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Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 4 Part 2: Electric Boogaloo

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SupremeZaarin

Illustrious

Jedi frequently are matched by or lose to peak humans like Cad Bane.
This happens so frequently that it isn't a writing issue. In fact, it's a key plot point of many arcs, mini-arcs, or even entire plot lines that Jedi can be matched by peak humans.

Peak humans in Star Wars are radically different from IRL peak humans. People like Cad Bane can contend with Jedi doesn't diminish the Jedi's capabilities but it rather goes to show that people like Cad Bane are far above any IRL peak human.

The Emperor's Royal Guard are trained to the point where they can deflect blaster bolts. Cybernetic augmentation, as seen in Grievous, advanced enough to compete with Jedi. Biology that is sufficiently potent to compete with Jedi such as Durge. The fact that non-Force sensitives can compete with Force sensitives doesn't diminish the power of the Jedi or the Sith.
 

OtherGalaxy

ยสี่สี่สี่สี่สี่สี่สี่สี่ สี่สี
V.I.P. Member

lmao was out all day but em beating the brakes off jack is great. of all comic oldheads you could pick for the downplay train this was the worst possible dude
 

lmao was out all day but em beating the brakes off jack is great. of all comic oldheads you could pick for the downplay train this was the worst possible dude

I still wonder how people get Stan Lee's video on why asking authors who would win fights still get that shit wrong?
It's not anything about Powerscaling and if anything, Stan Lee even agrees with it, it's just that asking authors who would win fights is stupid because an author can make any character win a fight based on how much sense it would make.

It has nothing to do with powerscaling.

Otherwise, the thread is basically FEP and FEP's alternate account saying some real dumb shit.
 

Atem

King of Games
V.I.P. Member




Peak humans in Star Wars are radically different from IRL peak humans. People like Cad Bane can contend with Jedi doesn't diminish the Jedi's capabilities but it rather goes to show that people like Cad Bane are far above any IRL peak human.

The Emperor's Royal Guard are trained to the point where they can deflect blaster bolts. Cybernetic augmentation, as seen in Grievous, advanced enough to compete with Jedi. Biology that is sufficiently potent to compete with Jedi such as Durge. The fact that non-Force sensitives can compete with Force sensitives doesn't diminish the power of the Jedi or the Sith.

This is Spacebattles and Reddits favorite argument against them. The notion that these characters might also be superhuman for fighting Jedi or Sith? That it makes them this dangerous or powerful? It flies completely over their heads, or rather they prefer to spin it the other way around as an "anti-feat" or whatever.

They always use real life as the benchmark whenever anyone isn't directly stated to have superpowers.
 
This is Spacebattles and Reddits favorite argument against them. The notion that these characters might also be superhuman for fighting Jedi or Sith? That it makes them this dangerous or powerful? It flies completely over their heads, or rather they prefer to spin it the other way around as an "anti-feat" or whatever.

They always use real life as the benchmark whenever anyone isn't directly stated to have superpowers.

It's why I tend to laugh at anyone who says that shit outright... but it's sadly also a major flaw from Live Action/OT Star Wars fans who also tend to pull that shit something fierce, especially to keep their take of canon straight(See how it tends to be THE typical argument when it comes to either The Prequels, The EU or The Sequels and it's EU especially).

It never ceases to amaze that OT fans tend to basically show they have no idea of Lucas' vision when they legit believe that The Force was always limited hardcore to simple spiritual shit when Lucas was being literal in that The Force makes the Death Star look like shit :risigif . These ARE the same people who then believe that Rogue One fixes the issue with The Death Star when the Dorkly Sketch literally makes the point far better without making The Empire look retarded because unironically, Dorkly got Star Wars infinitely more than Disney and most OT fans:
 

Unless we assume Ciel's anti regen technique works on Mahoraga(and that she'll pull that sword out early), she can't really kill Maho without Star Calvaria.

Get the fuck out of here:tripscust
Ciel does not need Calvaria Star to kill Mahoraga under any goddamn means when she has other shit that would instantly kill it for far fucking less(Like say, the other Magecraft she has access to?) or just use Ballista:


Even with the anti regen technique, Mahoraga could probably just adapt.

Mahoraga doesn't instantly adapt even in the Manga, let alone the Anime, even against Gojo with Sukuna using the Wheel to forcibly adapt in advance. In the Event that Ciel somehow doesn't instantly kill it in one attack, it's not instantly adapting just because.

Anyway, Mahoraga is implied to be able to survive a Fire Arrow,

:dafuqMahoraga fucking DIED taking that shit and despite SB's insistence in pretending that shit was stronger than it actually was... it's literally no stronger than Ciel's Ballista shot if not actually weaker considering Arcueid is far, far, far stronger than Mahoraga is and she got damaged due to that. The hell is this dude talking about?

so until that 3 minute time of Star Calvaria runs out, Maho should almost definitely be able to survive against whatever Ciel throws at it.

Just saying he could doesn't mean he can...
I genuinely despise how SB debates because it's literally just fan-fiction, not actually taking shit into account and debating against it.

It also has enough physical strength to push 15f Sukuna through a few buildings, and survive dismantle without adaptation. As long as Maho is on the offensive, it should have an advantage.

Honest question: What does ANY of that have to do in the grand scheme of things? Arcueid was bullying the shit out of Ciel to the point of destroying an entire hallway and Ciel was still very much intact despite the damage across the entire school hallway that stretched through a connected building. Again, punching someone through buildings alone doesn't matter, surviving dismantle(which is already one of the most overrated moves I've seen) doesn't matter until we genuinely have a good comparison tool to work with... which if we take it how it is?
Again, it's horrifically unimpressive by any genuine standards.

Ciel is smarter though, so she can probably win. I'd be very surprised if the stat difference between the was enough that Ciel wouldn't be able to stall.

She doesn't need Star of Calvaria, she could literally kill it through any other means including just physically beating it to death with magical energy augmentation... she utterly outstrips Mahoraga... to an absolutely hilarious degree.

Granted.... She did not use Star Calvaria against Vlov at any point in their fight.

Shouldn't that then speak volumes or are you gonna pretend Mahoraga is a match for fucking Vlov? Guaranteed, I can see this assclown legit believing Mahoraga can deal with Vlov because "Look at how strong the Fire Arrow is at melting things!" and then think that's comparable to Vlov's absorbed heat when it's not.:jordangif

I can't tell if that's because she can only use Star Calvaria while it has massive range and can't shorten it for some reason, or if it's because she wasn't empowered by her IB and couldn't multitask as well. If it's the latter, she loses.

For the last time, she doesn't need Star of Calvaria...
I never can understand people who pretend they know Nasu... because they either read the wiki or the basic bitch synopsis and still get shit wrong so easily and so badly at that?

I respect dude for literally having Streamable links of Ciel's weaponry because yeah, it just further shows how Ciel would casually murder everyone in JJK rather than Imaginary pretending Mahoraga has any level of a chance.
 
Last one for a few days as I will again be taking a break due to my computer going into the shop:


She casually does keep up with if not outpace Stark, the one and only attack he manages to blitz her with is lightning strike.

Atleast he's not dumb enough to pretend Stark's strike is literally as fast as a Lightning bolt... I don't see how anything I have seen in Frieren or from Linie can somehow outpace Shirou...

This was after she swung at Stark and he tanked her hit then counter struck her before she could pull back and intercept.

And Shirou has legit taken worse hits than anything Linie has done... are we legit pretending that Stark is far more dense than Shirou? The guy that should have been reduced to gore after getting hit by Merodach in the Fate Route?

Here, Gilgamesh attacks with Merodach/Gram's version of the attack Caliburn used to kill Herakles, Shirou's Caliburn goes to clash with it, Caliburn breaks on impact. Here, Shirou's body was split from left shoulder to waist by Merodach/Gram's version of Caliburn's attack. Here, Shirou's body was reinforced by UBW swords stitching it together enough that he was praised by Gilgamesh for his durability (as he was able to keep his body from being blown apart by Merodach/Gram's version of Caliburn's attack like Gilgamesh was expecting to happen).

Or the fact that Medusa's kick in that same Route would have instantly killed him without his body's reinforcement?

Here, the Tiger Dojo confirms Shirou would normally die from Medusa's kick without his body reinforcing itself with swords.

And Shinji's Medusa may be the weakest Servant but she is still vastly superhuman regardless and is honestly more impressive than anyone in Frieren... it's funny these are NEVER brought up and it's just acting as if Shirou and Rin are weaker than baseline humans whenever it becomes convenient.

I want you to look very carefully at the sequence here. At 10 seconds in she hits him and her hit doesn't cut through him as she expected, at 14 seconds in she pulls out but can't intercept in time.

1. I wonder why that's the case? It's not like Stark was in position to slash her regardless of what she was doing right? Which is why he tanked the hit?

2.

I have seen shit from this fight... and genuinely nothing is all that impressive that Shirou nor Rin hasn't dealt with in the Fate Route alone. It's the same shit with a different coat of paint of SB hyperwanking the shit out of a franchise that is honestly not that impressive in what they are CHOOSING to put up.

Stark had to capitalize on this very specific opening to win.

...Then why are you making it seem impressive when it's literally tanking an attack and exchanging the blow right after? It's literally not as impressive as you are pushing it, to be honest.

If lightning strike alone was enough to easily win, he wouldnt have been getting rag dolled for most of the fight and nearly killed.

Again she's faster than him which that part is true... you also miss that Stark did that because he knew she wasn't as strong as him... and if we are trying to pretend Linie would be able to defeat Heracles or a Servant, I got a bridge to sell you.

We know Stark can spam lightning strike if he wants to as well, so he probably wasn't confident it could connect with her up to that point.

Again, are we pretending Stark's Lightning Strike is as fast as Lightning? Because that's a HELL of a stretch if we are going with that.

Hell, I'm legit watching this entire fight and:



Where the hell are we getting that this makes Linie superior to Shirou in speed? How does this make Stark superior to Shirou in speed? That allows them to go beyond Mach in the way they are pushing it? I'm not even trying to be like them or anything, this is a HORRIBLE example and using the Manga is worse:

EksY9nC.png


This can ultimately mean anything because Flash Steps are fucking useless because we don't have a full passage of time of how fast the character is moving and it's worthless if the characters CAN STILL REACT FINE TO THE PERSON DOING SO!
It just amounts to "The character is fast" which is why Bleach gets mocked by most people because Bleach literally has no feats of speed whatsoever until late in the series.

By comparison:

Here, Herakles begins to swing his Axe-Sword at Shirou, the sword is swung with the intention to really kill Shirou this time. Here, Herakles attack in transit, Shirou uses a partially formed Projection of Caliburn, Shirou proves able to block Herakles strikes.

Here, Shirou senses and dodges Cu Chulainn's assassination attempt. Here, Shirou barely defends against Cu Chulainn's second strike with his poster sword. Here, Shirou blocks the next strike through instinct. Here, Cu's next strike is also blocked, but it bends the reinforced poster. Here, Shirou barely manages to budge Cu's lance with a sword strike of his own. Shirou realizes how much Cu's been playing with him so far. Here, Shirou escapes through the window, Cu pursues, Shirou instinctively deflects Cu's next strike.

Even a simple heated(but not full power) exchange between Cu and EMIYA had hundreds of blows in less than a second, something Shirou would obviously have to contend with by fighting any Servant, let alone defending against them. Lugner and Rin is even dumber but at this point, I'm just tired and Rin tends to be downplayed immensely in SB because "she does no huge explosions and if Medea's "Weak attacks" can stop her jewels, then so could everyone else because terrible ass reasons."
 

Atem

King of Games
V.I.P. Member
Ever since people started to try quantifying faster than the eye movement speed? It has become cancerous in versus debates. Shit can mean anything. The person could just be too slow to move their eyeballs fast enough to keep up, they could be a blur or hard to track visually, or it could just be there purely for style. Rarely does a writer think about something like that. Unless they are versus nerds.

They are not for example going to say moving faster than the eye means a character is FTL or something. Cause sight is reliant on light.
 
Ever since people started to try quantifying faster than the eye movement speed? It has become cancerous in versus debates. Shit can mean anything. The person could just be too slow to move their eyeballs fast enough to keep up, they could be a blur or hard to track visually, or it could just be there purely for style. Rarely does a writer think about something like that. Unless they are versus nerds.

They are not for example going to say moving faster than the eye means a character is FTL or something. Cause sight is reliant on light.

Yeah, that's been my precise problem with how SB and the rare others on Reddit tend to debate legit piss me off something fierce. There's many reasons for the style to exist and just using that alone to then go "Well, they are surely more faster than this medium here" is just extremely lazy and virtual fan-fic levels of debating rather than doing any real debating.

It's the same issue I have when people cannot understand that Supersonic, Mach, FTL, AU and so on are Units of Measurement/Speed and are not the end all, be all even in their own fields and SB is especially guilty of that shit. A character is Supersonic even if they are FTL because Supersonic is just being faster than Sound, a character can be x100 FTL and still be FTL as it's just a measurement of speed, AU is just Astronomical Units of crossing the distance from the Sun to the Earth and so on with shit like Planck.
I can never understand how people can't understand that and yet desperately use it as a crutch without any irony whatsoever.
 

Salfarc

Paramount
Is there a compilation of how strong is Takeru? I know the story of F/SR but without the DLC and didnt really know his feat in FGO.
 

shiny

Paramount
Shirou with UBW can only defeat one very specific servant and no other, this is made clear. With even his future self who is a Servant being pretty much a mid tier one who can't stand up to any notable servant despite having actual servant stats unlike Shirou.

Even then the one servant he can defeat was pretty much giving Shirou every possible advantage he could have. No armor he usually wears to vastly increase his defences further, no engaging in actual physical combat where he is stronger, no Noble Phantasms he isn't suited or unable to copy. He was specifically engaging Shirou in a fight which favoured the only advantage he has, faster firing speed, because a mere human making inferior copies of his treasures hurt his ego. Even then, though Shirou landed a notable hit directly on Gilgamesh he was still around and kicking after Shirou ran out of mana, if the Grail hadn't decided to absorb him and Archer shooting him in the head things wouldn't have went well for Shirou.
We are talking about the same Archer who, practically without Rin's recharge was able to kill Hercules 6 times, in the first meeting he almost accidentally killed Medea, fighting with the serious Cuchulainn, and was able to survive a volley of GOB at point-blank range.
 

OtherGalaxy

ยสี่สี่สี่สี่สี่สี่สี่สี่ สี่สี
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Jack is definitely not FEP
yeah they arent similar at all. fep has no idea what he’s talking about, he just copy+pastes stuff he finds from “debunk” threads that either lacks or deliberately omits context. Jack actually HAS read these comics, he just goes with the most insane low ends imaginable (he brought up Hulk being pierced by a hypodermic needle as a legitimate feat that should be considered)
 

We are talking about the same Archer who, practically without Rin's recharge was able to kill Hercules 6 times, in the first meeting he almost accidentally killed Medea, fighting with the serious Cuchulainn, and was able to survive a volley of GOB at point-blank range.

At this point, LightspeedZephyr is just being the embodiment of every reason why Spacebattles is a joke.
He states that EMIYA is a Mid-Tier Servant when he was able to fight against Artoria under Rin so well despite having very little magical energy, she believes he would be tougher if he was at full strength:

Here, Artoria regains her true powers by becoming Rin's servant (she's no longer nerfed like she was under Shirou). Here, with Rin as her master, Artoria would not even lose to Herakles as she is now. Here, EMIYA charges Artoria, attacks Artoria with all his might, Artoria repels EMIYA's blow and forces him to lose balance. Here, EMIYA blocks Artoria's strikes, he's left unable to counterattack. Here, the match ends fairly quick, EMIYA is forced to his knees and has to block Artoria's last vertical slash with both his swords. Here, Artoria muses EMIYA would have performed better had he not been running on fumes. Here, EMIYA is left with no magical energy due to the number of Noble Phantasms he used to end Medea's life (on top of already being depleted from fighting Cu Chulainn). Here, Artoria's sword in her current sword lock with EMIYA is loosened enough by EMIYA's words that EMIYA uses the opening to kick her 5 meters away.

Which becomes funny because he basically fights Shirou after that with only less than 1/10th of his overall magical energy levels:

Here, EMIYA's body is only half responding, his remaining strength/magical energy is only 1/10th his original power (his stamina, unless you're batshit crazy enough to call reinforced Kuzuki 1/10th as strong as EMIYA), and his muscles are weak (which seems like it's meaningless later on during the fight).

It's the same problem you see all the time except it's worse:



Even without the major context of the VN, these fights STILL make Frieren coming off as superior a joke, it's also the same issue with the "Mach Cone" that he also tries to bring up with Stark fighting the Dragon but if we are going with that, Heracles did the same thing and moved even FASTER in the HF Movies and EMIYA still fought Heracles going all out to kill him in the Fate Route.

It's the typical shit you see all the time in SB: Dudes wanting to downplay franchises to put up others even if there's no way they would otherwise stand a chance(It's why you have people genuinely believing that Mahoraga and Sukuna are somehow "High Tier Servants" when they wouldn't even be able to match the typical Mage) not because we may have genuinely missed something, it's just that come off "more impressive" because they are as blind as a bat when it comes to eyeballing feats.
 
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