Shin Megami Tensei vs toaru

[Masterblack06]

Shin Megami Tensei IV Apocalypse introduces an entity known as Great Reason, localized as Axiom, who happens to share a fair number of characteristics with the Great Will from previous games, including the use of YHVH as an avatar. However, due to a lack of detailed information as well as conflicting behaviors, it is currently impossible to ascertain if the Great Will and the Great Reason are two names for the same being, or two distinct entities with similar influence over the Megami Tensei Multiverse.

 

[Paxton]

He is literally an extension of The Great Will, he is not The Great Will itself. This is something fans knew about for decades, try again.



Again as I stated before and stated before this, Yaldabaoth, Kagutsuchi, God Of Light are all extensions of YHVH's influence which in turn is an extension of The Great Will.

This is well known with the franchise:

Shin Megami Tensei — YHVH - TV Tropes

YHVHWarning: As a major recurring figure throughout the series, there will be spoilers for multiple games. You have been warned. The most recurring entity among agents of the Great Will, YHVH is the Abrahamic God. However, he is far from the …

tvtropes.org

We also know that something happened that basically fucked up YHVH and ONLY Him despite that with the fabric of reality warping Him into that.
So yeah, maybe you are just wrong?

Kagatsuchi never says it's an extension of YHVH, it says its an extension of the Great Will.

 

[Paxton]

Reason and Will is literally the same thing in SMT, dingus.
There is no different set of beings, you are literally deciding that based on nothing.
There is The Great Will which only has one other name in that Stephen calls The Axiom, there is no other different name for the being.

Then why aren't the raws being pulled up to compare the two if you're so certain?

 

[Paxton]

Not the first time he gets shit wrong about SMT, like trying to imply Persona matches the higher tiers of it, and certainly not going to be the last if this is his understanding of it now.

And I've changed my mind about that, so what's your point?

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

My brother in Christ we are literally in agreement.

At this point, you are literally backstepping so hard, you are basically going to trip and fall onto yourself.
We are not in any agreement dumbass and your next post proved it:

"Do you mean the other way around? Because I never said the Great Will is an extension of YHVH, I said the exact opposite."

Nigga, you literally tried to state that The Great Will is evil because YHVH is evil due to shit that happened with the fabric of reality.

NF asked me where I got YHVH being an avatar of the Great Will from.... even though we seem to be in agreement?

You didn't say that at all, not in the slightest...

Kagatsuchi never says it's an extension of YHVH, it says its an extension of the Great Will.

And who is also an extension of The Great Will and who Lucifer sends the Demi-Fiend against in the True Ending? YHVH. It was also confirmed in the post materials of Nocturne that Kagutsuchi is explicitly an extension of YHVH:

All There in the Manual: The fact that he is actually a name and a manifestation for YHVH in this game is only clarified by Kaneko in the artbook.

Then why aren't the raws being pulled up to compare the two if you're so certain?

Again, do you have any proof on your basis because you keep not proving yourself at all.

And I've changed my mind about that, so what's your point?

This is why you have no credibility here, no, you have negative credibility.

 

[Paxton]

This is more obvious when he admitted he played Nocturne and then get something extremely simple about Nocturne wrong.

What did I get wrong about Nocturne, exactly?

 

[NostalgiaFan]

@Masterblack06 Got any page you got that from? even so if it never has been collaborated outside of Apocalypse that does not help since that game was rife with errors in the lore as well as the fact the page itself stated it is contradicting and not mentioned if they are different beings, so I am doubtful that changes anything.

 

[NostalgiaFan]

And I've changed my mind about that, so what's your point?

You're a slow learner Pax.

 

[Paxton]

At this point, you are literally backstepping so hard, you are basically going to trip and fall onto yourself.
We are not in any agreement dumbass and your next post proved it:



Nigga, you literally tried to state that The Great Will is evil because YHVH is evil due to shit that happened with the fabric of reality.



You didn't say that at all, not in the slightest...



And who is also an extension of The Great Will and who Lucifer sends the Demi-Fiend against in the True Ending? YHVH. It was also confirmed in the post materials of Nocturne that Kagutsuchi is explicitly an extension of YHVH:





Again, do you have any proof on your basis because you keep not proving yourself at all.



This is why you have no credibility here, no, you have negative credibility.

And where is the scan in question where something specifically happened to YHVH to make him an evil asshole?

If you're not going to pull up the raws to compare the two when I ask you to prove they say the same thing in Japanese that's you just ignoring my request for evidence.

If you say so.

 

[Paxton]

@Masterblack06 Got any page you got that from? even so if it never has been collaborated outside of Apocalypse that does not help since that game was rife with errors in the lore as well as the fact the page itself stated it is contradicting and not mentioned if they are different beings, so I am doubtful that changes anything.

Modern Atlus tends to make a lot of mistakes, yes.

 

[Paxton]

You're a slow learner Pax.

I changed my mind roughly the week or so after that discussion after further inspection of what I was saying, but I guess slow is subjective.

But either way this is a tangent and not really relevant to the discussion of the thread.

 

[NostalgiaFan]

Modern Atlus tends to make a lot of mistakes, yes.

So therefore it makes it even less likely the Great Will and Reason are any different and therefore less likely to retcon older titles.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

At this point, I'm just done with you.
You are genuinely no different than everything you complain that SB gets shit wrong with To Aru on right to the level of dead ass lying about To Aru just to win a fucking argument, again making the series look like absolute aids in the process.

You still haven't proved a single thing you preached and all I got out of this is a headache. You lucky I can't neg you any harder than I could normally but I will go to Nihilus and MB for explicitly ignoring the very rules I know you saw and even liked the post on.

 

[NostalgiaFan]

I changed my mind roughly the week or so after that discussion after further inspection of what I was saying, but I guess slow is subjective.

But either way this is a tangent and not really relevant to the discussion of the thread.

You still struggle to get the basics on YHVH in this very thread. Slow ain't subjective here.

 

[Paxton]

You still struggle to get the basics on YHVH in this very thread. Slow ain't subjective here.

What exactly did I get incorrect?

 

[Paxton]

So therefore it makes it even less likely the Great Will and Reason are any different and therefore less likely to retcon older titles.

If there's no concrete answer that they're the same or different then neither side is going to get anywhere besides speculation.

 

[Paxton]

At this point, I'm just done with you.
You are genuinely no different than everything you complain that SB gets shit wrong with To Aru on right to the level of dead ass lying about To Aru just to win a fucking argument, again making the series look like absolute aids in the process.

You still haven't proved a single thing you preached and all I got out of this is a headache. You lucky I can't neg you any harder than I could normally but I will go to Nihilus and MB for explicitly ignoring the very rules I know you saw and even liked the post on.

This is about the 5th time you've said I lied about To Aru (a series you haven't even bothered to try to understand) yet that has never been the case.


I said Othinus inspired the Norse myth, yes.
I said the others didn't inspire their respective myths, yes.

What are you talking about?

 

[NostalgiaFan]

What exactly did I get incorrect?

Saying that the Great Will and Reason must be different good and bad entities because YHVH is bad therefore The Great Will is? Despite the fact YHVH being malevolent has nothing to do with being an extension of the Great Will and more to do with something gone wrong that messed him up?

 

[Paxton]

Saying that the Great Will and Reason must be different good and bad entities because YHVH is bad therefore The Great Will is? Despite the fact YHVH being malevolent has nothing to do with being an extension of the Great Will and more to do with something gone wrong that messed him up?

Again, what scan or statement is being referred to?

 

[NostalgiaFan]

If there's no concrete answer that they're the same or different then neither side is going to get anywhere besides speculation.

We already got the answer back in the port, You have provided zero reason to say that is wrong outside of the vague hint of the Great Reason being different which has no direct statement unlike the Last Bible Port which is never said to be wrong ever.