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TYPE-Moon/Nasuverse Feats/General Thread - People Die If They Are Killed Edition

Just for the hell of it, because I'm not stuck on a cellphone now~

Kirei's best feat occurs literally minutes before he dies.

Kirei Kotomine vs Shirou Emiya (HF)

Day 16 (HF)

Here, Shirou senses no magical energy from the dying Kotomine. Here, Kotomine without magic is far stronger than Shirou even after EMIYA's arm has improved his body. Here, Shirou reasserts Kotomine without magical energy is much stronger than himself despite EMIYA's arm altering his body.

Here, Shirou asserts Kotomine will smash his head in if he tries to take the time to project (contextually, the Excalibur Morgan he needs to off the Grail/Angra Mainyu). Here, strength enters Kotomine's body. This fight won't involve magic, skill, or strategy. Just a brawl. Here, Kotomine dashes at Shirou, Shirou's unable to do this himself anymore. Here, Shirou punches full force at Kotomine, Kotomine dodges and Shirou ends up being hit by Kotomine. Here, Kotomine's still fast enough to disappear from Shirou's vision.

Here, Kotomine punches Shirou's stomach and kicks up at Shirou's body. Here, Kotomine's kick is strong enough to inflict Shirou with pain great enough to almost knock him unconscious. Here, Kotomine's kick sent Shirou meters into the air, would have been able to rip his head off. The second blow to his stomach was strong enough to pulverize Shirou's organs. Here, Kotomine uses Super Bajiquan to damage Shirou's insides through striking his outsides. Here, Kotomine uses a palm strike, the attack pierces through Shirou's sword armor to his insides.

Here, All of Shirou's attacks have been dodged or parried, all of Kotomine's have landed cleanly. Here, Shirou blocks Kotomine's punch aimed for his head. Shirou's head isn't made of swords yet and will end the fight for him if hit there. Here, Kotomine strikes Shirou with a kick, Kotomine's fists are pulverizing Shirou's body. EMIYA's arm desperately tries to heal Shirou's body with swords. Here, the more Shirou is struck by Kotomine, the more his Left arm turns his body into swords to repair the damage. Here, Shirou dodges one of Kotomine's punches, Shirou punches Kotomine, Kotomine repel's Shirou's punch. Here, Kotomine punches Shirou, despite being numbed to all pain but EMIYA's arm Kotomine's attack hurt and sent Shirou almost flying off the cliff. Here, Kotomine deflected Shirou's next punch and blows Shirou away with his counterattack.


Honestly, the Heaven's Feel Movie version makes Shirou look much better than the VN did (Shirou didn't believe his head would survive Kirei's punches whereas the movie proved that false in the opening exchange).

Any rate?

For Shirou's best Sword Body Armor Feat for both is internals and externals?

Shirou Emiya (Fate) vs Gilgamesh

Here, Shirou endures a strike from some hammer Noble Phantasm from Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon (Gilgamesh was not trying to kill Shirou).

Here, Shirou begins to overclock his magical energy in order to get back into the fight. Here, Shirou's body reinforces itself through UBW swords stitching back together. Here, Shirou's overclocked body is now patched up enough to stand back up to fight. Here, Gilgamesh attacks with Merodach/Gram's version of the attack Caliburn used to kill Herakles, Shirou's Caliburn goes to clash with it, Caliburn breaks on impact. Here, Shirou's body was split from left shoulder to waist by Merodach/Gram's version of Caliburn's attack. Here, Shirou's body was reinforced by UBW swords stitching it together enough that he was praised by Gilgamesh for his durability (as he was able to keep his body from being blown ["scattered" as Gil offered] apart by Merodach/Gram's version of Caliburn's attack like Gilgamesh was expecting to happen).

What else? For Heaven's Feel? Before the Artoria Alter fight?

Here, The flow of magical energy from EMIYA's arm is so potent it causes Shirou's bones to break. Here, EMIYA's arm will reinforce the broken parts (the same way it has been with Avalon, his body is made of blades). Here, EMIYA's Unlimited Blade Works is invading Shirou's body the more he uses the arm, its already far enough along he can hear creaking sounds.

Before the Dark Sakura fight?

Here, Shirou's spent most of the magical energy in himself and EMIYA's arm, he thinks he can only manage one more projection (he can manage 2, really, but that's besides the point as Excalibur killed his ass anyway). Here, Unlimited Blade Works turns Shirou's body further into swords, he figures he could repel bullets now.

Next?

Here, Sakura's refusing Angra Mainyu, it now acts against her will and keeps her alive. Here, the Shadow attacks Rin, Shirou shields Rin's body with his own and he tanks the blow to his back. Here, the Shadow's next attack grazes Shirou's cheek, Sakura's yell prevents it from slicing through his neck. Here, Sakura tries fighting back against the Shadow, the only thing this does is increase their numbers. Here, Sakura can't suppress the Shadow, the next blow grazes Shirou's cheek. Here, seems like the next strike lands on Shirou's shoulder. Here, the Shadow's pressure gets stronger towards Shirou with each step he takes. Here, the Shadow strikes Shirou's stomach next, it fails to pierce, Sakura's intentionally trying to push Shirou away. Here, Shirou removes the Shroud of Martin for the last time. Here, the Shadows lance towards Shirou's chest, shoulder, left leg, and stomach. The Shadow can't pierce his body made of swords. Here, Shirou's body of swords tanks 2 more strikes from the Shadow. Here, Shirou projects Rule Breaker, he uses all the remaining magical energy he has.

For the anime? Here, tanks numerous tendrils from Angra Mainyu, seemingly having thrown a tantrum at Shirou's suggestion he and Sakura save the living Rin together. Here, look at all that holding back Sakura's able to do. Here, the only arguable holding back Sakura does as she's the actual one doing the attacking. Here, scares the piss out of Angra Mainyu with the threat of projection and it attacks him with a trio of tendrils that do fuck all.

Mind you?

Here, Cu Chulainn employs the protection of all of his 18 Primal Runes to defend against Angra Mainyu/Sakura Matou's Shadow's tentacle attack, the defense doesn't even slow them down despite being able to defend against a great Noble Phantasm (I imagine that'd be A rank given his Gae Bolg is only "average")

Here, the anime's version didn't really go any differently.

All this before confronting Kirei.

And the other decent bit feat?

Shirou Emiya (Fate) vs Medusa (Shinji Matou)

Here, Shinji tells Medusa to not restrain herself. Here, Shirou endures an attack from Medusa. Here, Shirou appears to block a strike aimed for his neck in time for Medusa to stab his blocking arm. Here, Shirou endures being cut by Medusa's strikes numerous times.

Here, Medusa hits Shirou's shoulder. Shirou's body had already started to self heal, so the muscles that were being knit together by swords causes Medusa's dagger to break on impact. Medusa muses she can't kill Shirou with her dagger. Here, Shirou endures a roundhouse kick from Medusa out the window. Here, Medusa's kick tossed him a few dozen meters away. Here, Shirou survives hitting the ground if he summons Artoria (here, in the bad end, he doesn't, his body overproduces the swords for some reason... the fuck's the difference?). Here, the Tiger Dojo confirms Shirou would normally die from Medusa's kick without his body reinforcing itself with swords (be it Shinji or Sakura Rider, this is them coyly alluding to his body made of blades).
 
Let's also talk Bazettt's accolades?

Here, Bazett's power as a magus is 3 times that of Rin's (dead link, but this is basically verbatim IIRC).

And yet?

Dengeki Hime 08/2006 - Bazett vs Medea said:
『Fate』Dream Battle Round 4 です。

とりあえず、電撃の編集さんの予想は、
・バゼットは近距離の格闘戦が主体だが、キャスターは接近を許さないだろう
・したがって中距離での魔術戦になるがこの分野ではキャスターが有利
・そこでバゼットにはフラガラックがあるが、キャスターの切り札は
ルールブレイカーなのでフラガラックは真価を発揮できない
という流れでキャスターの勝利では?といった感じでした。

それに対して奈須さんは
考察通りキャスターの圧倒的有利で戦いは進みます。
バゼットにとって戦闘における切り札を持たないキャスターは
実にやりにくい相手。大魔術を時にかわし、弾き、相殺する
ゼット女史ですが、チャンスを掴めないまま体力切れかと。
……あとほら。キャスターさん、成熟した女性には
容赦のない人ですから。

Fate Dream Battle Round 4 - Bazett vs. Caster

Nasu: As has been speculated (by the editors), the battle would proceed with Caster winning overwhelmingly. As Caster doesn't have a trump card to use against Bazett, she's quite the difficult opponent for Bazett to handle. While lady Bazett is at times able to dodge, deflect, or nullify high thaumaturgy, she'd be fatigued before she could grab a chance at getting the upper hand.
.....Oh and you see. Caster-san. She's merciless against mature women.

So that's a lovely contradiction. She's "at times" able to accomplish the same things Rin was accomplishing in the UBW route, despite being 3 times the magus in power. Sure, Rin's gemcraft let's her hit outside her weight class, but if the quote doesn't include it then Rin should nuke anyway as it no more qualifies as a "trump card" as Medea's magical bullshit would by proxy. Nasu REALLY left that qualifier poorly defined.

Next?

Dengeki Hime 10/2006 said:
今回の対決は、士郎が“自分を最大まで鍛錬、運用”していることが前提なので、
割といい勝負になる!?と思われがちですが、バゼット嬢は対魔術師戦に特化した
プロフェッショナル。技術、経験、そして戦術。すべてが上回っている彼女が
相手では「壊れた幻想」をもってしてもシロウの不利は動かないかと。
あとほら。容赦ないし、このお嬢。

Fate Dream Battle Round 5 - Bazett vs. Shirou

Nasu:With this time's battle, since we're working off the assumption that Shirou "has trained/is operating himself to the max", people might think that this might end up being a good fight, but m'lady Bazett's a trained professional specializing in anti-magus battles. Technique, experience, and battle power. Against someone like her whose superior in all those regards, even with a "Broken Phantasm", Shirou's disadvantages are still not going to change. And you see. She's ruthless.

So, the woman that has to run from Herakles has more battle power than the most inexperienced version of Shirou that traded blows with him via Caliburn? That can deflect shots from GoB in UBW? That can trade blows with Saber Alter with a level of prowess approaching EMIYA's in Sparks Liner High? Nah, Nasu's high on his own fumes as she's directly shown incapable of comparable battle power by definition outside of Fragarach.

Comptiq 2006-11 - Bazett vs Ciel said:
Source

Q: また、協会屈指の実力者・バゼットと、教会でも最高クラスのシエルが戦ったらどっちが勝つんですか?

A. あとバゼットさんとシエル嬢ですが、ホロウの段階ではシエルの勝ちは動きません。バゼットさんが開眼してフラガラックを使いこなせるようになるといい勝負になります。

vs Ciel

Q: Also, who'd win in a fight between Bazett, a renowned powerhouse of the Association, and Ciel, top class in even the Association?

A: Oh, and regarding Bazett-san and Lady Ciel, Ciel'd still win at the point Bazett was in Hollow. Once Bazett awakens and masters Fragarach, it'll turn into a good match.
Good for Ciel, but nothing particularly notable in the long run. This is also what i mean about Tsukihime relying on accolades. Their feats in general don't carry them unless they're named Arcueid.
Comptiq 2007-11 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A said:
Q:言峰、バゼット、葛木、「メルブラ」の都古や軋間紅摩の中で、魔術・武器を使わない純粋な肉弾戦で戦ったらトップ3は誰になりますか?(福島県/鬼瓦)

A:軋間は存在自体が神秘の類になってしまうので除外。
本人にその気がなくても薬物検査にひっかかる選手みたいなもんです。
この面子なら純粋に強いのはバゼット。
一戦だけ&闇討ち上等、という限定なら葛木。
言峰は十年若ければバゼットさんよりトータルで強い。

Q: Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with no weapons or magecraft?

A: I’m excluding Kouma since his existence itself has become a mystery.
And even if he didn’t have that nature, he’s like an athlete caught by drug testing.
Out of the four left, the winner in pure strength is Bazett.
If it’s limited to one match and a surprise attack, then it’s Kuzuki.
And if it’s the Kotomine from ten years ago, he’s stronger than Bazett overall.
Don't really see the meaning in discussing Magecraft anyway. Leysritt is Bazett's physical ceiling with Magecraft considered, and she's south of Sakura Medusa anyway (outskilled and sped Hassan, sure, but he was able to clash with her well enough if only for a time). Nice of Nasu not to include Kouma, if only because the asshole is in the "can handle dealing with an average NP" tier of human that neither Bazett or Ciel fall into.
Comptiq 2006-07 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A - Bazett vs Kuzuki said:
Q:バゼットと葛木が肉弾戦を行ったらどちらの勝ちか?という質問です。

A:回答ですが、初戦なら葛木がやや有利、2回戦目があるのならバゼットのほぼ完勝という結果らしいです。
未見ならセイバーも撃退するスキルを持つ葛木ですがバゼットも人間が考え、鍛え上げてきた格闘術のエキスパートということで、才能重視のサーヴァントたちよりも早く葛木の“蛇”に対応できる可能性もあるとか。
あと、葛木が一般人なのでバゼットが甘く見てしまいあっさり倒されるかもしれないとも言われていました。

Q: If Bazett and Kuzuki got in a hand-to-hand fight against each other, who would win?

A: If it's the first fight, then Kuzuki will win. If it's the second fight, then Bazett would pretty much completely win. Kuzuki could even drive Saber into a corner as long as his trick was kept hidden, but Bazett is also an expert at hand-to-hand combat thought of and developed by human beings. There's the possibility that she might adapt to Kuzuki's "snake" quicker than the Servants, who are more emphasized by their talent. However, since she might underestimate Kuzuki-sensei as being a normal person, Bazett could be beaten pretty simply.
I'm not even sure Nasu's justification for why Bazett would adapt to Snake faster makes sense? Its still the same man that, through Medea's bullshit reinforcement, caught Saber's physical strike between his elbow and knee. Something we know she can't accomplish given her struggles with Leysritt.
 
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I think Nasu subscribes to the (fairly common among writers) idea that skill is an arbitrary multiplier that can cancel out any difference in strength/speed between combatants provided the weilder has enough of it. :hm

Which, it's a cool idea, but skill isn't even a multiplier, just a measure of how efficiently you're using your own strength/speed. :catskully

But it would explain at least some of the larger discrepancies
 
I feel that the only way the Bazett stuff makes sense is if you include Prisma Illya Bazett to HA Bazett because otherwise, HA Bazett is pretty featless in the grand scheme of things(I want to make certain people don't get the wrong idea) outside of Fragrach.

Tsukihime, outside of Arcueid, falls on accolades big time to the point even Nasu realized Ciel was lacking hardcore and that's why in the Remake, her Side got a massive revamp... which hilariously still didn't make her shine that hard outside of Calvarro Star, which IS significant as hell, and that other technique.
But I think many people jump on the Bandwagon that the Remake somehow changed the paradigm of them being weaker than Servants... despite that not being the case...

Idea Blood, at it's core, is in the same capacity as a Divine Spirit's Authority and a TA's Event Storage... but none of those are power related at their core. Lostbelt Zeus and God Arjuna aren't as powerful as they are because they have multiple Authorities, they are as powerful as they are because they have just that much power(Yeah, obvious Oxymoron), same with Arcueid compared to the other TA's. Hell, the story and Arcueid herself states Vlov is an absolute joke of a Dead Apostle Ancestor due to basically getting the Idea Blood way before he's ready and he's only "saved" due to his experience as a Knight, not the Idea Blood itself.

DAA's are as strong as Servants... just like how even in FGO, there is quite a few times of Servants being capable of fighting against Divine Spirits(Of course, that doesn't mean all of them), but outside of ORT(Who only got his spot due to another DAA being a dumbass) and Primate Murder(Who may not even be on the spot in the Remake), there's no DAA more outlandishly powerful than a Servant or a Divine Spirit and people take Jester's word in F/SF way too literally when Authorities for a Divine Spirit was never power based:
Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: Authority [Miracle], p.179 [T]
Authority [Miracle]
Kennou. Authorities are special abilities that fall into a different category than Codecasts, Skills, and Noble Phantasms.
An Authority is a power that is on the level of creating a world, and includes things like altering events, time-flow manipulation, and kingdom building.
Authorities existed in the age known as the Age of Gods, which was about 6000 years ago, but after entering the Common Era human civilization advanced to the point where Authorities were no longer needed, and so Authorities became a relic of the past.
Normal skills achieve a certain result based on some logical process or principle, but Authorities realize a result simply because the user has the right to do so.
A God Spirit Class Servant should naturally possess Authorities, but to use them in the modern age requires a corresponding compensation to be paid (involving strain/damage inflicted on the user).
In CCC the one who swallowed up Moon Cell has reached a level of power that is Authority class.

Authorities can literally range from commanding the Sun to appear(or something equivalent in Quetzalcoatl's case), Turning people/machines into animals(Artemis and Apollo), Creating the Primordial Sea(Tiamat), blanketing the World in Ice and Snow(Scathath-Skadi), etc.
The very thing we see Vlov do... that's something on the level of an Authority, that's what Jester was talking about and thus, that's what makes DAA's special, it doesn't make them on the level of Divine Spirits in terms of power, it just gives them the ability to do their abilities because that's their right to do so.
 
Didn't the writer of Prillya say at one point that he got the wrong idea about Bazett from what Nasu said and made her way too strong or something?

Like even outside of her stats she fucking brings herself back to life with almost no prep. Prillya Bazett was on crack :catskully
 
Didn't the writer of Prillya say at one point that he got the wrong idea about Bazett from what Nasu said and made her way too strong or something?

Like even outside of her stats she fucking brings herself back to life with almost no prep. Prillya Bazett was on crack :catskully

Honestly, that doesn't even matter considering the fact that Nasu basically allowed Narita to go wild and even adjusted shit so he can go even more wild.

There's also the fact the Prillya Writer didn't even want it to be canon to the overall Nasuverse and Nasu all but stated "Fuck off, this is the Illya route!" in another questionnaire.

PI Bazett being that strong wouldn't even be a retcon or anything, I would be finally establishing her and making her matter in the grand scheme.
 
I think Nasu subscribes to the (fairly common among writers) idea that skill is an arbitrary multiplier that can cancel out any difference in strength/speed between combatants provided the weilder has enough of it. :hm

Which, it's a cool idea, but skill isn't even a multiplier, just a measure of how efficiently you're using your own strength/speed. :catskully

But it would explain at least some of the larger discrepancies
Nah, he literally mentioned experience and technique in conjunction to battle power relative to Shirou, all of which he granted her the nod over Shirou

Which, again, is objectively false when her upper limit in raw physical might is Leysritt and her sturdiness doesn't extend any further either. Don't get me wrong, south of Sakura Medusa is solid, but when you're discussing battle power, the guy that trades blows with Herakles and slices off his arm, parries/deflects/blocks numerous shots from GoB, and even reaches a point in power just shy of his future counter guardian trading strikes with Saber Alter (yet another peer to Herakles) is objectively measurable to be beyond her in battle power.
 
Which, again, is objectively false when her upper limit in raw physical might is Leysritt and her sturdiness doesn't extend any further either. Don't get me wrong, south of Sakura Medusa is solid, but when you're discussing battle power, the guy that trades blows with Herakles and slices off his arm, parries/deflects/blocks numerous shots from GoB, and even reaches a point in power just shy of his future counter guardian trading strikes with Saber Alter (yet another peer to Herakles) is objectively measurable to be beyond her in battle power.

Really does speak when Shirou truly has survived some bullshit and done some incredible bullshit.
Sometimes you just forget that under what a geek Shirou is.
 
Really does speak when Shirou truly has survived some bullshit and done some incredible bullshit.
Sometimes you just forget that under what a geek Shirou is.
He likes his underdog narratives, and he's good at framing them that way. The issues come when those stories are removed from isolation to interact with the rest of the story and his writing falls apart. In the Fate route alone, he has Shirou project Caliburn while Herakles is in the middle of swinging for the kill, yet Nasu also wants us to believe it would take him a minute to project it before the fight against Kirei. He clearly wanted an ending that involved Avalon for the symmetry between Shirou and Saber's fight, but he wrote Caliburn off to given Kirei a chance to force the issue. All he needed to do was make the curses more impressive rather than remove part of Shirou's kit (hell, just the burden of having to project two separate kinds of weapons at his level of inexperience would have sufficed)

All that to say it makes it a shame we don't get to see the bad ass Nasu envisions Bazett to be in his mind outside the fucking magical girl spin off.

Accolades flesh out the verse when a character isn't frequently given spot light. Issue being when the spotlight we receive functions as a ceiling and fails to even reach to floor of the person they're compared to.
 
Yeah, that's one of the bigger issues with Kinoko Nasu works:

He loves setting shit up in different stories and having them pay off in a different one... to the point they usually miss rather than hit.
It's why I'm surprised ORT was such a major hit as it's REAL easy to fuck that shit up, especially as ORT was 20 years in the making there.
 


I know Type-Rey showed off the scene of Orion shooting down Artemis as a scene he loves so I'll do the same here:

Damn this small scene got me. Maybe it's due to my own life experiences or the fact I'm honestly a sucker for scenes like this but seeing the absolute trust between Kirschtaria and Caenis right to the end(And the latter deciding to do a final battle with Chaldeas simply to prove she's worthy of being his Servant) just gets me...
 
ld5NsVQ.jpg

Df69Rg6.jpg


I couldn't capture all of the insane transitions that happened on the ingame map but I for damn certain got some of the most striking ones.

Planning on going back to the LB5 Archives tomorrow.
 
DAA's are as strong as Servants... just like how even in FGO, there is quite a few times of Servants being capable of fighting against Divine Spirits(Of course, that doesn't mean all of them), but outside of ORT(Who only got his spot due to another DAA being a dumbass) and Primate Murder(Who may not even be on the spot in the Remake), there's no DAA more outlandishly powerful than a Servant
I don't know, some DAA like TATARI, Zeltrech or Dark six (if they're indeed 6 asshole fae) are certainly more powerful than third or second rate servants like Mandy, Hassan (minus KH), Nobukatsu and so on
 
Cause you're looking at the extremes of one group and comparing the extreme of the other group. Nobukatsu isn't even a proper heroic spirit, he's piggybacking off of Nobunaga's spirit origin. Cursed Arm basically admits without the Arm of Shaytan he's barely worthy of being called an Assassin. Never mind Assassin is one of the weakest classes for a reason
 
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