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Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 5: Diamonds are fleeting. Stupid lasts forever


Thread still being argued on how Karna won't have enough Magical Energy to take on every last Wizard when in the OP's notes:
This is Karna vs the whole Wizarding world. He starts outside of Hogwarts and his goal is to defeat every single Wizard and magical being to return home to his master. He only has his magical energy source at the start of Apocrypha and his offensive NPs are restricted. The entire wizarding world has a week of prep against him. All feats allowed
So... he would be connected to the Greater Grail then? Because Amakusa already pretty much took down the whole Team Red and became all of the Servants' Masters practically at the beginning of Apocrypha.

Saber can barely be supported by Rin alone, and Saber both has exceptional magical energy refueling on her own and when not fighting uses the amazing power of being a normal human. She's uniquely suited to being cheap when not fighting.

Huh? Because Shirou and the story itself acknowledges differently when it comes to Rin being Artoria's Master:
Here, Artoria with Rin as a Master should be able to use Excalibur 2 times in a battle (this is without Avalon).
Here, all the Noble Phantasm Gilgamesh has sitting outside the Gate of Babylon appear to be third rate compared to Ea. Here, Gilgamesh releases his Noble Phantasms, Artoria repels them all to defend Shirou. Here, Gilgamesh is cautious against Rin Artoria, he wants to avoid HtH with her as his skill is inferior.
Here, Artoria regains her true powers by becoming Rin's servant (she's no longer nerfed like she was under Shirou). Here, with Rin as her master, Artoria would not even lose to Herakles as she is now.
Here, Artoria releases Invisible Air and transfers all her magical energy into her body. Here, Shirou readies the command spell 10 seconds before EMIYA's next shot, the power this command spell will grant Artoria is enough to fill her enormous Magic Circuit, thus bringing her back to the level of power she had in life (basically, a single command spell has the power to take Artoria from being handicapped by Shirou being her Master to the level of power she'd have under Rin).

There is nothing at all stating Rin can "barely support Artoria" when the entirety of F/SN has consistently stated Rin can very much support Artoria just fine if she was ever her Master, far more than Shirou or Kiritsugu ever could.


Rin doesn't cost any magical energy to exist.
So Siriel is going to ignore what she did during Unlimited Blade Works now?! She was literally supporting both Saber's existence AND Shirou using his own version of Unlimited Blade Works WHILE rescuing Shinji from the Failed Greater Grail ALL AT THE SAME TIME!
What the fuck is this?!

And no, unlike Saber Karna is always at the level of a Servant as well as a demigod. Saber meanwhile unless she specifically uses Mana Burst is an ordinary girl in terms of physique, requiring far less magical energy, and is capable of generating far more magical energy on her own than other Servants due to her dragon traits.
Which isn't working that well due to her own malformed summoning under Shirou and never gets fixed until Rin becomes her Master...
This is also ridiculous because he keeps trying to act like the Moon Cell was paying extra to Karna's existence to ignore Jinako when it didn't do that either, Karna was explicitly fighting all on his own and didn't even use that much from Jinako either.

This is specifically because the Holy Grail is no longer helping.
Which Rin agrees would be difficult by herself but she thinks they can about manage if Shirou helps.
He's... actually using the Epilogue... to bolster his point...
Despite equally admitting in the same breath it's due to the Holy Grail not being there and thus Servants would have even more issues sticking around because there's nothing stabilizing their existence past getting enough Magical Energy to keep them around...

A problem Karna wouldn't have anyway in this debate!

The rest of it is basically garbage that still has Siriel forget that a Master only STABILIZES a Servant's existence and gives them Magical Energy and the Holy Grail is basically their ticket to even manifest without The World immediately trying to crush them into nothingness, again something that cannot happen in this VS. debate without the entire Wizarding World being obliterated immediately.
 
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Op pussied out of placing Plank-Zero AI or Anti-Xeelee. CTC are not even that grand of a thing in the setting. They are efficient through.Leaving CTC behind, Culture Minds probably take this, from what limited I know of them. Then again, I have seen people make some outrageous statement about Moon Cell, so maybe I will not partake in this one.


Toaru people, what hell is Thoth-78 and what did Karachi smoke when writing the name?
 
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They are efficient through.Leaving CTC behind, Culture Minds probably take this, from what limited I know of them.
Surprisingly, even old and outdated Xeelee computers such as the Gamma Ray Processor are far superior to Culture Minds when it comes to sheer number crunching and processing power-
He picked up a data desk and waved it around in the air. "This is a sophisticated gadget, the result of twenty-five thousand years of technological progress. But what does it weigh—around a kilogram?

From the point of view of the gadget's purpose, which is computation, almost all of this mass is wasted, just a framework. This desk would be able to achieve a lot more if all of its mass-energy were devoted to computing. In the form of photons, say, this kilogram of stuff could process at the rate of ten to power fifty-one operations per second. That's a million billion billion billion billion..."

Similarly, the memory capacity of a computer depended on how many distinguishable states its system could take. If Nilis's inert kilogram were converted to a liter of light, the capacity would become some ten thousand billion billion billion bits.

"In fact, our most advanced computers have a design something like this," he said. "Perhaps you know it. At the core of the 'nervous system' of a greenship is a vat of radiant energy, much of it gamma-ray photons, but some of it more exotic higher-energy particles. Energy is bled off from the ship's GUT generator, to keep the photon soup at around a billion degrees. Information is stored in the positions and trajectories of the photons, and is processed by collisions between the particles. To read it, you open up a hole in the side of the box and let some of the light out." - Exultant
There were limitations with such a design, because the rate at which information could be extracted, limited by lightspeed, was much less than the computer's storage capacity. "You only get a glimpse of what's going on in there," said Nilis. "So our best computers are massively parallel, with subsections working virtually independently." The input-output rate could be increased if the computer were made smaller, because it took less time for information to be moved around. But as the size was reduced, the energy density would increase. "You encounter more and more exotic high energy particles," said Nilis, "until you pass the point at which you can control them. Gamma-ray processing is the limit of our technological capabilities right now. But of course that's not the physical limit. If you keep crushing down your computer, keep increasing its density, you finish up with—" - Exultant
They literally operate at the Bekenstien's Bound and are capable of 10^51 operations/second. They are unsurprisingly the most powerful computers designed as per known physics, and to put the number perspective- simulating universes to a reasonable resolution is within the scope of 10^51 FLOP/10^31 memory machine which is orders of magnitude lower than a Gamma Ray Processor. Xeelee is a hard sci-fi where the scale is done right and it shows.

I'm gonna take from Sufficient's post on this-

1. We are in fact given some specs of the Minds, namely we do know that the full memory storage of an Iridian War era Mind was on the order of 10^30 'characters'.

The Mind had an image to illustrate its information capacity. It liked to imagine the contents of its memory store written out on cards; little slips of paper with tiny writing on them, big enough for a human to read. If the characters were a couple of millimetres tall and the paper about ten centimetres square and written on both sides, then ten thousand characters could be squeezed onto each card. In a metre-long drawer of such cards maybe one thousand of them - then million pieces of information - could be stored. In a small room a few metres square, with a corridor in the middle just wide enough to pull a tray out into, you could keep perhaps a thousand trays arranges in close-packed cabinets: ten billion characters in all. A square kilometre of these cramped cells might contain as many as one hundred thousand rooms; a thousand such floors would produce a building two thousand metres tall with a hundred million rooms.

If you kept building those squat towers, squeezed hard up against each other until they entirely covered the surface of a largish standard-G world - maybe a billion square kilometres - you would have a planet with one trillion square kilometres of floor space, one hundred quadrillion paper-stuffed rooms, thirty light-years of corridors and a number of potential stored characters sufficiently large to boggle just about anybody's mind. In base 10 that number would be a 1 followed by twenty-seven zeroes, and even that vast figure was only a fraction of the capacity of the Mind. To match it you would need a thousand such worlds; systems of them, a clusterful of information-packed globes . . . and that vast capacity was physically contained within a space smaller than a single of those tiny rooms, inside the Mind . . . -Consider Phlebas, Pg 177

Now, one could consider that a 'character' isn't exactly a precise unit of memory, but assuming for a moment that they are encoded in a way comparable to the modern char-types, this would translate to at most 32 bits of data per character. A value which would allow for 4294967296 unique symbols per a single character and one that would translate to Minds total storage being on the order of 3.2 * 10^31 bits.

A value which would be only slightly larger than the storage space of an 1 kg ICOG gamma ray computer, and one that would imply a vastly less efficient storage technology on that era's Minds, given that their mass was far more than 3.2 kg.

In fact one could make an estimation of the Mind's mass based on the fact that 0.5 % of its mass reacting with an Earth-like planet, in an antimatter like fashion, would have resulted in said planet's destruction.

'This Mind went underneath the planet in hyperspace?' she said. 'Then warped inside?'

'That was what it said it was trying to do when it sent the coded message in its destruct pattern. As the planet is still there it must have succeeded. Had it failed, at least half a per cent of its mass would have reacted with the planet's own material as though it was antimatter.' - Consider Phlebas

Going with the binding energy of 10^32 J and using the m = E / c^2 relation one can come into conclusion that Mind's mass would be equal to around 5.5 * 10^16 kg, making it apparently far less efficient at data storage than Coalition's gamma ray computers.

Now, it is true that Minds do transfer data at superluminal velocities, giving them an advantage in the I/O data transfer. That said, this by itself, does not translate into some specific value of computations performed by Mind per second and thus doesn't really tell us anything about Mind's overall computational capabilities.

I guess that one could make some estimations if one was to know the physical size of Minds, and then also use the total number of bits in its memory and the typical, sustainable, speeds of objects achievable with Culture's understanding of hyperspace, but any such estimation would be rather shaky to say the least. For once it would assume that Minds can in fact operate efficiently on all bits making up its memory, or even just a large portion of them, at a given time frame dt.

2. The idea that Minds simulate entire universes loses basically all of its usability, as far as any comparison goes, when one takes into account the fact that we don't have any data on the level of detail, as well as the actual scope, which those simulations do have. You have mentioned here the notion that the Minds were avoiding conditions which could give rise to sentient life in those types of simulations, but this is simply never mentioned in the context of the 'infinite fun space'.

This was the way the Minds spent their time. They imagined entirely new universes with altered physical laws, and played with them, lived in them and tinkered with them, sometimes setting up the conditions for life, sometimes just letting things run to see if it would arise spontaneously, sometimes arranging things so that life was impossible but other kinds and types of bizarrely fabulous complication were enabled. Some of the universes possessed just one tiny but significant alteration, leading to some subtle twist in the way things worked, while others were so wildly, aberrantly different it could take a perfectly first-rate Mind the human equivalent of years of intense thought even to find the one tenuously familiar strand of recognisable reality that would allow it to translate the rest into comprehensibility. Between those extremes lay an infinitude of universes of unutterable fascination, consummate joy and absolute enlightenment. All that humanity knew and could understand, every single aspect, known, guessed at and hoped for in and of the universe was like a mean and base mud hut compared to the vast, glittering cloud-high palace of monumentally exquisite proportions and prodigious riches that was the metamathical realm. Within the infinities raised to the power of infinities that those metamathical rules provided, the Minds built their immense pleasure-domes of rhapsodic philosophical ecstasy.

That was where they lived. That was their home. When they weren't running ships, meddling with alien civilisations or planning the future course of the Culture itself, the Minds existed in those fantastic virtual realities, sojourning beyondward into the multi-dimensioned geographies of their unleashed imaginations, vanishingly far away from the single limited point that was reality.

The Minds had long ago come up with a proper name for it; they called it the Irreal, but they thought of it as Infinite Fun. That was what they really knew it as. The Land of Infinite Fun.

It did the experience pathetically little justice.

-Excession, Pg 139

I guess that one could attempt to infer something from the notion that the universes that the Minds were able to simulate were both large and complex enough to predict the existence life, but at the same time you don't need anything close to the 'complete' recreation of a universe in order to answer whenever it could be inhabited by something.

For instance one could image a simulation with varying levels of complexity, from the very 'low resolution' one of the evolution of matter on intergalactic and interstellar scopes, not so different from RL constructs of this type, to a more detailed one that would model the behaviour of matter on, say, a planet's surface.

Putting this aside, the notion of the simulations gaining consciousness is brought up in a rather different context.
Long before most species made it to the stars, they would be entirely used to the idea that you never made any significant societal decision with large-scale or long-term consequences without running simulations of the future course of events, just to make sure you were doing the right thing. Simming problems at that stage were usually constrained by not having the calculational power to run a sufficiently detailed analysis, or disagreements regarding what the initial conditions ought to be.

Later, usually round about the time when your society had developed the sort of processal tech you could call Artificial Intelligence without blushing, the true nature of the Simming Problem started to appear.

Once you could reliably model whole populations within your simulated environment, at the level of detail and complexity that meant individuals within that simulation had some sort of independent existence, the question became: how god-like, and how cruel, did you want to be?

Most problems, even seemingly really tricky ones, could be handled by simulations which happily modelled slippery concepts like public opinion or the likely reactions of alien societies by the appropriate use of some especially cunning and devious algorithms; whole populations of slightly different simulative processes could be bred, evolved and set to compete against each other to come up with the most reliable example employing the most decisive shortcuts to accurately modelling, say, how a group of people would behave; nothing more processor-hungry than the right set of equations would–once you'd plugged the relevant data in–produce a reliable estimate of how that group of people would react to a given stimulus, whether the group represented a tiny ruling clique of the most powerful, or an entire civilisation.

But not always. Sometimes, if you were going to have any hope of getting useful answers, there really was no alternative to modelling the individuals themselves, at the sort of scale and level of complexity that meant they each had to exhibit some kind of discrete personality, and that was where the Problem kicked in.

Once you'd created your population of realistically reacting and–in a necessary sense–cogitating individuals, you had–also in a sense–created life. The particular parts of whatever computational substrate you'd devoted to the problem now held beings; virtual beings capable of reacting so much like the back-in-reality beings they were modelling–because how else were they to do so convincingly without also hoping, suffering, rejoicing, caring, loving and dreaming?–that by most people's estimation they had just as much right to be treated as fully recognised moral agents as did the originals in the Real, or you yourself.

If the prototypes had rights, so did the faithful copies, and by far the most fundamental right that any creature ever possessed or cared to claim was the right to life itself, on the not unreasonable grounds that without that initial right, all others were meaningless.

By this reasoning, then, you couldn't just turn off your virtual environment and the living, thinking creatures it contained at the completion of a run or when a simulation had reached the end of its useful life; that amounted to genocide, and however much it might feel like serious promotion from one's earlier primitive state to realise that you had, in effect, become the kind of cruel and pettily vengeful god you had once, in your ignorance, feared, it was still hardly the sort of mature attitude or behaviour to be expected of a truly civilised society, or anything to be proud of.

Some civs, admittedly, simply weren't having any of this, and routinely bred whole worlds, even whole galaxies, full of living beings which they blithely consigned to oblivion the instant they were done with them, sometimes, it seemed, just for the glorious fun of it, and to annoy their more ethically angst-tangled co-civilisationalists, but they–or at least those who admitted to the practice, rather than doing it but keeping quiet about it–were in a tiny minority, as well as being not entirely welcome at all the highest tables of the galactic community, which was usually precisely where the most ambitious and ruthless species/civs most desired to be.

Others reckoned that as long as the termination was instant, with no warning and therefore no chance that those about to be switched off could suffer, then it didn't really matter. The wretches hadn't existed, they'd been brought into existence for a specific, contributory purpose, and now they were nothing again; so what?

Most people, though, were uncomfortable with such moral brusqueness, and took their responsibilities in the matter more seriously. They either avoided creating virtual populations of genuinely living beings in the first place, or only used sims at that sophistication and level of detail on a sustainable basis, knowing from the start that they would be leaving them running indefinitely, with no intention of turning the environment and its inhabitants off at any point. - The Hydrogen Sonata

Taking from this rather long fragment a few observations:

- In the majority of the simulations made in the Culture universe, the more complex processes "like public opinion or reactions of alien cultures" are usually modeled not by explicitly recreating the environments in which they occur, such as the alien civilisations in question, but rather by creating analytical models. Those models are also made with the efficiency of computations being taken in account.

With this in mind one could assume that the Minds will also utilize similar methods in the "Infinite fun space", utilising analytical models to depict the more complex properties of their imagined universes.

- The Minds do find sustaining detailed simulations of individual civilisations, of scale characteristic for the Culture's Milky Way galaxy, to be a non-trivial strain on their resources. Otherwise the whole problem of needing to keep them running after the purpose of a given simulation was achieved, and the long-term sustainability of those, wouldn't be present.

If one wants to play with some estimates here, then it is possible to make some observations here. Let's assume here that by civilisation one's means an entity of the scale of non-Mind population of the Culture, that is one with around 5*10^13 individuals.

The absolute need to live in such cities or even such buildings had long since passed, unless you were cautious to the point of neuroticism, even paranoia, but the fashion still ebbed and flowed a little and throughout the fifty trillion people and many millions of Orbitals in the Culture there would always be enough people and Orbitals who still liked the idea for it never entirely to disappear. - Surface Detail

Assuming that to simulate an average mind of the citizen of this hypothetical civilisation, along with all of its sensory inputs, one would need 10^9 times more operations than conducted in a modern Human mind, that is 10^27 operations per second, then the total computing power needed to simulate all those individuals and their environment, would be on the order of 5 * 10^40 operations per second.

That is a value which is roughly 10 billion times smaller than the estimates of the Gamma ray computer performance. If Minds did have comparable computing capabilities then keeping around tens of millions of simulations like this would be trivial to them. The fact that it isn't indicates them having lower processing capabilities than this.

If you don't want to read all that, then TLDR- Culture Minds are billions of times smaller than the estimates of Gamma Ray Computers, who in turn are near infinitely weaker than a CTC. Closed Timeline Curve Computers stomps Moon Cell, Warrior Entity, Culture Minds, Reading Thoth 78 together with trivial ease. Negative processing time goes brrr....

Op pussied out of placing Plank-Zero AI or Anti-Xeelee
Both are infinite multiversal computers, so placing them anywhere near Worm, ToAru, Nasuverse is just a stomp thread
Toaru people, what hell is Thoth-78 and what did Karachi smoke when writing the name?
The meaning has already been explained but Kamachi takes alot of inspiration from IRL Kaballah and mysticism, names there tend to be weird- then again, the guy came up with monstrosities like Queen Elizard and Alice Anotherbible.

He's known for many things, a good naming sense was never one of them.
 
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Surprisingly, even old and outdated Xeelee computers such as the Gamma Ray Processor are far superior to Culture Minds when it comes to sheer number crunching and processing power-


They literally operate at the Bekenstien's Bound and are capable of 10^51 operations/second. They are unsurprisingly the most powerful computers designed as per known physics, and to put the number perspective- simulating universes to a reasonable resolution is within the scope of 10^51 FLOP/10^31 memory machine which is orders of magnitude lower than a Gamma Ray Processor. Xeelee is a hard sci-fi where the scale is done right and it shows.

I'm gonna take from Sufficient's post on this-

1. We are in fact given some specs of the Minds, namely we do know that the full memory storage of an Iridian War era Mind was on the order of 10^30 'characters'.



Now, one could consider that a 'character' isn't exactly a precise unit of memory, but assuming for a moment that they are encoded in a way comparable to the modern char-types, this would translate to at most 32 bits of data per character. A value which would allow for 4294967296 unique symbols per a single character and one that would translate to Minds total storage being on the order of 3.2 * 10^31 bits.

A value which would be only slightly larger than the storage space of an 1 kg ICOG gamma ray computer, and one that would imply a vastly less efficient storage technology on that era's Minds, given that their mass was far more than 3.2 kg.

In fact one could make an estimation of the Mind's mass based on the fact that 0.5 % of its mass reacting with an Earth-like planet, in an antimatter like fashion, would have resulted in said planet's destruction.



Going with the binding energy of 10^32 J and using the m = E / c^2 relation one can come into conclusion that Mind's mass would be equal to around 5.5 * 10^16 kg, making it apparently far less efficient at data storage than Coalition's gamma ray computers.

Now, it is true that Minds do transfer data at superluminal velocities, giving them an advantage in the I/O data transfer. That said, this by itself, does not translate into some specific value of computations performed by Mind per second and thus doesn't really tell us anything about Mind's overall computational capabilities.

I guess that one could make some estimations if one was to know the physical size of Minds, and then also use the total number of bits in its memory and the typical, sustainable, speeds of objects achievable with Culture's understanding of hyperspace, but any such estimation would be rather shaky to say the least. For once it would assume that Minds can in fact operate efficiently on all bits making up its memory, or even just a large portion of them, at a given time frame dt.

2. The idea that Minds simulate entire universes loses basically all of its usability, as far as any comparison goes, when one takes into account the fact that we don't have any data on the level of detail, as well as the actual scope, which those simulations do have. You have mentioned here the notion that the Minds were avoiding conditions which could give rise to sentient life in those types of simulations, but this is simply never mentioned in the context of the 'infinite fun space'.



I guess that one could attempt to infer something from the notion that the universes that the Minds were able to simulate were both large and complex enough to predict the existence life, but at the same time you don't need anything close to the 'complete' recreation of a universe in order to answer whenever it could be inhabited by something.

For instance one could image a simulation with varying levels of complexity, from the very 'low resolution' one of the evolution of matter on intergalactic and interstellar scopes, not so different from RL constructs of this type, to a more detailed one that would model the behaviour of matter on, say, a planet's surface.

Putting this aside, the notion of the simulations gaining consciousness is brought up in a rather different context.


Taking from this rather long fragment a few observations:

- In the majority of the simulations made in the Culture universe, the more complex processes "like public opinion or reactions of alien cultures" are usually modeled not by explicitly recreating the environments in which they occur, such as the alien civilisations in question, but rather by creating analytical models. Those models are also made with the efficiency of computations being taken in account.

With this in mind one could assume that the Minds will also utilize similar methods in the "Infinite fun space", utilising analytical models to depict the more complex properties of their imagined universes.

- The Minds do find sustaining detailed simulations of individual civilisations, of scale characteristic for the Culture's Milky Way galaxy, to be a non-trivial strain on their resources. Otherwise the whole problem of needing to keep them running after the purpose of a given simulation was achieved, and the long-term sustainability of those, wouldn't be present.

If one wants to play with some estimates here, then it is possible to make some observations here. Let's assume here that by civilisation one's means an entity of the scale of non-Mind population of the Culture, that is one with around 5*10^13 individuals.



Assuming that to simulate an average mind of the citizen of this hypothetical civilisation, along with all of its sensory inputs, one would need 10^9 times more operations than conducted in a modern Human mind, that is 10^27 operations per second, then the total computing power needed to simulate all those individuals and their environment, would be on the order of 5 * 10^40 operations per second.

That is a value which is roughly 10 billion times smaller than the estimates of the Gamma ray computer performance. If Minds did have comparable computing capabilities then keeping around tens of millions of simulations like this would be trivial to them. The fact that it isn't indicates them having lower processing capabilities than this.

If you don't want to read all that, then TLDR- Culture Minds are billions of times smaller than the estimates of Gamma Ray Computers, who in turn are near infinitely weaker than a CTC. Closed Timeline Curve Computers stomps Moon Cell, Warrior Entity, Culture Minds, Reading Thoth 78 together with trivial ease. Negative processing time goes brrr....


Both are infinite multiversal computers, so placing them anywhere near Worm, ToAru, Nasuverse is just a stomp thread

The meaning has already been explained but Kamachi takes alot of inspiration from IRL Kaballah and mysticism, names there tend to be weird- then again, the guy came up with monstrosities like Queen Elizard and Alice Anotherbible.

He's known for many things, a good naming sense was never one of them.

Darth when someone asks about this setting:

Working Kermit The Frog GIF
 
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