OBD Convo #45: Roll For Initiative

Doronbo_Shirake said:

Oh! Speaking of Digimon and Black holes, they have Vademon attack potency at least Star level because of this reasons:
-Capable of destroying stars[1],
-shouldn't be any weaker than DarkSuperstarmon and Gerbemon who uses supernova explosion[2] and real black holes[3] as attacks[4])

They said real, while the source says "rumored to be black holes":

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Possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (Possibly comparable to SkullGreymon and Megadramon who can destroy the Digital World, Paildramon who stopped an explosion that could've destroy the Digital World, Dagomon who can swallow all dimensions in its deep fog, Etemon Chaos who could warp the Digital World, Canoweissmon whose light can reach Digital Worlds of other dimensions and AtlurKabuterimon who destroyed Vademon's mysterious universe. Shouldn't be weaker than Angemon amped by Power of Hope who destroyed WaruMonzaemon's Inner World and Devimon who could make everything in the Digital World dwell into darkness)

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Adamant soul said:

Not sure but I HAVE encountered people who have claimed universal Vademon because his dimension is referred to one. And more recently on FV we have people trying to scale multiversal Holy Beast shit to the Dark Masters, WarGreymon, MetalGarurumon etc.

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Gig said:

The Dark Masters did defeat the Holy Beasts, in the novel and the anime (off screen) but I'm highly doubtful the holy beasts are Universal / multiversal, in the novel each Dark Master defeated a single holy beast solo.

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Gig said:

In the Novel Piedmon was shown sealing a subjugated Azulongmon after Devimon's defeat and hadn't finished until after Vamdemon's invasion of earth so it took him years to complete the sealing ritual.

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Adamant soul said:

The Holy Beasts literally maintain and hold the digital world together and in Tamers, they created universes (layers) within the digital world for themselves to inhabit. So nah they definitely are universal - multiversal. That's pretty consistent for them.

The issue is the one time we actually SEE the Dark Masters fight them straight up (ie Tri), the Holy Beasts easily won. Not to mention BlackWarGreymon (who is > Dark Masters given his fight with HolyAngemon) got lolnoped by a single MASSIVELY WEAKENED Holy Beast in Qinglongmon.

The Holy Beasts are MUCH stronger than the Dark Masters by direct feats.

Same novel also establishes that Apocalymon was already influencing shit at this point, so most likely it was HIS influence that weakened the Holy beasts enough to be sealed by the Dark Masters in a similar manner to the Dark Towers but even more so.

However you look at it, the Dark Masters beating the Holy Beasts straight up doesn't add up, especially when it takes all four of them to do something less impressive than what individual Holy Beasts can do easily.

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Qinglong said:

The Dark Masters offscreening the Shijin isn't really a problem, especially since we know Apocylamon was helping in some way

the problem is people on NF trying to use that to claim wargreymon is multiversal for being stronger than the Dark Masters when we see his virtual equal try to take on a weakened one and gets punked

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The Dark Masters, plotting to take over the digital world, got their eye on the Book of Revelations and used it to set up an evil plot, using Nanomon to create a program that would form Spiral Mountain. While that program was being created, the four of them attacked the Four Holy Beasts to seal them away. It is surmised that Apocalymon sent the Dark Masters its "concept" across the Wall of Fire, because the Dark Masters' plan, without them realizing it, would utterly destroy the Village of Beginnings' function. In other words, creating Spiral Mountain stole the concept of "evolution" from the digital world. Unconsciously, the Dark Masters were manipulated by Apocalymon into rejecting the idea of evolution.

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Doronbo_Shirake said:

Speaking of Tamers. Is D-Reaper multiverse level?

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Doronbo_Shirake said:

And I guess that Adventure Omegamon is not Multiverse level.

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Doronbo_Shirake said:

In the novels it's mentioned that the Dark Masters stole power from Apocalymon to seal the Holy Beasts.

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Adamant soul said:

The Holy Beasts literally maintain and hold the digital world together and in Tamers, they created universes (layers) within the digital world for themselves to inhabit. So nah they definitely are universal - multiversal. That's pretty consistent for them.

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Adamant soul said:

The issue is the one time we actually SEE the Dark Masters fight them straight up (ie Tri), the Holy Beasts easily won. Not to mention BlackWarGreymon (who is > Dark Masters given his fight with HolyAngemon) got lolnoped by a single MASSIVELY WEAKENED Holy Beast in Qinglongmon.

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Adamant soul said:

The Holy Beasts are MUCH stronger than the Dark Masters by direct feats.

Same novel also establishes that Apocalymon was already influencing shit at this point, so most likely it was HIS influence that weakened the Holy beasts enough to be sealed by the Dark Masters in a similar manner to the Dark Towers but even more so.

However you look at it, the Dark Masters beating the Holy Beasts straight up doesn't add up, especially when it takes all four of them to do something less impressive than what individual Holy Beasts can do easily.

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Spoiler: Adventure Novel Nanomon fucks with cosmic forces

The alarms clanged noisily, but Nanomon wasn’t paying attention. The “Wall of Fire” security system was much more interesting to him. His intent to outwit it so far had all been anticipated and blocked. At this rate, even if he did open up the “Wall of Fire,” it would only last for an instant.
PIECE OF SHIT!
The machine monster spat out a dirty word.
TAKE THIS!
Nanomon pushed the turn key that could make or break the outcome.
-
Ever since the universe was made, the “Wall of Fire” that had never paused blowing out an incessant stream of red-hot flames and corona… now changed into a black hole for a fraction of a second.
Fwoooooohhhh.
The voice that could be heard on the other end of hole sounded as if the anger, hatred, and resentment that swirled throughout the entire universe had been gathered up and put into a large cauldron that one whole Milky Way could easily fit into, then left to simmer for millions and millions of years until it became a concentrated jellied mass — that sort of voice.
The “Wall of Fire” function was only down for an instant, but apparently that was more than enough.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
It was a loud laugh, seeped with eerieness and apathy.
-
That laugh went through the “Wall of Fire” system and reached Nanomon’s computer.
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
Hearing that voice coming from the monitor, Sora felt sharp chills running through her spine.
“…Wh–Who’s voice is that?”
That voice wasn’t the only thing that was wrong with the computer. All processes it was running were forcibly ended, and the monitor turned pitch-black. In its place loaded a program that Nanomon didn’t remember creating — a strange polyhedron-shape covered with metal chains shaped like a DNA helix spinning around that showed up on the monitor — and it began to run.
WH–WHAT’S GOING ON?
Nanomon didn’t appear to know the answer to Sora’s question either, because he began frantically inspecting the computer cables.
It was then that, with a tremendous force that crumbled the wall down, MetalGreymon’s head came crashing through.
“We’re here to save you, Sora!”
Taichi jumped out from within MetalGreymon’s metal left hand and ran towards her.
-
Nanomon was putting all of his concentration in restoring the computer that had gone haywire, so he had his back turned when Taichi arrived to save Sora.
Taichi saw the cuffs on Sora’s wrists and exchanged looks with MetalGreymon. Thudding as he walked, MetalGreymon only slightly grazed a pointy steel claw from his left hand onto the chains, cutting them apart.
“Hi,” Taichi said as Sora rubbed her wrists. “Uh, well… we made it to Perfect level. MetalGreymon.”
He felt that there were a ton of other things that should be said, but at the moment, those were the only words that Taichi could muster up to express his gratitude towards Sora.
However, there wasn’t time to add more.
“Ukikikikiki!”
Thanks to the halt on the pyramid’s security system, Etemon came flying in easily.
“The children are here, and so is Nanomon. Now, who should I start with first…”
Etemon spoke as way of a threat, but Nanomon didn’t even notice that he had arrived. Seeming to mistake that Nanomon was making fun of him, Etemon cried out, “Kiii, I’ll start with you!”
The moment he grabbed Nanomon from behind, it happened.
A double helix of chains shot out from within the computer screen and wrapped around Nanomon and Etemon, dragging them both back through the monitor.
“Wh–What happened?”
Both Taichi and Sora could only look on with wide eyes at the emptiness where the Digimon had been, unable to comprehend themselves what had happened.
Just then, the monitor started crumpling into itself, as if an invisible person was hitting it with all their strength with an invisible hammer. Before long, the computer was crushed down by that unseeable superhuman strength. From that spot where the computer had once been floated a silently large jet black sphere.
“Wh–What is that?” Taichi said, not expecting an answer, but Sora’s lip quivered, a look of disbelief on her face.
“I–It could be…”
“It could be what?” Taichi asked her.
“A black hole,” Sora ended weakly, her face white.
“Black hole?”
A wind suddenly blew. It was quiet at first, and then accelerated stronger and more violently. What’s more, it wasn’t blowing from somewhere but trying to suck in. Just like how it had sucked the computer, Etemon, and Nanomon into the small, black sphere.
“We gotta get out of here!” Sora cried out. Her voice was close to a desperate scream.
-
The entire pyramid looked warped, as if it was being seen through a convex lens. Jou blinked his eyes rapidly, thinking that it was due to heat haze. Just then, one of the pyramid’s walls exploded from the inside and he saw the giant cyborg dinosaur that had jumped into the pyramid earlier come out from the fumes.
“It’s Taichi! And Sora-kun!”
Just as Jou said, Taichi and Sora were riding on the cyborg dinosaur’s shoulders. The two of them appeared to be shouting something at them. Behind them, the fumes of the explosion looked as if they were being sucked in by a ventilation fan because they were being pulled into the pyramid. The inner side of the pyramid began to cave inwards.
“Wh–What’s going on?!”
Paralyzed with horror as they stood in the desert, Yamato and the others watched in confusion as the pyramid disintegrated from within. MetalGreymon landed lightly next to them.
“We’re in big trouble! It’s a black hole!”
Yamato still didn’t seem to get it because he said dazedly, “A black hole… What the heck did you guys do?”
But Koushiro quickly understood that now was not the time for questions and said, “For the time being, let’s get as far away from here as we can, before we end up getting dragged in as well. I’m… not sure how far we should run to be considered safe, but…”
“To the bunker,” Taichi ordered without delay. “Takeru is with a Digimon called Piccolomon. He’ll make a barrier for us that’ll protect us.”
None of the others understood what he meant, but Taichi’s voice and expression were so full of conviction that they all obeyed him immediately.
“Anyway, let’s go!”
None of them dared to look back. If they did, they just might die because of it. Once they got sucked into that black hole, they were done for.
After some time, the crunching sounds of the pyramid breaking down stopped completely. It must not have been big enough to fill the black hole’s bottomless stomach.
The military bunker was almost within reach. Having arrived ahead with MetalGreymon, both Taichi and Sora waved their arms furiously, urging the others to hurry up.
Suddenly a shadow fell around Yamato and the others. There hadn’t been a cloud in the sky earlier, so why?
Taichi called for MetalGreymon, who lent his shoulder for Taichi to ride on. With a grim, determined look on his face, MetalGreymon spread his wings and took off with one mighty flap like a Harrier jet.
The sound of something crashing with something else was heard above the skies.
That was when Yamato and the others heard the first “Ukiiiiii!” and learned that Etemon, having made a miraculous escape from death in the black hole, had been chasing them above their heads.

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Gig said:

Digimon in different franchises can varies allot in power, Huanglongmon is literally Dorbickmon's mount in Xros wars yet he's supposed to be stronger than all four sovereigns combined.

I Personally don't directly cross feats from one franchise to another, if Agumon in Adventure can blow up a mountain and Agumon in savers never showed that ability I don't assume the later can reform the formers feat (This feat is made up and used as an egregious example)

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Gig said:

I mean you're not wrong, but they did ultimately win somehow it just doesn't make sense based on everything we see.

I don't think Blackwargreymon is strictly stronger, physically yes but overall power I disagree, based on the affect the gate had on both of them Blackwargreymon was actually being pulled towards it, while Piedmon was completely unaffected by it until he was knocked into it.

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Gig said:

I mean before I read the novel I just assumed they defeated them 4 v 1 one at a time and for reason they couldn't help each other, but in the novel they straight up all won 1 v 1, it is possible Apocalymon made them weaker with his spatial distortions.

The novel does state that it took the Dark Masters centuries to eventually win, we just will never know how they achieved it.

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