Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 5: Diamonds are fleeting. Stupid lasts forever

Salfarc · May 28, 2024

Xhominid The Apex said:
She would have trouble with Siegfried, that doesn't mean it's an instant loss, I don't know how you reach that conclusion to believe so if Berserker Lancelot couldn't do so despite her being catatonic and out of it.

Despite what it seems like Lancelot IS on Siegfried's level, especially as a Berserker and has an Anti-Dragon weapon.

No one is saying it is instant loss, I don't know how you reach that conclusion. It is however prove he win vs her, maybe with high difficulty maybe with low difficulty? Who knows. Either way that text alone means he can definitely handle her at full power. This is Siegfried downplay like SB do.

Lancelot doesn't have Anti-Dragon, only his weapon does and it's not like he keep using Arondight against her. Siegfried's entire existence is anti-dragon. You yourself claiming Lancelot nearly kill her with said Arondight, regardless if she is catatonic or not does not help your argument especially when the only reason he didn't kill her is because Kariya lose energy and he stop moving. Lancelot also isn't flat-out being stated to be something she will have problem with, unlike Siegfried.

This is just you not wanting to accept you are wrong, despite the material itself state as such. You arguing against this is literally you arguing against canon. You are really no different than SB holy shit. <_<

CrossTheHorizon · May 28, 2024

Saying Arturia would struggle with Siegfried because of compatibility does not mean that he can actually take her in a straight up fight. It means his advantages are enough to close the gap in raw power between them.

Lancelot is explicitly a better fighter than her, was amped out of his ass, and was using a Dragon Slayer sword that further amps him. He whaled on her for a solid two to three minutes while she was catatonic. She survived anyway.

Xhominid The Apex · May 28, 2024

Salfarc said:
No one is saying it is instant loss, I don't know how you reach that conclusion. It is however prove he win vs her, maybe with high difficulty maybe with low difficulty? Who knows. Either way that text alone means he can definitely handle her at full power. This is Siegfried downplay like SB do.

Lancelot doesn't have Anti-Dragon, only his weapon does and it's not like he keep using Arondight against her. Siegfried's entire existence is anti-dragon. You yourself claiming Lancelot nearly kill her with said Arondight, regardless if she is catatonic or not does not help your argument especially when the only reason he didn't kill her is because Kariya lose energy and he stop moving. Lancelot also isn't flat-out being stated to be something she will have problem with, unlike Siegfried.

This is just you not wanting to accept you are wrong, despite the material itself state as such. You arguing against this is literally you arguing against canon. You are really no different than SB holy shit. <_<

1. Me and Cross just pointed out how that doesn't work using Fate/Zero as an example while Artoria was virtually defenseless and me using Apocrypha in that if we are going with what you say is true, Mordred should have died even to Sieg's halfassed Balmung, not have survived and still able to move and fight.

2. Lancelot's Arodnight explicitly has Anti-Dragon Properties:

Fate/Grand Order material II said:

He possesses the famed sword Arondight that brings down even dragons, but there are also cases where he took elm branch or snatched away his enemy's sword and used it as his own weapon.

Fate/Grand Order material IV said:

Arondight.
The moment he draw out this sword, his whole parameter is increased by 1 rank.
Furthermore, due to the anecdote of dragon extermination, it deals additional damage against Heroic Spirit with dragonic attribute.

Lancelot is capable of keeping up with a 3x boosted Gawain and still keep up with Barghest at the height of her power in LB6, I do not understand at all how Lancelot being a Berserker(which means getting an amp to his stats) then getting further amped by Arodnight which explicitly boost Lancelot's stats by one AND THEN whaling on her forever with Arodnight only just brought her to the brink of death rather than killed her on the spot.

Fate/Zero Volume 4 said:

Source

Artoria, completely devoid of fighting spirit due to the revelation of Lancelot, was being tossed around by Arondight enhanced Lancelot’s blows “countless times”.

For the countless time, she was thrown into the air.

For the countless time, she was effortlessly beaten to the ground. Saber had given up counting, because she could no longer remember.

The strongest sword-wielding Servant? Who had fabricated this? —Now she was like a small boat in a storm. Facing Berserker’s waving black sword, she could only give up resistance and suffer the attack; she could not even make a single decent retaliatory blow. She did not even feel indignant at this. Her heart, immersed in hopelessness, had long since become devoid of all fighting spirit. She was no longer the heroic King of Knights that was named the incarnation of the dragon. This was truly too tragic; it made one sigh.

She should be going to save Irisviel; they had made a vow to hold up the Grail together. She could not lower her head now; she knew this clearly in her heart.

But she could not win. Facing that man, that sword, there was no way to obtain victory.

Artoria’s mind is too fucked up by Lancelot’s revelation that she can do little more than defend her body from fatal blows.

And yet he had committed himself to madness. Hatred roiled within the red eyes; at the same time he gave out an animalistic howl.

He roared, I hate you.

He roared, I curse you.

Exactly how was she to avoid the sword that he brandished downward full of hatred?

She could not look at him directly. Her sight blurred in tears, her legs buckled down weakly. At this moment, all Saber could do with all her strength was to protect her body before suffering the fatal impact.

Source

Artoria’s condition after fighting Lancelot

Saber walked through the flames that burned like purgatory.

The wounds that Berserker had inflicted on her were beyond that which could be cured by her regenerative abilities. The once shining platinum armor was also stained black in places by Berserker’s countless attacks. Her bloodless skin was white as paper. Her knees were weak, her ankles trembled, her breathing was rapid; with every step, pain wracked her entire body, almost making her lose consciousness.

She would have trouble with Siegfried, but it's not a loss either.

Salfarc said:
This is just you not wanting to accept you are wrong, despite the material itself state as such. You arguing against this is literally you arguing against canon. You are really no different than SB holy shit. <_<

Death Of The Author exists here, my dude, especially when canon overwrites what is written in the materials.
And it's insane how you keep doing exactly what you accuse me of and accept nothing else which is exactly like an SB'er lol.

Salfarc · May 28, 2024

CrossTheHorizon said:
Saying Arturia would struggle with Siegfried because of compatibility does not mean that he can actually take her in a straight up fight. It means his advantages are enough to close the gap in raw power between them.

Lancelot is explicitly a better fighter than her, was amped out of his ass, and was using a Dragon Slayer sword that further amps him. He whaled on her for a solid two to three minutes while she was catatonic. She survived anyway.

Which means, Siegfried can totally handle her. Your own wording means literally that. And in that scene, you have no way of knowing if the outcome won't be the same in which Artoria eventually losing to Lancelot due to the anti-dragon just harder for Lancelot. The novel literally stated she can't win.

This does not mean she 100% will lose against any anti-dragon, like Lancelot and Siegfried but it will be losing matchup for her, which means Siegfried can totally handle her, or else it won't be problem for her at all

Xhominid The Apex said:
2. Lancelot's Arodnight explicitly has Anti-Dragon Properties:

Yes, that is also what I said. This is why you must read instead of yapping.

Salfarc said:
Lancelot doesn't have Anti-Dragon, only his weapon does

You literally quote this part too.

Again, this is the very behavious SB regularly perform, the very same SB you criticize. And the very same behaviour you mock. You are the same. You don't read.

Xhominid The Apex said:
Me and Cross just pointed out how that doesn't work using Fate/Zero as an example while Artoria was virtually defenseless and me using Apocrypha in that if we are going with what you say is true, Mordred should have died even to Sieg's halfassed Balmung, not have survived and still able to move and fight.

No you didn't. You all literally ignoring this part and goes mental gymnastic to justify it.

Also, as her “Pendragon” name shows, Artoria is the holder of the Element of the Red Dragon, charged with the task of protecting the kingdom. She carries the very magical power of the Dragon. This humongous magical power is also the source of Artoria’s Magic Resistance. Due to the characteristics of Dragon, Artoria has much trouble with existences such as Siegfried, who is associated with tales of “Dragon extermination

This comes from material.

Material is canon.

You 2 arguing against this means you are arguing against canon.

You are not the one who dictate what and how the story goes, the author does. You are wrong for arguing against that. You are simply using "death of author" as false justification for anything that is convenient for you. I bet you won't accept this if SB use "death of author" argument to argue against something you disagree, hypocrite. By you arguing against me saying you argue against canon, you might as well just use headcanon. Pretty sure you treat it as wrong when SB do that.

Whether you want to accept you are wrong or not is up to you, I am done.

Xhominid The Apex · May 28, 2024

Salfarc said:
You literally quote this part too.

Again, this is the very behavious SB regularly perform, the very same SB you criticize. And the very same behaviour you mock. You are the same. You don't read.

...Siegfried himself is not an Anti-Dragon being, only Balmung has it...
You seriously need to stop insulting me when you are being no different than SB right now.

Salfarc said:
No you didn't. You all literally ignoring this part and goes mental gymnastic to justify it.

I'm using "mental gymnastics"(aka bringing in passages from Fate/Zero and Apocrypha) to take away the fact that the materials isn't correct in stating that Artoria would lose to Siegfried because of "Anti-Dragon" effectiveness? Did you forget not even those who gain the Evil Dragon Phenomenon and become Fafnir are never bodied by a single TNR Balmung attack? Not even Sieg?

Salfarc said:
This comes from material.

Material is canon.

Until it's contradicted... which it was multiple times.

Salfarc said:
You 2 arguing against this means you are arguing against canon.

...That's literally an SB-tier argument, holy fuck.

Salfarc said:
You are not the one who dictate what and how the story goes, the author does. You are wrong for arguing against that. You are simply using "death of author" as false justification for anything that is convenient for you. I bet you won't accept this if SB use "death of author" argument to argue against something you disagree, hypocrite. By you arguing against me saying you argue against canon, you might as well just use headcanon. Pretty sure you treat it as wrong when SB do that.

Death of The Author is not an SB-tier tactic(Hell, they explicitly do the opposite), we explicitly use Death of The Author to a point because by your own logic, Melusine-Albion can only move slightly faster than Mach 2.
It's insane you keep calling me hypocrite and "being like SB" every time I disagree with you, especially when you said this shit not even a few posts ago:

Salfarc said:
Xhom...when you are wrong, or even when people disagree with you, you go raving like madman, I don't think you get to say that. As in, you are already like Type-Rey

And just block Kingoftime like I did.

Stop projecting, holy fuck.

Masterblack06 · May 28, 2024

another argument about fate power levels

Between this and Pax and Astaro arguing about To Aru powerlevels yall are gonna give me brainrot

Xhominid The Apex · May 28, 2024

Need not worry, someone else is joining Astaro in the Ignore section till I feel otherwise...
King Of Time will most likely join in a bit.

shiny · May 28, 2024

Xhom, seriously?
You're starting to be a hypocrite right in the text.

...Siegfried himself is not an Anti-Dragon being, only Balmung has it...
You seriously need to stop insulting me when you are being no different than SB right now.

Are you kidding?

Dragon Slayer: A

One of the special Skills possessed by those who brought down a member of the Dragon Kind. Drastically improves one’s offensive power and defensive power against Dragon Kins. It can be said that this is not a talent given from heaven, but the very anecdote of killing a dragon having been changed into this Skill.

Until it's contradicted... which it was multiple times.

Except...No. Lancelot is not a dragon slayer. Even the profile of Arondite that you provided says that this is basically an anecdote that became part of Arondite and Lancelot. At the same time, for Siegfried, killing the dragon is his essence as a Hero. So don't mind anything.

...That's literally an SB-tier argument, holy fuck.

No. SB tier is the one from above, that Siegfried has nothing about killing a dragon except a sword.

Death of The Author is not an SB-tier tactic(Hell, they explicitly do the opposite), we explicitly use Death of The Author to a point because by your own logic, Melusine-Albion can only move slightly faster than Mach 2.

Yes. Yes. Let's remember, this is definitely the same thing. And it doesn’t matter that in the case of Melusine’s Mach 2, it was written in the story itself that she could fly faster, but here all the evidence is clear.

CrossTheHorizon · May 28, 2024

Salfarc said:
Which means, Siegfried can totally handle her. Your own wording means literally that. And in that scene, you have no way of knowing if the outcome won't be the same in which Artoria eventually losing to Lancelot due to the anti-dragon just harder for Lancelot. The novel literally stated she can't win.

No, it means Seigfried can hold his own against her. Archer is a "troublesome" existence for Gilgamesh as well, because their compatibility is bad.

And she can't win against Lancelot in that scenario because she isn't fighting back at all. Like she literally wasn't doing anything but standing there getting ragdolled for three minutes and he still failed to finish her off.

Salfarc said:
This does not mean she 100% will lose against any anti-dragon, like Lancelot and Siegfried but it will be losing matchup for her, which means Siegfried can totally handle her, or else it won't be problem for her at all

No, it just means that they don't instantly lose against her despite the power gap.

Salfarc said:
This comes from material.

Material is canon.

You 2 arguing against this means you are arguing against canon.

You are not the one who dictate what and how the story goes, the author does. You are wrong for arguing against that. You are simply using "death of author" as false justification for anything that is convenient for you. I bet you won't accept this if SB use "death of author" argument to argue against something you disagree, hypocrite. By you arguing against me saying you argue against canon, you might as well just use headcanon. Pretty sure you treat it as wrong when SB do that.

Whether you want to accept you are wrong or not is up to you, I am done.

You're being awful cocky for someone with so little reading comprehension.

The singular statement your argument rests upon just says that Seigfried is trouble for her. It does not say "she will lose", it does not say "he will win". It says that the dragon slayer is trouble for the dragon Servant.

The ability to punch out of your weight class through compatibility is recurring thing in Fate, and that's all this is indicating. It no more suggests she would lose than Gil would to Archer under normal circumstances.

Masterblack06 · May 28, 2024

Darth Nihilus · May 28, 2024

Xhominid The Apex · May 28, 2024

shiny said:
Xhom, seriously?
You're starting to be a hypocrite right in the text.

...Siegfried has Balmung which has Anti-Dragon properties, yes but Siegfried himself is not Anti-Dragon, his punches does not have Anti-Dragon properties, that's what Salfarc was arguing about.

How am I being hypocritical "right from the text" when that's precisely how that's described?

Are you kidding?

A Skill he has to activate like every other Skill in the franchise outside of the rare ones that are automatically activated...
Also, that's an FGO Skill which is most likely does not actually exist for Siegfried because in Apocrypha, he doesn't have that as a Skill:

Fate/Apocrypha material - STATUS: Saber of Black, p.018-019

Class Skills
■ Magic Resistance: -
As compensation for obtaining Evil Dragon's Blood Armor this is lost.

■ Riding: B
Riding Ability.
Majority of vehicles can be ridden above average. Magical Beasts, Holy Beast rank beasts cannot be ridden.

Personal Skills
■ Golden Rule: C-
A life in which money is fated revolve around.
Due to the Nibelung treasure promised a life untroubled by money, but Luck is Rank-Down.

So it's not something he has outside of FGO.

shiny said:
Except...No. Lancelot is not a dragon slayer. Even the profile of Arondite that you provided says that this is basically an anecdote that became part of Arondite and Lancelot. At the same time, for Siegfried, killing the dragon is his essence as a Hero. So don't mind anything.

Weapon strong enough to fell Dragons, has Anti-Dragon Properties... but it's not the same as being a Dragon Slayer? Shiny, what the fuck are you talking about? You know damn well that doesn't matter for Fate whatsoever.
Also if you use that logic, then Sieg should have killed Mordred in their confrontation regardless of how weak his Balmung was then.

shiny said:
No. SB tier is the one from above, that Siegfried has nothing about killing a dragon except a sword.

He doesn't because outside of FGO which explicitly gives characters Skills and NPs they wouldn't have otherwise due to the circumstances(Heracles' Nine Lives would be sealed as a Berserker), Siegfried doesn't have a Dragon Slayer Skill and honest to god, it makes no sense for him to have it(Because again, FGO has characters have NPs or Class Skills as Skills to use ingame)

shiny said:
Yes. Yes. Let's remember, this is definitely the same thing. And it doesn’t matter that in the case of Melusine’s Mach 2, it was written in the story itself that she could fly faster, but here all the evidence is clear.

And we have evidence in the story that the Materials stating Siegfried "would be trouble" wouldn't mean Siegfried has a massive edge against her, it would mean he's just trouble for her. I do not understand how neither of you can read while being so damn confident that you are somehow right.

Masterblack06 · May 28, 2024

Seriously though chill out with the constant fate arguments, theres other places to do that that isnt here

Paxton · May 28, 2024

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/v-cyberpunk-vs-dragonborn-skyrim.1166046/

Terrible.

Awful.

Ghastly.

Horrid.

Masterblack06 · May 28, 2024

Paxton said:
https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/v-cyberpunk-vs-dragonborn-skyrim.1166046/

Terrible.

Awful.

Ghastly.

Horrid.

SB try not to be ass challenge level: impossible

King · May 28, 2024

King · May 28, 2024

Xhominid The Apex · May 28, 2024

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/demons-sousou-no-frieren-vs-fuyuki-city-fate-stay-night.1166019/

Depending on how big Fuyuki is, Macht might be able to immediately win by just turning everyone into gold.

Why would it be a worse version? By feats it's quite a bit stronger then her mystic eyes. It outscales them massively, does not have the same problem of not working on anything with too much magic (Despite Mana in Frieren also granting resistance to magic), does not even register as magic to even the most sensitive of mages & has defied attempts to dispel it for literal millennia.

Direct feats for Medea dispelling Medusa's petrification would work as feats for working against Diagoldze. Though dispelling it over a whole city rather then individuals would be a rather different beast again.

Sure. There is a case to be made when considering 'penetration' compared to 'scale'. But Diagoldze is hyped and has generally demonstrated incredible power. Beyond the feats that I'd be aware of for Cybele. I don't see what it would have demonstrated to make it superior.

I legit cannot understand Spacebattles' fascination with Frieren and thinking it's basically like how they praise Overlord or just believing that the Nasuverse really is that weak according to their insane delusions...
The fact that you have to explain how ludicrous Cybele is(Not only does it work instantly and can even affect Servants negatively in multiple fronts, it works even if you imagine her eyes) and they still pretend that Diagoldze is "just that much more powerful" just reeks of that typical fan fiction debating wholesale.

This is still heavily ignoring that Servants can sense Magical Energy, Mages have Resistances against Magic that happens inside of them and the Demons are nowhere the level of even Shirou, Kotomine, Rin or Kuzuki, let alone the Servants. They really love acting like Gilgamesh is the clencher when he's not even needed for this... or any Servant for that matter.

Paxton · May 28, 2024

why would magic resistance work on something that isn't considered magic

Crimson Dragoon · May 28, 2024

https://forums.spacebattles.com/thr...-vs-every-single-rat-in-new-york-city.1165797

@OtherGalaxy the successor to your Kirito vs NY rat thread

Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 5: Diamonds are fleeting. Stupid lasts forever

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