces, Uri, lived an Austrian governor called Hermann Geßler.
He erected a pole on the central square and hung his hat on it, and forced the residents that passed in front of it to
bow their heads and pay respect to that hat.

But Tell, who passed in front of the hat together with his son, was arrested since he didn’t bow his head.
Geßler told Tell, who was an expert with the crossbow, 「If you can pierce an apple placed on the top of your son’s head I will forgive you」.
The young son refused to be tied up or blindfolded, and headed on his own accord to the trunk of a linden tree.
「Why do I need to be scared? I trust on my father’s skill. Come on Dad, show him」.
And so Tell splendidly pierced the apple above his son’s head thanks to that trust,
and the released father and child gave each other a tight hug.

Immediately after.
At the moment of shooting the apple, Geßler noticed that Tell had hidden another arrow in his pocket apart from the one nocked on his crossbow.
Geßler asked for the meaning of that arrow.
Then he announced 「Had the first arrow pierced something other than the apple, I intended to kill you with this arrow」
A wrathful Geßler arrested him again, and tried to drag him away from the country.
But Tell succeeded in escaping halfway and survived.

And ——— In order to escape from the governor’s revenge, in order to protect his sons from the governor’s rage,
Tell did what he had to do.
Tell sniped Geßler, who was riding a horse at a narrow defile, and pierced his heart.

The town that lost its tyrant returned to peace, Tell was praised as a hero,
and starting from this case, the momentum of the Swiss independent movement became increasingly stronger ———.

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Class Skills:
Magic Resistance: D

Invalidates spells of one stage (Single Action).
The level of Magic Resistance of an amulet that repels magecraft.

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Independent Action: A

A skill that represents how he can manifest for a long time even in absence of a Master or without mana supply.
If it’s in a situation inside the mountains, and waiting motionlessly for his prey without moving, the effect rises more.

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Personal Skills:
Hunter of Uri: B

The techniques of hunting he learned while living with the nature in the province of Uri, currently in central Switzerland.
What lies at the basis of the widely known famous hunter.
Compositely includes several skills and techniques related to hunting such as obviously treatment of the crossbow, good visual acuity, the ability to grasp the target with the eyesight, creation of traps, their adequate installation… and so forth.
In the mountains of Uri it’s equivalent to EX.
If he takes time to get used to mountains he doesn’t know, the skill rank rises substantially.

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Unwavering Patience: C

Waiting for the prey still and without moving when it’s cold or when it’s hot, with a patience like a huge rock.
The reason why this skill is separated while parts of it are contained within the 1st skill is because this patience is the basis of a lifestyle of him providing for his family in a rustic way that goes along with nature and not having a gaudy life, and because according to legend he used this for other things besides hunting.
After the incident of the apple on his son’s head, he lurked patiently in the mountains, and waited for the evil governor to cross a defile.
Everything until now, and everything from now on. What should be done, and what must be done.
While thinking about that, he kept waiting, still, still ———.

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Aiming: EX

A skill that represents the ability to take aim with projectiles.
Ability to concentrate as the hunter who ran through the mountains of Uri. Can even shoot through the apple placed on top of his son’s head.
In addition to the high concentration to put even breathing and heartbeats under perfect control, by perfectly adapting them to the environment of the external world without being noticed,
he doesn’t 「hit」, but gets the result of 「naturally hitting」.
This is said to be connected to the spirituality of Japanese archery in Orient.

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Okay now we got this out of the way, let's get to actual business:
Lokapala William Tell

William Tell as a Lokapala has control over the North to Southwest.
Here, William Tell is able to fire a shot from well outside of Town with enough power to wipe out the Kali advancing on the party to their astonishment.
Here Tell states that it's his job to make sure the Kali doesn't outnumber the Sacred Beasts by thinning down their numbers if it gets too out of hand.
Here, Goredolf states that even Sniper Rifles would have problems firing at the distance Tell is shooting from, Holmes have to remind him he's a Servant and thus it's obvious his Crossbow would be far stronger than any normal weapon. Here, Rama states that the distance is so absurd, he can't even make out where Tell is and Pepe believe his Divinity may be involved.

Here, Goredolf tells them to take cover and hide in Shadows and the Arrows still hit even when they are taking cover with Meuniere believing Tell must be able to control his arrows mid flight despite not being able to see them. Here, Nemo ultimately explains that the Divinity inside Tell is Vayu, The God of Wind, Rama also explains he's Hanuman's and Bhima's Spiritual Father(Allowing him to "Fly Freely", control his arrows and "unparalleled strength". Here, due to Vayu, Mash can barely handle deflecting Tell's arrows. Here, when Ganesha goes with also settling down and waiting for a plan, Rama decides to rush down Tell himself only for Tell to immediately fire an arrow at him, taking away idea entirely.

Chaldeas vs. Tell

Here, Lakshmi's plan is ultimately using the Horse and Cart to get to Tell meanwhile she's on the Horse and everyone else defends Ritsuka till then. Here, Tell ultimately states he's going to aim for the horse first(Mash states he will either aim for the Horse or Lakshmibai herself). Here, Tell fires his first bolt and hits Lakshmibai in the shoulder, Tell wonders how the hell that happened as he aimed for the horse. Here, Tell fires another bolt at the horse and it still hits Lakshmibai, Tell states that "the horse somehow kicked up a pebble that knocked it off course and into the Rider".
Here, Tell then plans on aiming for Ritsuka 5 meters off using Vayu's power, somehow a bird's feather knocked the arrow off course and into Lakshmibai. Here, Tell wonders the hell is going on, a Noble Phantasm? A Skill? A Trait?(Ends up being the Divinity within her Alakshmi) Here, Lakshmibai states that as long as the bolts aren't aimed explicitly at her, she isn't in any real danger and she will have to deflect them with her sword otherwise. Here, Tell ultimately catches wise that they are all being drawn at her regardless of who he aims at and aims for her specifically. Here, Tell starts firing at Lakshmi at every direction and she has to be at high alert at all times to avoid being killed, some still get through. Here, Lakshmi ultimately accomplishes her plan and the party reaches Tell but she isn't in any real fighting condition.

Here(Basically paraphrasing), Tell remembers he doesn't like fighting at extremely far distances(i.e. WELL outside of Towns) and usually shoots comfortably at "100 paces or so". Here, upon Tell revealing himself upon Asclepius' defeat, Rama states Tell has been forced to show himself and Tell states this is his actual preferred range and with everyone being "Weak and exhaused", this is his perfect chance to "get his Quarry". Here, Holmes states if he has yet to fully recover, you may have a chance(Fat chance as Asclepius healed him earlier). Pepe reminds Ritsuka that Tell still has access to Vayu and can use it at any time.
Here, Tell precisely uses the Wind to avoid having anyone hit him and fully control the positioning of the fight. Meanwhile Mash can't even tell the arrows trajectory and it takes her everything to block them. Here, Asha accidentally ends up walking into the fight and wants to help Chaldea not die and picks up a Crossbow to help them so they can help her father. Here, Asha aims at Tell but when he tries to fire back at "someone aiming at a Hunter", he can't pull the trigger. Here, upon Ganesha basically telling Tell how much this goes against him, Tell remarks that if he even has a son and Pepe realizes Arjuna screwed with his memories. Here, Tell ultimately loses due to this but isn't killed due to Ashvatthaman's interference.

Here, Tell ends up turning on Ashvatthaman and God Arjuna for knowing that he lost his memories due to them. Here, is when he was first summoned and when and why his memories was erased.

Noble Phantasm:
Apfel Schießen: Released first arrow of faith
Rank: C
Type: Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm
Range: 1~50
Maximum number of targets: 1 person

Apfel Schießen.
The reading means 『Shooting the apple』.
The legendary arrow shot with a crossbow that admirably pierced the apple placed on top of his son’s head.
This arrow released after receiving the trust on the son’s father will never fail, and will 『certainly』 pierce the target.
Summarizing, this Noble Phantasm has the property of interfering with the law of cause and effect, and evasion is fundamentally impossible.

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Here, his sheer anger and indignation at God Arjuna has him use Noble Phantasm against God Arjuna. Ashiya fully believes he's insane for even thinking such an arrow from a "half dead Archer" would hurt God Arjuna.

Zweite Schießen: Released second best second arrow
Rank: C+
Type: Anti-Unit Noble Phantasm
Range: 1~50
Maximum number of targets: 1 person

Zweite Schießen.
A second Noble Phantasm that is activated only supposing the case in which the first Noble Phantasm that 『will never fail』 misses.
It’s derived from the anecdote in which Tell, thinking on what would happen if he missed the apple on his son, had a hidden arrow in order to shoot at the evil governor Geßler.
This arrow is released at the same time 『it must be shot in the case of the first arrow missing』.
That means this arrow is a Noble Phantasm that is conceptually overlapped and exists multiple times.
If the first arrow hits properly it will never be activated.

As if he was saying 『If I miss the apple on top of my son’s head (the first shot) everyone will die, so I have to shoot at the governor that gave that order (second shot) if I fail』, depending on the situation it can be released deciding where to shoot it at.
It’s possible to choose the same target as the first shot as well, and it will certainly pierce the target by interfering with the law of cause and effect in the same manner.
However it’s hard to fire randomly since the mana consumption becomes intenser.
… Although the situation in which 『the first arrow that will absolutely hit』 fails is not frequently seen.

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Here, basically an exposition dump on this 2nd, Hidden and Instant Noble Phantasm. Here, it was able to nail God Arjuna regardless of Mahapralaya activating or God Arjuna's insane Divinity. Here, Tell ultimately states that it's this 2nd arrow which is his true Noble Phantasm that no matter who or what it is, his arrow will hit the target no matter what. Here, Douman states that it's an arrow based on casuality(Seriously, so many NPs, Magic and Skills use Casuality as a basis, it's hilarious) and a shadow arrow that only exists if the first ever misses and Tell further infused it with all of Vayu's Divinity to make certain it will hit(Which is how and why God Arjuna not only felt it, he got pissed at Tell, inadvertently saving Chaldea)

Alright finally done with that. Jeez, doing all of these Boss explicit versions is seriously gonna suck... thank god LB5.1 only really just has Chiron there as Odysseus literally doesn't do dick.

While another chapter of Turas Realta came out, we get a translated version of this:





Nightingale OHK's a Spriggan with a single strong punch and it's all but stated the Spriggan is a subclass near a Fairy(Which would be an Elemental)... Really fucking impressive all things considered as the Nasuverse seems to operate on bigger = Stronger and more Durable(See Kingprotea, Golem Keter Malkuth and the Giants in LB2).
Also very much ties in just how strong(and much stronger) Servants on her level truly are.

Type-Rey said:

Spriggans are common ass enemies we've been fighting since the Singularities .
Any decent Servant should be able to replicate what Night did by virtue of just being a Servant.

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True but it's still hilariously funny how this is another Common Enemy being translated into a huge monstrosity which further shows how bullshit Servants are alongside the 4th Anniversary.
It also shows how bullshit Spriggans are since they still follow that Size = Strength and Durability and they are still just "mooks"(Shinjuku especially does that).

I'm adding this from the Lord El-Melloi Novel Series

the underlings release lightning magecraft enhanced by the abilities of the weather magecraft and Svin reacts and counters:

"He jumped.Even so, the attackers responded as appropriate.At once, they released the magecraft they had been holding back. Though the lightning they released was no more than a One Count spell, thanks to the enhancing effects of the Weather Manipulation, it should have had no issue tearing apart their unlucky opponent.But instead, the hand one of them had extended forward vanished.
In the same way as his teeth had become fangs, Svin's fingernails had likewise become razorlike claws."

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Altrum fires an electrical construct with the speed of lightning and Svin counters

"And so they gained control of a power considered to be entirely within the realms of the gods in any number of ancient lands. Utilizing that power, they accrued tremendous prosperity. And of course, in having access to that power, spells that manipulated the weather came only a few steps later.
"Gush Out."
With those words, the electricity became an enormous hand.

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The speed with which it attacked was on par with that of lightning.

Powering through the resistance in the air as if it was nothing, in the blink of an eye it struck out at the boy.
In answer, the phantasmal wolf roared.
Both were techniques overflowing with magical energy. Lightning and Sound..."

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Altrum uses a stronger technique to summon a lightning dragon with speed on the level of the previous attack and Svin blitzes the attack and reaches the top of the trees

"Drawing forth many times the amount of magical energy he had used earlier through his Magic Circuits, he activated his Crest while pouring it into the Battery. The spell bought by the Galiasta family converted that magical energy into lightning with the utmost efficiency.
It was like a dragon.
Anyone looking at that scene would surely be able to envision the jaws of that terrible creature opening wide before him.
Brooking no attempts at flight, the lightning-born dragon soared forward to swallow Svin - who disappeared a moment before contact.
With a speed no human's eyes could follow, Svin leapt away.Scattering branches and trunks like pinball, the gathered magi cried out in surprise as Svin fell like a shooting star, claws aiming straight for Atram's head."

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Touko Aozaki, is able to keep up with Svin and cast magic quickly enough to stop his full strength/speed lunge at Altram.

"In an instant, Svin reached out with the back leg of his illusion, leaping back to a nearby tree, slightly changing his posture in the air.
Having avoided the electric net Atram had put in place for him, he cycled his magical energy around to prepare to tear him apart. Even if he was going to use a thin layer of electricity to defend himself, all he had to do was tear through it. And so he had swung down with all his might.
But at that moment, a powerful impact hit him from the side, blowing him away entirely. Wrenching himself free of his illusionary body, Svin had just barely managed to land upright.
It wasn't something Atram had done. The proof of that was that the electric net was torn apart yet again, prompting a shocked reaction from the dark skinned man himself.
(...what was that?!)
Though obscured by the rain and darkness, from the middle of the forest emerged a bright scarlet.
As that lone figure approached, everything went immediately quiet.
"...hey now," the figure spoke. "Aren't you guys going a bit overboard with the magecraft here?" As if that was some trouble for her, the woman smiled."

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Paxton said:

Small question: what the fuck are True Daemons/Primordial Daemons?
Is that just another name for the Outer Gods or...?

And are there even any examples of one?

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Okay, that's a REALLY complicated thing because to be real, we only ever got hints of them at best(Basically it seems something that will be expanded upon later on in a different series entirely or if Nasu wants FGO to go in that direction).

The best thing we ever got about True Daemons/Primordial Daemons seem to be WELL beyond the Demon God Pillars, Divine Spirits and even the Beasts considering Kiara's goal is to ultimately become one.
And in the Tsukihime Remake, Kiara's version there found out despite her bullshit capabilities... she would be the equivalent of a toadpole between the truly highly ranked ones(Which considering she can potentially equal the Buddha at her absolute best... speaks volumes)

Apparently, it seems that the Outer Gods CAN count as them as they are used as an example.
Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: True Demon [Circumstances], p.190
True Demon [Circumstances]

Even in the world of Extra, the concept of Demons (悪魔の概念, akuma no gainen?) is by humanity treated as the greatest of obstacles; so as God is to omniscience and omnipotence (全知全能, zenchi zenou?), so as demons as an existence are to mortal levels of awareness and impotence (人知無能, Jinchi Munou?, lit. "human intellect and impotence").

They are as an abyss (淵, fuchi?) that lies within arm's reach, yet decisively beyond comprehension.

Distinct from those demons from Stay Night, which exist only as imitations, the real thing -- Enfleshed Demons (受肉した悪魔, juniku-shita akuma?, lit. "Incarnated Demon") are that with which humans are incapable of competing 太刀打ちできない (tachi-uchi-dekinai, lit. "incapable of crossing swords"?).

(※ There is in record only a single instance in which an Enfleshed Demon was forced to disperse (退散, taisan?, lit. "disperse / retreat"), but that's a different story.)

In general, demons are existences that take possession, utilizing the corpus of a human to incarnate (受肉, juniku) and take action, but in the event that the psyche (精神, seishin?) of the human host (苗床になる人間, naedoko ni naru ningen?, lit. "the human that becomes a seed-bed") cannot withstand the strain, it is commonplace for self-annihilation (自壊, jikai?) of the host to occur, dispersing the essence of the demon into the vicinity.

There exist also humans who by way of their own acts (業, gō?, lit. "sins; worldly preoccupations / fixations / absorptions; karma") are subsumed unto the category of Demons as a result of losing their humanity; but these creatures that are said to have become Fiends (魔人, Majin?) cannot be considered True Demons.

In the world of Extra -- whether by way of Demonic possession, or in the circumstance that one's own actions bring about a transformation -- the phenomenon whereby a True Demon is birthed unto the world has, as of present day in 2030, not been brought successful fruition even once.

Though the classifications of "Demons" and "Fiends" do exist, their manner of existence is in essence indistinguishable from that of a higher-order lifeform (高次元生命体, kou-jigen seimeitai?, lit. "higher-dimension lifeform") that inhabits a different sphere of civilization (異なる文明圏, koto-naru bunmei-ken?) upon a different planet (異なる惑星, koto-naru wakusei?).

In sum, said existences can, per the recognition of the Universe of Awareness (認識宇宙, ninshiki-uchuu?, lit. "the universe derived of observation / perception"), no longer be discerned as "human."

Their existences would approximate to that of the cosmic horrors (邪神, jashin?, lit. "evil god") of a certain fictitious Mythos popular in the 20th century.

In the True Route of CCC, a certain individual that has undergone transmigration did indeed manage to reach this realm, but owing to a slight mistake, they were capsized from the Seat of Divinity (神の座, kami no za?).

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Their existences would approximate to that of the cosmic horrors (邪神, jashin?, lit. "evil god") of a certain fictitious Mythos popular in the 20th century.
In the True Route of CCC, a certain individual that has undergone transmigration did indeed manage to reach this realm, but owing to a slight mistake, they were capsized from the Seat of Divinity (神の座, kami no za?)

Paxton said:

So hypothetically, they'd be up there with shit like Chaos/Types/the strongest of Deities?
Or beyond them all?

Like who'd be their equals besides Outer Gods, if any.

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It's hard to tell because according to this, they are extremely varied in power and if the Outer Gods deal still holds, they can't even enter our Realm by any normal means... but their proxies are so fucking strong, it would require heavy bullshit to deal with them.
It also doesn't help we only really encountered 2 of them as a whole(Kiara Sesshouin in Extra/CCC but she was gimped and the Outer Gods who can't even enter our Realm normally and needs proxies to do so on any level.) and otherwise, we don't even know who counts(Could other beings like Velber count? TYPEs from different Worlds? Beings from differing Universes?)

Type-Rey said:

You're confusing the terms.

Basically there are three main classes of Demons/Daemons (fuck this stupid term bullshit )

1. There's Demon (魔 Ma) which is the thing Tsuki Kiara tried to become, which is basically a distortion of nature , something that is kinda similar to Divine shit , as one creature can kinda be both depending where you're from.

2. There's Daemons /Devils (悪魔 Akuma which are products of human consciousness , the type of thing that posses shit.

3. And finally there's True Daemons (真性悪魔 Shinsei Akuma which are the cosmic horror, hyper powerful BS thing that CCC Kiara tried to become.
There's a subcategory here which is Primordial Daemons (Gensho no akuma) which were hyped as being among the strongest beings in the verse.

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Yeah thanks for that. The Terms are seriously confusing and even while I get what Nasu is talking about, this feels the closest to becoming something from To Aru for me.