Why To-Aru High Tiers should be Multiversal.

[Cryso Agori]

Fuck it. I was going to do this after I finished New Testament 9 but I'm super slow so I'm just going to do this now.

Why? Well, it's because @NostalgiaFan put an optimistic on my post.

As if he was saying I can't prove that Toaru is multiversal. Well, I take offense to this.

So, I’m gonna do it right now.

Also, this is gonna be my only post in this thread. Cause I know this is 100% gonna go to shit when the Jewaru bots appear. I'm not even gonna look at this till tomorrow so don't @ me here or anything got that?

Alright first, we going to need to know what multiversal level means.

Scaling within the OBD

Within the OBD we have a scaling system set up in order to determine what level a character can be at to make comparisons a lot easier for everyone involved. Currently, these are the tiers of power within our scaling system. These could potentially change in the future but for now this is what...

onelastforum.com

21. Multiverse Level: Destroy 2 or more universes at the same time. Universes can be any distance apart

Now to show proof I'll just debunk some arguments that people use to downplay To-Aru. Because I can't think of anything else.

1. Othinus only recreated and destroyed the universe over and over again, she did not destroy multiple universes at the same time.

Spoiler: My Answer

No, New Testament 9 very much debunks this.

“You…”

He spoke quietly in his hazy mind.

“You aren’t actually destroying anything.”

Othinus seemed surprised that he was only now realizing this.

“Call me a god. And what I have done is simple. I have created new filters and placed them over the world so the world appears to have changed. That is why the world appeared changed to you. This is a lot easier than destroying everything and building it back up every time. And your right hand contains the power to level out any foreign elements in the world, so it has difficulty functioning when I change the world itself. …Still, results are everything in the world. In the end, history will record it like this: the Magic God repeatedly destroyed the world and created new ones to make a single boy suffer as much as possible.”

Othinus explicitly did not destroy any of the phases she created and simply put new ones on top of old ones. "I have created new filters and placed them over the world so the world appears to have changed. That is why the world appeared changed to you. This is a lot easier than destroying everything and building it back up every time."

At the end of the novel, Othinus releasing Gungnir explicitly destroys all the phases.

As the lance was fired with tremendous force, the “happy world” was smashed to pieces as if space itself was being torn apart. As a fragment of the world approached with the force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.

Everything was ripped up.

The black labyrinth, which had used up all of its possibilities, showed itself.

Magic God Othinus had the ability to create, so she was technically not destroying anything. This may have been a change brought about by adding a new phase into the world. Nevertheless, it was blatantly obvious what the scene before Kamijou’s eyes would produce. It was the same as referring to the utter destruction of a luxurious palace as “creating a pile of rubble”. This was undeniably a torrent of destruction.

Since beforehand she hadn't been destroying any of the other previous phases, then that means they would've been destroyed by this attack.

And we know that she had created hundreds of billions of phases.

"But still," muttered fifteen centimeter Othinus. "Through all of those hundreds of billions of phases, I missed the Misaka Network that manipulated the border between life and death. Does he also contain the possibility to always show up or appear anew in every world or phase I created?"

While actually creating them all may have taken an indeterminate amount of time she did destroy them all at once with Gungnir.

2. Phases are layers of reality, not dimensions.

Spoiler: My Answer

Again obviously no, I don't blame anyone for believing this, Kamachi's weird-ass cellophane/glass examples made it seem like they were metaphysical layers. But they actually are dimensions.

From the very first volume Grimoires are said to have knowledge from different worlds.

“Grimoires are dangerous. Written in them are aberrant and uncommon knowledge as well as twisted laws that break the common laws of this world. Whether they’re for good or evil, those things are toxic in this world. Merely learning the knowledge of a ‘different world’ will destroy the brain of the one who learns it,” explained Index.

When Othinus explains phases, she says it contains the homes of the gods, stuff like Heaven and Olympus.

“This world was not pure and untouched to begin with. Christian, Buddhist, Celtic, Indian, Shinto, Incan, Aztec, Greek, Roman…and Norse. The various religions have placed layer after layer of various phases over the world like thin veils or filters. There is heaven, hell, the underworld, the Pure Land, Yomi, the abyss, Mount Olympus, the fairy island, Nirai Kanai, Asgard, and many others. At any rate, the world you have seen so far has been viewed through various colors of cellophane.”

They also exist in some sort of void where they can hit each other.

“This world contains as many phases as there are divine legends and religions. And the distance between each phase is not even. The rise and fall of civilizations and traditions affect the power balance in the real world. When you get down to it, fortune is the sparks that failed to become miracles. The spray produced by the contact and collision between phases has a shockingly thin but widespread influence on people. It affects coin tosses, the order at which dishes are served at a restaurant, meetings and partings, marriages and divorces…and even people’s deaths. If you see no direct cause for your daughter’s death, you should assume it is a spontaneous event caused by a gathering of the influence that so many people are unwittingly affected by.”

The gap between phases changed irregularly on a daily basis. There was nothing an individual could do about it. Even as the nations fought for supremacy and glared at each other across their borders, the world’s continents were slowly moving. Not even the greatest world powers could stop that movement. In that case, weren’t the conflicts on the surface trivial matters?

And we know that there are beings that live inside of these Phases. OT 4 has the Archangel Gabriel and angels.

Seeing that, goosebumps appeared on Kamijou. They couldn't talk to that angel called Power of God. Ever since Angel Fall occurred, perhaps she was like a train that had gone off track.

The angel had only one command to itself, and that was to return to heaven.

Following off what Tsuchimikado said, Kanzaki continued, “But this spell called Angel Fall is just as what the name implies, it can force an angel that’s in the heavens to become a human. And the human realm is like a cup full of water, if a drop of angel is to fall in—what will happen to the cup of water?”

And NT 10 has Marian Slingeneyer, who has the ability to summon mythological beings from phases.

Left on the ground, Othinus loudly clicked her tongue as she looked up at what happened over 100 meters above.

She understood what Marian Slingeneyer was doing, but there was nothing she could do for the boy. The restriction of losing her powers irritated her to no end.

(First, she seals off a limited portion of the world and then she chooses particular phases of different religions or sects and cuts through them.)

The giant that appeared first was one of the Titans that appeared as Zeus’s enemy in Greek mythology.

The beast that appeared second was the man-eating beast and god of death that destroyed the first humanity in Aztec mythology.

The demon king that appeared third was the leader of the giants that were said to burn away the nine worlds in Norse mythology.

(Heaven, Asgard, Mt. Olympus, the Pure Land, Nirai Kanai… Cutting away the homes of the gods removes the protection and blessings of those gods and thus releases the calamities being restrained by the gods. In a way, Marian is able to freely choose and wield the different “endings” told of in the world’s scriptures.)

The final clincher is NT 9 again.

As stated before the worlds Othinus creates are phases.

He saw countless worlds and experienced countless forms of despair.

Some clearly cornered Kamijou Touma and attempted to crush him. Strange false accusations were forced onto him and a noose was put around his neck. He was stranded on a mountain with some acquaintances and he was forced to distribute his flesh to the others so they could survive until rescue arrived. He was lying unable to move on a hospital bed and was simply stuck like that all the way to his funeral. He was buried in humus and began to decompose while still alive, starting with the ends of the arms and legs. Earth was rendered unlivable and he was thrown into outer space to wander aimlessly in a capsule-like spaceship. As a puny human, he was destroyed by a giant robot or an asteroid.

As seen in this quote they very much can contain physical things like people, cities, and even space.

So yeah Phases are dimensions and also layers of reality.

3. Phases are inside the universe. As such Othinus's feat is only universal.

Spoiler: My Answer

I did use to believe this but researching for the Genis-Vell thread I actually found evidence to the opposite.

To-Aru's world/setting is bigger than the physical universe in their cosmology.

For one Kamachi actually makes a distinction between the 'World' and 'Universe'. I contacted the Baka-Tsuki translator for Toaru, Js06 and this is what he said.

Whenever Kamachi brings up the universe it's usually in relation to the Big Bang.

In the New Testament volumes, it's made very explicit that the phases are distinct and exist outside the physical universe.

You checked the farthest reaches of the universe and all of the piled-up phases and you realized there was nothing new left.

Here a distinction is made between the universe and phases.

“This world contains as many phases as there are divine legends and religions. And the distance between each phase is not even. The rise and fall of civilizations and traditions affect the power balance in the real world. When you get down to it, fortune is the sparks that failed to become miracles. The spray produced by the contact and collision between phases has a shockingly thin but widespread influence on people. It affects coin tosses, the order at which dishes are served at a restaurant, meetings and partings, marriages and divorces…and even people’s deaths. If you see no direct cause for your daughter’s death, you should assume it is a spontaneous event caused by a gathering of the influence that so many people are unwittingly affected by.”

Once again, phases exist in some sort of void, and the sparks they create when they collide influence the physical universe.

“And the peak of that theory was Aiwass. That name doesn’t come from anywhere. It doesn’t belong to any religious category. …And this world is formed from the multiple magic side phases that have been placed on top of the physical laws.” She put her hands on her hips and looked to the mountain devilishness. “Aiwass is the angel of the bottommost layer…that is, of the world of pure physical laws. That is why he is Aleister’s greatest treasure. If he establishes a means of controlling Aiwass and uses that tremendous power to destroy all of the filters other than Aiwass, only a magicless world will remain.”

It is stated that religious phases exist above the Pure World.

The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about.

Here the world is stated to be bigger than the universe.

“This is not thy place, but I forbid thee to depart!! I shall now intentionally enact a failed exorcism. Great Demon Coronzon, return to thy rightful world while thy power is torn into the almighty number of 11!!”

Magician Aleister Crowley really did seem to be coughing up blood as she yelled the words.
If you thought of a summoning circle like a warp gate from cheap science fiction, then what would happen if you threw someone into a malfunctioning gate and entered the coordinates using a staticky signal? The power to forcibly send her back between phases would slice Coronzon apart like a wire through a hardboiled egg.

“Oh!”

Fearsome sparks exploded out.

And not figuratively. An orange light really did scatter all around her.

Here it is stated that there are spaces between phases.

“Grimoires are dangerous. Written in them are aberrant and uncommon knowledge as well as twisted laws that break the common laws of this world. Whether they’re for good or evil, those things are toxic in this world. Merely learning the knowledge of a ‘different world’ will destroy the brain of the one who learns it,” explained Index.

Again from the first volume. Grimoires are knowledge from different worlds.

That sword was an extreme spiritual item that fully unified the three factions and four
regions of the United Kingdom and that could draw on a portion of Archangel Michael's
power while on UK land.

If a qualified user released that power even for a moment, a swing of the sword would sever all dimensions at once and giant ruined materials would be created along the line of the slash.

Yes, all dimensions.

Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase…for example, Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom.

And here again, it's stated that phases are 'different worlds'.

So phases do not actually exist inside the physical universe, but outside of it. And then there's the Hidden World which doesn't exist.

4. Phases do not = universes.

Spoiler: My Answer

This actually somewhat true, we have no idea how big the religious phases are, we do know however how big the phases Othinus creates are.

“Kamijou Touma” sat in shock in the very corner desk of the classroom lit by orange light. His arms and legs hung limply down and his eyes blankly viewed Othinus’s slightly altered world.

For one Othinus's universes are said to be only slightly altered.

Earth was rendered unlivable and he was thrown into outer space to wander aimlessly in a capsule-like spaceship. As a puny human, he was destroyed by a giant robot or an asteroid.

Space and celestial phenomena like asteroids exist.

The stars glittering in the sky above suggested it was night, but the scenery past the broken wall seemed oddly bright. A faint orange light seemed to shine from beyond the horizon.

The sun had completely set and stars twinkled in the sky.

The twinkling of the stars in the sky was an ominous ill omen.

Each and every one of them transformed into a sharp spear of light and poured down like rain.

Stars and the sun exist in these worlds.

Magic God Othinus could control everything. Without exaggeration, she controlled the world itself. If she wanted to, she could have galaxies collide to kill Kamijou Touma. Or she could break the bonds between the particles making up his body and cause his very existence to disperse. If she was the slightest bit dissatisfied with something, she could turn back time, re-lay the rails of fate that led to the future, and create the exact result she wanted.

Galaxies, matter, time, and even fate exist in these worlds.

“Like I said, it seems Othinus has free control over the life and death of humans, but I think she has two distinct pieces of software, one for the living and one for the dead /return. Like a god, I guess /escape? Like a heavenly world and a human world /escape? Like heaven and hell /escape? It might be based in a religious concept I don’t really understand /return.”

Even things like heaven and hell exist in Othinus's world.

So yeah, Othinus's phases are explicitly copies of the universe.

5. To-Aru is a trash series, stop talking about it.

Spoiler: My Answer

No.

TL:DR: Toaru's setting is bigger than its universe. Phases exist outside the physical universe, Othinus destroyed the actual universe+countless phases, then created hundreds of billions of phases that are copies of the universe after an indeterminate amount of time, and then destroyed them all at once with Gungnir.

Should be multiversal.

 

[Blade]

nos was correct

but from me, what do you want? the same rating or a neg barrage for the official obd badge? don't ruin your decent mini effort of those weeks with threads like these

 

[Dead Lock]

Banworld population: 3.

I'm sorry, but your rep must go with you. You we're doing so well too, but your taste is just so ass.

 

[Papa Nier]

Yoko Taroverse is multiversal

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Yeah, this isn't a grand idea to do this and do it because Nos gave you an Optimistic rating of all things... he does that to anyone and anything he doesn't agree or see eye to eye on.

I'll put this for perspective on why I don't think To Aru is anything higher than Universal+:
1. Kamachi stated that there is only ONE Universe for To Aru. Unless we get any proof that there are legit more Universes for To Aru and many others, no matter how huge it is, it's just ONE Universe. We do this same thing for Dragonball even when we say proof that the Dragonball's Universe is far bigger than our Observable Universe and includes the Afterlife which is just as big.

2. For example with the Nasuverse as we all know they get compared here and in some other places but the Nasuverse has 2 major advantages over To Aru:
A) It actually long since established it's concept of multiple timelines and layered Worlds for years(Even with the "limitation" of not having truly infinite timelines, it basically has Infinite Timelines). Not only has Kamachi only really touched this subject awhile ago, it's hidden behind various "Phases" which can easily throw people for a loop because it's never just stated outright on what they are, what their limits are or fully explained in any real fashion. So you end up people just placing phases as "whatever the author goes with it"
B) The Nasuverse explicitly has multiple different Universes and it was 100% confirmed as such even as early as Fate/Extra to many of their standings of the mainline titles being their own Universes to even random things we've seen in FGO belong in their own Universes(The Machine Gods came from a different Universe, The Servantverse is in it's own separate Universe as well as the GudaGuda characters).
Again, Kamachi stating there's only one Universe but then trying to "backtrack" with Phases just comes off as if he realized what he said was dumb but is also too prideful to just realize he screwed up and just admit a do-over. It also shows he's not confident in his setting at all and basically going deep for the sake of it rather than have his world make sense.

 

[Masterblack06]

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Basically, we STILL haven't accepted Solar System Super Perfect Cell precisely because there's nothing showing that Cell or anything else in that standing can destroy the Solar System outside of non-canon videogames and databooks that just say so.
That's how we operate, it's not some bias against To Aru as you think it is.
If there's genuine proof of Multiversal To Aru, people would ultimately accept it despite the bias, people have done it with series they hate far more or see as a bigger joke for less.

 

[Cryso Agori]

nos was correct

but from me, what do you want? the same rating or a neg barrage for the official obd badge? don't ruin your decent mini effort of those weeks with threads like these

Banworld population: 3.

I'm sorry, but your rep must go with you. You we're doing so well too, but your taste is just so ass.

I have no regrets.

If there's genuine proof of Multiversal To Aru, people would ultimately accept it despite the bias, people have done it with series they hate far more or see as a bigger joke for less.

Eh fine, I tried at least.

 

[Paxton]

Yeah, this isn't a grand idea to do this and do it because Nos gave you an Optimistic rating of all things... he does that to anyone and anything he doesn't agree or see eye to eye on.

I'll put this for perspective on why I don't think To Aru is anything higher than Universal+:
1. Kamachi stated that there is only ONE Universe for To Aru. Unless we get any proof that there are legit more Universes for To Aru and many others, no matter how huge it is, it's just ONE Universe. We do this same thing for Dragonball even when we say proof that the Dragonball's Universe is far bigger than our Observable Universe and includes the Afterlife which is just as big.

2. For example with the Nasuverse as we all know they get compared here and in some other places but the Nasuverse has 2 major advantages over To Aru:
A) It actually long since established it's concept of multiple timelines and layered Worlds for years(Even with the "limitation" of not having truly infinite timelines, it basically has Infinite Timelines). Not only has Kamachi only really touched this subject awhile ago, it's hidden behind various "Phases" which can easily throw people for a loop because it's never just stated outright on what they are, what their limits are or fully explained in any real fashion. So you end up people just placing phases as "whatever the author goes with it"
B) The Nasuverse explicitly has multiple different Universes and it was 100% confirmed as such even as early as Fate/Extra to many of their standings of the mainline titles being their own Universes to even random things we've seen in FGO belong in their own Universes(The Machine Gods came from a different Universe, The Servantverse is in it's own separate Universe as well as the GudaGuda characters).
Again, Kamachi stating there's only one Universe but then trying to "backtrack" with Phases just comes off as if he realized what he said was dumb but is also too prideful to just realize he screwed up and just admit a do-over. It also shows he's not confident in his setting at all and basically going deep for the sake of it rather than have his world make sense.

Eh... I disagree on that last part. I'm 99% sure that the statement of only one "universe" existing took place AFTER Phases were already introduced as a concept. He didn't really "backtrack" on anything.

 

[Cryso Agori]

Eh... I disagree on that last part. I'm 99% sure that the statement of only one "universe" existing took place AFTER Phases were already introduced as a concept. He didn't really "backtrack" on anything

Yeah this is true. Phases we’re introduced all the way back in OT, there being only one universe was introduced in NT 12.

 

[Cryso Agori]

@Masterblack06 you can lock the thread if you want.

 

[Paxton]

There's also Marvel and DC characters being above universal+ due to how universes work there with all the stacked up dimensions, but I'm not too familiar with how that works. So I don't see why To Aru would be an exception in that case.

But regardless, let's chill until the respect thread gets more up-to-date.

 

[Paxton]

Yeah this is true. Phases we’re introduced all the way back in OT, there being only one universe was introduced in NT 12.

Pretty sure Phase beings >>> the physical universe was also confirmed before that. (NT10? Dainsleif information.)

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Well either way, it would still just be Universal+ until we get any real proof that it can be used to go Multiversal
Besides be proud, To Aru is still stronger than most series, if it stays Universal+, it would still beat plenty of series.

 

[Paxton]

Well either way, it would still just be Universal+ until we get any real proof that it can be used to go Multiversal
Besides be proud, To Aru is still stronger than most series, if it stays Universal+, it would still beat plenty of series.

Nasuland included?

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Nasuland included?

Yeah, you act like I'm like a SB'er that can't handle a series I'm not fond of beating a series I am fond of.
Besides, I'm a bigger Bleach fan than a Nasuverse fan and how many series murders that in it's crib?

 

[Paxton]

Yeah, you act like I'm like a SB'er that can't handle a series I'm not fond of beating a series I am fond of.
Besides, I'm a bigger Bleach fan than a Nasuverse fan and how many series murders that in it's crib?

I know, I'm just messing with you.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

I know, I'm just messing with you.

Nah it's cool, it's nice shooting the shit at times. Unwind a bit.

 

[Flowering Knight]

 

[OtherGalaxy]

Eh... I disagree on that last part. I'm 99% sure that the statement of only one "universe" existing took place AFTER Phases were already introduced as a concept. He didn't really "backtrack" on anything.

not commenting on the subject itself but this doesn't necessarily shoot down anything higher if the cosmology allows for it

there have been things like marvel writers saying the omniverse is just infinite universes (believe Al Ewing said this once) when we know it's significantly more than that. Transformers is largely portrayed as a single multiverse even though there's consistently been material (obscure, but it's there) that makes it out to be a lot more.

So Kamachi just saying it's just one universe while simultaneously including a bunch of other weird shit, it's possible for ToAru to be stronger by obd standards, if said weird shit meets the requirements