Wanda (MoM) Replaces Medea (Caster) in FSN

[Edward Nygma]

Wanda should be able to fill Caster's role in the FSN storyline perfectly.

1. Minions
2. Arcane Domain (Hex vs Territory creation)
3. Severe trauma related to parenthood and/or romantic partners

Assume everything plays out the same leading up to Medea's first interaction with an enemy Master/Servant. She successfully ensnares Shirou and brings him to the shrine. How does Wanda fare going forward?

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

She gets murdered by Gilgamesh like Medea did and Artoria would laugh off her Magic as well.

 

[Edward Nygma]

rtoria would laugh off her Magic as well.

Wanda's hex can stop and erase time. That should be on the level of True Magic. Even EX Magic Resistance is only effective against upper-level magecraft. Artoria's own resistance description emphasizes that it is effective against modern magi.

Artoria's A-Rank Magic Resistance:

Cancel spells of A-Rank or below, no matter what greater magecraft it is. In practice, the Servant is untouchable to modern magi, so it would not be an exaggeration to title the Servant a "Magus Killer"

Surtr's EX-Rank Magic Resistance:

Completely nullifies effects of almost every harmful Magecraft.

 

[Adamant soul]

Wanda's hex can stop and erase time. That should be on the level of True Magic. Even EX Magic Resistance is only effective against upper-level magecraft. Artoria's own resistance description emphasizes that it is effective against modern magi.

Artoria's A-Rank Magic Resistance:


Surtr's EX-Rank Magic Resistance:

Except that Saber can also shrug off magic abilities from other servants, who are obviously a fuck ton more powerful than modern Magi using magic (and even the five sorcerers themselves). Even Caster pretty much acknowledges she can't do shit to Saber without Rule Breaker.

The whole reason the knight classes have magic resistance in the first place, is because they come from the age of myth and gods when magic was not only A LOT more powerful, but also more widespread than it is in modern day.

NOTE: The translation of the visual novel I'm reading uses magic in place of magecraft and sorcery in place of true magic. I'm sort of used to that now so I'll be sticking to it, sorry if it confuses anyone.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

NOTE: The translation of the visual novel I'm reading uses magic in place of magecraft and sorcery in place of true magic. I'm sort of used to that now so I'll be sticking to it, sorry if it confuses anyone.

True Magic is it's own Beast but Divine Sorcery usually includes Age of the Gods-Tier Magic which is also it's own beast, FYI.

 

[Edward Nygma]

Even Caster pretty much acknowledges she can't do shit to Saber without Rule Breaker.

Yeah. Rule Breaker is an artifact from the AoG, and is the closest thing to True Magic she has.

TIme manipulation is just flat-out True Magic (Fifth Magic), and is beyond what Medea is capable of in the modern era.

The whole reason the knight classes have magic resistance in the first place, is because they come from the age of myth and gods when magic was not only A LOT more powerful, but also more widespread than it is in modern day.

That doesn't change the mechanics of the skill they possess as a servant.

Magic Resistance as a skill protects from magecraft, not from True Magic.

Being from the AoG just gives you a higher ranking than you otherwise would have. This is explained in EMIYA's D-Rank skill description.

Although EMIYA was a magus during his life and possesses unusual Projection sorcery, his affinity with "sorcery" is much worse compared to Heroic Spirits of ancient times who saw sorceries and True Magics as commonplace. The level of Magic Resistance is a result of this.

 

[Vespa Crabro]

The fifth isn't and has never been time manipulation

we don't know what the fuck it is

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Yeah. Rule Breaker is an artifact from the AoG, and is the closest thing to True Magic she has.

Um, Rule Breaker doesn't do shit to Saber... at all.
And secondly, EVERYTHING Medea does comes from the Age of the Gods, not the Age of Man. She was literally raised by a Demi-God at the height of the Age.

TIme manipulation is just flat-out True Magic (Fifth Magic), and is beyond what Medea is capable of in the modern era.

Time Manipulation can be done outside of True Magic, again, why are you being incorrect about this. Norikata Emiya and Kiritsugu explicitly screws with Time, certain Authorities can screw with time like Summer BB's. What Aoko's Fifth Magic does is explicitly NOT screwing with time and comes off more like Entropy

That doesn't change the mechanics of the skill they possess as a servant.

Magic Resistance as a skill protects from magecraft, not from True Magic.

Wanda doesn't have anything equivalent to True Magic and a comparison to that is insane.

Being from the AoG just gives you a higher ranking than you otherwise would have. This is explained in EMIYA's D-Rank skill description.

Which would still be beyond what Wanda does in Multiverse of Madness. You have to go dead into the various Cameos of Strange and What If? to even get Wanda to that level you are speaking of.

 

[Type-Rey]

Even if we could equate whatever Wanda can do with Magic which is a dumb assertion to make given the actual mechanics and requirements for it and also the fact that stopping time is even possible outside AoG or Magic shit ( Kiritsugu could have used limited area timestop through his magic crest but it wasn't really worth it so he dropped it) , that would ultimately end up with the CF going apeshit and sending CG to deal with her.

So, it would ultimately add more trouble to Wanda than it is worth so...

 

[Qinglong]

Temporal stasis / localized time stop is possible for modern magi, the problem is it's mana intensive so Kerry considers it useless in combat and doesn't bother attempting it at all (it's also implied he just straight up rejected trying to inherit it)

 

[Edward Nygma]

The fifth isn't and has never been time manipulation

we don't know what the fuck it is

What Aoko's Fifth Magic does is explicitly NOT screwing with time and comes off more like Entropy

Skimming posts and the wiki made it seem like the 5th and 2n were both related to time manipulation.

Time Manipulation can be done outside of True Magic, again, why are you being incorrect about this. Norikata Emiya and Kiritsugu explicitly screws with Time, certain Authorities can screw with time like Summer BB's.

Yeah. I thought that the Emiya magecraft was touching the edge of True Magic Kind of like how Sasaki's NP reaches into that realm.

I also thought anything BB did was basically >> any modern magecraft. So, even if her time manipulation didn't qualify as True Magic, it would be well beyond the protection provided by Magic Resistance.

Wanda doesn't have anything equivalent to True Magic and a comparison to that is insane.

OK. Even if she's not on the level of True Magic, I still think her hexes are beyond any magecraft we have seen Artoria's Magic Resistance protect against.

Wanda's hex bubble is pretty comparable to a Reality Marble. A tangible area within normal space, but that internally is outside of normal space/time. Inside her bubble, Wanda:

1. can manipulate matter down to at least a molecular level (likely atomic)
2. controls the flow of time. She can freeze and rewind time within the bubble, dilate internal time relative to external time, and (possibly) delete internal time King Crimson-style. That last one may actually be an extreme manifestation of her time dilation ability.
3. can manifest life out of nothing, or can animate inanimate objects like toys and paintings
4. can exert full psychic control over an entire town.

Outside the bubble, Wanda has shown spatial manipulation (just, kinda, vibed her way out of the Mirror Dimension), teleportaiton, telepathy (against trained magic users and psychics), matter manipulation ("what mouth?"), power stealing, and the ability to target objects across an infinite number of universes.

Even if we could equate whatever Wanda can do with Magic which is a dumb assertion to make given the actual mechanics and requirements for it and also the fact that stopping time is even possible outside AoG or Magic shit ( Kiritsugu could have used limited area timestop through his magic crest but it wasn't really worth it so he dropped it) , that would ultimately end up with the CF going apeshit and sending CG to deal with her.

So, it would ultimately add more trouble to Wanda than it is worth so...

Wanda's fuckery within her hex is isolated from the standard flow of time. It shouldn't trigger the CF...I don't think.

 

[Type-Rey]

Skimming posts and the wiki made it seem like the 5th and 2n were both related to time manipulation.

Its applications enter the domain of time manipulation but it is not time manipulation.

Same for the Second.

Like it was stated , we don't know what the full extent of the Fifth is because it is simply not explored enough yet.

Yeah. I thought that the Emiya magecraft was touching the edge of True Magic Kind of like how Sasaki's NP reaches into that realm.

It isn't.

On that particular scale, it's not even real RM level, even though it's similar to one.

I also thought anything BB did was basically >> any modern magecraft. So, even if her time manipulation didn't qualify as True Magic, it would be well beyond the protection provided by Magic Resistance.

BB specifically has the Authority to mess with time. Authorities are specific to each Divine Spirit because of their very nature and they're a little different from magecraft/magic.

MR doesn't cover Authorities but that\s irrelevant since Wanda's shit doesn't equate to an Authority in any way.

OK. Even if she's not on the level of True Magic, I still think her hexes are beyond any magecraft we have seen Artoria's Magic Resistance protect against.

Wanda's hex bubble is pretty comparable to a Reality Marble. A tangible area within normal space, but that internally is outside of normal space/time. Inside her bubble, Wanda:

1. can manipulate matter down to at least a molecular level (likely atomic)
2. controls the flow of time. She can freeze and rewind time within the bubble, dilate internal time relative to external time, and (possibly) delete internal time King Crimson-style. That last one may actually be an extreme manifestation of her time dilation ability.
3. can manifest life out of nothing, or can animate inanimate objects like toys and paintings
4. can exert full psychic control over an entire town.

Outside the bubble, Wanda has shown spatial manipulation (just, kinda, vibed her way out of the Mirror Dimension), teleportaiton, telepathy (against trained magic users and psychics), matter manipulation ("what mouth?"), power stealing, and the ability to target objects across an infinite number of universes.

That sounds impressive in theory but it doesn't really matter what kind of effects she can achieve if her magecraft level is crap. MR outright cancels the spell, it doesn't protect people like a magical barrier . So it doesn't matter what Wanda can do with her shit, it only matters if her magecraft/ magic (not Magic) can bypass Saber's MR skill check. which is up for a long debate which i don't wanna get into but i'll just say that Wanda's magic should have around 0 Mystery to it since she doesn't exactly try to hide it and people in her world know about it , that alone would make it weak enough not to mess with Saber in any way.

Wanda's fuckery within her hex is isolated from the standard flow of time. It shouldn't trigger the CF...I don't think.

You do realize that Servants get drafted by the CF from a space that functions outside of the time axis right ?

 

[Edward Nygma]

Wanda's magic should have around 0 Mystery to it since

I've never fully grasped how Mystery works. But, at the very least, I can say that Wanda's powers have serious mystery value relative to standard MCU magic. Wanda's magic comes from two arcane legends within MCU lore: the "Scarlet Witch/Chaos Magic" and the "Darkhold/Chithon".

Agnes, the only person shown to know Chaos Magic is a thing, literally calls the Scarlet Witch a myth:

"You're supposed to be a myth. A being capable of spontaneous creation. And here you are, using it to make breakfast for dinner. [...] This is Chaos Magic, Wanda. And that makes you the Scarlet Witch"

In MoM, Wanda's powers are amplified by the Darkhold. An artifact empowered by the demon Chithon. Literally, nothing is known about Cithon's powers. Whatever they may be, they are what allowed Wanda to reach across into alternate universes. Both to physically destroy an infinite number of objects and to take over her alternate self. (something that sounds kinda True Magic-y to my noob eyes)

she doesn't exactly try to hide it and people in her world know about it , that alone would make it weak enough not to mess with Saber in any way.

Just being known to the public can't cuck you that hard.

If it does, how on Earth is someone like Merlin a Grand Caster? Not to mention any Divine Spirits from known pantheons. How does Solomon have any mystery? He's a pivotal figure in two of the world's largest religions.

All people know about Wanda's power is that it's "magic". No mook on the street could even differentiate Strange's sorcery from Wanda's witchcraft (two, apparently, distinct forms of magecraft in the MCU). Nobody knows the exact origin or nature of her powers.

You do realize that Servants get drafted by the CF from a space that functions outside of the time axis right ?

Yeah. I just didn't think it would care about Wanda's fuckery as long as said fuckery wasn't affecting the normal flow of time.

 

[Type-Rey]

I've never fully grasped how Mystery works. But, at the very least, I can say that Wanda's powers have serious mystery value relative to standard MCU magic. Wanda's magic comes from two arcane legends within MCU lore: the "Scarlet Witch/Chaos Magic" and the "Darkhold/Chithon".

Agnes, the only person shown to know Chaos Magic is a thing, literally calls the Scarlet Witch a myth:

"You're supposed to be a myth. A being capable of spontaneous creation. And here you are, using it to make breakfast for dinner. [...] This is Chaos Magic, Wanda. And that makes you the Scarlet Witch"

In MoM, Wanda's powers are amplified by the Darkhold. An artifact empowered by the demon Chithon. Literally, nothing is known about Cithon's powers. Whatever they may be, they are what allowed Wanda to reach across into alternate universes. Both to physically destroy an infinite number of objects and to take over her alternate self. (something that sounds kinda True Magic-y to my noob eyes)

I don't know what any of this means so i can't comment on how it applies to Nasu mechanics.

Just being known to the public can't cuck you that hard.

Uhm... people nearly get heart attacks whenenver Waver is figuring out how their magecraft works . Why do they do that ? Because if people know how your magecraft system works, it looses its Mystery and it becomes useless.

If it does, how on Earth is someone like Merlin a Grand Caster? Not to mention any Divine Spirits from known pantheons. How does Solomon have any mystery? He's a pivotal figure in two of the world's largest religions.

Because the AoG and AoM function by different rules.

Yeah. I just didn't think it would care about Wanda's fuckery as long as said fuckery wasn't affecting the normal flow of time.

If you want to say Wanda's shit=Magic , then the CF would care by default, regardless of her intentions or actual effect in the world.

 

[Edward Nygma]

I don't know what any of this means so i can't comment on how it applies to Nasu mechanics.

tl;dr -- Almost nobody has even heard of, let alone knows the mechanics of, Wanda's magic. The one person who had heard of it thought it was a myth. The same goes for her zenkai book.

Uhm... people nearly get heart attacks whenenver Waver is figuring out how their magecraft works . Why do they do that ? Because if people know how your magecraft system works, it looses its Mystery and it becomes useless.

Like I said, even the most knowledgeable magic users know nothing about how Wanda's magic works.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

tl;dr -- Almost nobody has even heard of, let alone knows the mechanics of, Wanda's magic. The one person who had heard of it thought it was a myth. The same goes for her zenkai book.

Everything I heard about the Darkholme never boosted her power one iota. Yes, it contains powerful spells and such but it never explicitly boosted her power and when the copy was destroyed, she came off no weaker for it in the slightest.
And what do you mean no one knew? She was literally the prophecized being that will either rule the Multiverse or destroy it since Wanda-Vision. They literally created a statue of her in the main Darkholme realm for thousands of millennia.

Like I said, even the most knowledgeable magic users know nothing about how Wanda's magic works.

Again what? Everyone knew what Wanda was capable of just fine, you don't need to be told how something works to know how brutally effective they are. Again, almost everyone at the Sanctum knew Wanda was such a threat, they sent in their best all over the World to try and hold her off. That's the opposite of knowing how she works.

 

[Edward Nygma]

Everything I heard about the Darkholme never boosted her power one iota. Yes, it contains powerful spells and such but it never explicitly boosted her power and when the copy was destroyed, she came off no weaker for it in the slightest.
And what do you mean no one knew? She was literally the prophecized being that will either rule the Multiverse or destroy it since Wanda-Vision. They literally created a statue of her in the main Darkholme realm for thousands of millennia.



Again what? Everyone knew what Wanda was capable of just fine, you don't need to be told how something works to know how brutally effective they are. Again, almost everyone at the Sanctum knew Wanda was such a threat, they sent in their best all over the World to try and hold her off. That's the opposite of knowing how she works.

@Type-Rey said that a person's Mystery has to do with others' understanding of "how their magecraft works". Unless I am misunderstanding him, just knowing that someone has powerful magic isn't enough to neg their Mystery.

Nobody in the MCU understands the mechanics of Chaos Magic. Agatha is a 300-year-old witch, and she thought Chaos Magic was a myth.

I'm pretty sure the prophecy just said that the Scarlet Witch would be super powerful. You could say the same thing about any number of Heroic Spirits or modern magi without taking away from the Mystery of their power.

Also, just for the record, we don't see any kind of Darkhold dimension. There is a mural of Wanda on the Darkhold temple, but that is on 616 Earth. A) That is one dead cult, not the general public. B) Knowing that a hypothetical being maybe exists/will exist isn't the same as knowing how her magic works. I'd argue that a vague prophecy is exactly the kind of thing that would empower someone's Mystery.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

@Type-Rey said that a person's Mystery has to do with others' understanding of "how their magecraft works". Unless I am misunderstanding him, just knowing that someone has powerful magic isn't enough to neg their Mystery.

Um yeah? You ARE misunderstanding as understanding Magecraft at all undermines it's power, it doesn't need to be told, even having a decent understanding is more than enough to undermine it's power and weaken it.

Nobody in the MCU understands the mechanics of Chaos Magic. Agatha is a 300-year-old witch, and she thought Chaos Magic was a myth.

Not believe it exists =/= Not being able to understand it. It really seems like you legit don't understand the difference at all.

I'm pretty sure the prophecy just said that the Scarlet Witch would be super powerful. You could say the same thing about any number of Heroic Spirits or modern magi without taking away from the Mystery of their power.

That's not even the same thing considering Heroic Spirits DO get weakened if they are summoned in areas where they have zero influence from... but that would require them to virtually be in a different timeline where they never existed.
The problem with how you are framing Chaos Magic is that it SHOULD work because of what it is despite Age of the Gods-Tier Magecraft doesn't work on that same principle.

Also, just for the record, we don't see any kind of Darkhold dimension. There is a mural of Wanda on the Darkhold temple, but that is on 616 Earth. A) That is one dead cult, not the general public. B) Knowing that a hypothetical being maybe exists/will exist isn't the same as knowing how her magic works. I'd argue that a vague prophecy is exactly the kind of thing that would empower someone's Mystery.

No shit we don't see any kind of Darkholme dimension but we have seen the Sorceror Supreme know it exists and we know that a good amount of the Sorcerors even know what it is from across the world. That would weaken it severely considering Magecraft as a whole is far more secular in terms of the various family lines and the Foundations between each type being just as difficult to breach as the first.

 

[Edward Nygma]

Alright. It's pretty clear I'm not fully understanding the nature of Mystery (thematically appropriate, I guess) or how magic scales relative to the AoG and AoM. I'll look into that more.

Maybe @ChaosTheory123 can dumb it down for me. But, you know... (X) Doubt.

Only one other thing...

No shit we don't see any kind of Darkholme dimension

Don't get snippy with me about something you said. As you can plainly see, I have plenty of my own legitimate stupidity to account for. I don't need you making up more, thanks.

They literally created a statue of her in the main Darkholme realm for thousands of millennia.

There is no "Darkhold realm".

It's a mountain on 616 Earth. It's not even an alternate plane like the one in Shang-Chi. You could walk/hike there if you knew where to go.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

?

True Magic is basically just stuff that current human understandings of science in universe cannot replicate/understand through science as of yet. During the AoG there was a far greater number of “True Magic” powers as humanity lacked a fundamental understanding about the world at the time. The more humanity learns, the more likely further True Magic’s are to be reduced to regular magecraft in the future.

The power of Medea’s magecraft while she’s at Ryudo Temple is a magecraft that borders the realm of power occupied by True Magic. Dunno how Scarlet Witch compares and the like, but even EMIYA had sufficient MR and raw power to break out of Medea’s temple amplified space freezing magic.

The Kaleidoscope is multiverse theory and all it’s implications, Blue is more akin to Entropy than time manipulation. Heaven’s Feel is free manipulation of the soul. We know fuck all about True Magic’s 1 and 4. They’re also trying to reach a 6th in universe