AllForOne
Illustrious
That's the complicated part haha. Its either explained through higher dimensions or simply something greater than time and space as we know it.
Everything past multiversal is theoretical anyway.
Do we need a new Tiering System for Multiversal Characters and Beyond
- Thread starter OtherGalaxy
- Start date
Everything past multiversal is theoretical anyway.
imo i think we need to decide on the terms first, for example, do we consider the DB universe a multiverse or universe+ for vs purposes?
I mean, the macrocosm of Universe 7, that is each dimension that makes it up, is confirmed to be separated by dimensional boundaries, even though they seemingly share a flow of time(except Heaven or the Supreme Kai realm. Can't recall which, but one was stated, I believe, to either have a different flow of time, or no time at all.)
In essence, Universe 7 in its entirety should be classed as a small multiverse, based on that alone, but I can understand peeps being hesitant going down that road. Uni+ is kinda like the safe low-end that's acceptable and not controversial(at least not to peeps with two brain cells to rub together, anyway.
)
RyugaKishatu
Member
The Afterlife (Otherworld) is stated to be hermetically sealed off from the Living Universe, in some cases it is stated to be a space with no time at all, and in other cases it's stated to be a dimensionally transcendent realm over the Living World (transcendence in this context isn't referring to spiritual transcendence). All in all, it's safe to say that it is supposed to be a different space-time compared to the Living Universe, this is especially true if you use anime statements.I mean, the macrocosm of Universe 7, that is each dimension that makes it up, is confirmed to be separated by dimensional boundaries, even though they seemingly share a flow of time(except Heaven or the Supreme Kai realm. Can't recall which, but one was stated, I believe, to either have a different flow of time, or no time at all.)
In essence, Universe 7 in its entirety should be classed as a small multiverse, based on that alone, but I can understand peeps being hesitant going down that road. Uni+ is kinda like the safe low-end that's acceptable and not controversial(at least not to peeps with two brain cells to rub together, anyway.
The Kaioshin Realm is flat out stated to be a separate temporal world by Shin himself and it exists "outside" the main macrocosm so it's safe to call it a separate space-time as well.
With all the evidence I've seen, I personally agree with placing such structures at Multiversal ranges. A multiverse made up of 2-3 universes (or universe-sized bodies), essentially. Could be higher depending on how you interpret Hell and Demon Realm (more info with Daima) but that seems like the best interpretation to me. Not too low and not too high.
RyugaKishatu
Member
I have the answer. I joined the forum precisely to answer this problem as I've been a proponent of revamping the system greatly ever since I joined OBD. Here's how I think we should imagine Multiverses, or spaces larger than Universes in general.
Let's start with a basic example. Take 2 0-dimensional objects, points basically. It is easy to see that 2 points are separated by (or in this case, connected by) a straight line, a 1-dimensional structure.
Now take two parallel lines, 1-dimensional structures. They are separated by a 2-D plane (or, more appropriately, lie on a 2-D plane) of whatever size.
Take two 2-D planes/sheets, and they're separated by a 3-dimensional space/cuboid/whatever.
and so on. You can extend this logic to any number of dimensions (in fact, we prove this in my Linear Algebra classes).
Similarly, if we imagine a normal universe to be a 4-dimensional continuum (3 spatial dimensions and 1 temporal dimension), then 2 universes co-existing in a verse, would in fact be separated by a 5-dimensional "hyperspace" or as I call it, a barrier, as that is the logical consequence for this line of reasoning. This reasoning isn't perfect by any means as it treats temporal and spatial dimensions as the same but it is a much better and more nuanced system than what we have currently, it's also flexible with room for changes/improvement.
And this coincidentally fits well with most fiction. Since DB plays an important part in this conversation, I'll use its example. Conveniently, DB has perfect examples to illustrate this fact. If we recall DBS: Broly movie, Broly and Gogeta clashing their fists seems to "break" reality and sends them to a weird dimensions that is referred to as the "Dimension of Swirling Lights". This dimension is hard to explain but in essence, the guys who made the movie intended for it to be a literal higher mathematical dimension and this post explains it extremely well. What I'm getting at is that the DoSL is one of these "higher dimensional" spaces that separates the Living Universe from the other realms such as the Otherworld, Kaioshin realm, etc.
Another great example in DBS comes from the U6 tournament arc. The 12-18 universes in Dragon Ball are stated to be separated by a separate realm/dimension called the Neutral Zone. This neutral zone is stated to exist between the universes, and in a DBS guidebook (I'll find the scan if needed) it is stated to be a separate dimension by itself and is compared to the World of Void and Zenos's realm, both of which are also separate dimensions themselves. This serves as a perfect example to illustrate this. The dimension is also quite large, containing countless galaxies as well as Super Shenron who himself dwarfed multiple galaxies.
I've given here a basic outline of how we should revamp the existing system. My next posts, which I'll get to soon, will be addressing the other two big issues. The first would be destroying 2 universes vs one infinite universe. And the second would be addressing tiers above Multiversal+/Infinite Multiversal.
King of time
Exceptional
RyugaKishatu
Member
Can't believe I'm saying this but Endless Mike would be a good source to include in this discussion.
King of time
Exceptional
@Endless Mike Will you participate too?
I'm not on its face against the inclusion of dimensions that really demonstrate they are a leg up but just warning you that's gonna get the most pushback here because so many of the regulars hate VSB's way of doing things lol
My issues with VSB's system are different though I went into it more detail in the linked post in OP.
Trying to find a solid way to quantify the boundary aspect separating universes/spaces is a good idea though, and I think something that if taken into account will both help provide the nuance this type of tiering needs as well as be acceptable to a lot of the community.
My issues with VSB's system are different though I went into it more detail in the linked post in OP.
Trying to find a solid way to quantify the boundary aspect separating universes/spaces is a good idea though, and I think something that if taken into account will both help provide the nuance this type of tiering needs as well as be acceptable to a lot of the community.
My opinion and not to be so complicated
Low Universe level: Characters who can destroy all the matter in a universe, or who exceed the amount of energy contained in the universe or whose feat is technically still quantifiable with calculations.
Universe level: Character who can destroy the space-time of a universe, since there one enters levels that cannot be quantified with calculations.
Universe+ level: Characters that can destroy universe/dimensions larger than our universe or that are directly infinite, it could also encompass those universes that have dimensions comparable to the size of the universe but that somehow continue to share the same timeline, for example those series that have a heaven and a hell but still connected to the main universe.
Low Multiverse level: Character that can destroys multiple universes with different timelines or a multiverse with a small number of universes, perhaps a universe counts if it has multiple timelines, I suppose it is something that could be discussed because there are quite strange cosmologies in fiction.
Multiverse level: Characters capable of destroying a multiverse that has a huge number of universes or timelines but remains finite quantities, such as thousands or millions of universes.
Multiverse + level: Characters capable of destroying an unquantifiable or infinite number of universes.
This way we do not enter into the autism of the higher dimensions, which in itself is not handled in the same way by all series.
About Megaverse I don't know whether to call it Multi-Multiverse or Massive Multiverse, but either way I don't think it sounds better.
I don't like the term Omniverse because it refers more to "all universes" so any work could use the term and it would have a totally different meaning than how we take it here.
Low Universe level: Characters who can destroy all the matter in a universe, or who exceed the amount of energy contained in the universe or whose feat is technically still quantifiable with calculations.
Universe level: Character who can destroy the space-time of a universe, since there one enters levels that cannot be quantified with calculations.
Universe+ level: Characters that can destroy universe/dimensions larger than our universe or that are directly infinite, it could also encompass those universes that have dimensions comparable to the size of the universe but that somehow continue to share the same timeline, for example those series that have a heaven and a hell but still connected to the main universe.
Low Multiverse level: Character that can destroys multiple universes with different timelines or a multiverse with a small number of universes, perhaps a universe counts if it has multiple timelines, I suppose it is something that could be discussed because there are quite strange cosmologies in fiction.
Multiverse level: Characters capable of destroying a multiverse that has a huge number of universes or timelines but remains finite quantities, such as thousands or millions of universes.
Multiverse + level: Characters capable of destroying an unquantifiable or infinite number of universes.
This way we do not enter into the autism of the higher dimensions, which in itself is not handled in the same way by all series.
About Megaverse I don't know whether to call it Multi-Multiverse or Massive Multiverse, but either way I don't think it sounds better.
I don't like the term Omniverse because it refers more to "all universes" so any work could use the term and it would have a totally different meaning than how we take it here.
Imo not sure about this. Because there are series whose cosmology/numbers of dimensions are higher than fourth dimensional.
Take for instance To Aru, most Esper Teleporters in that verse teleport by moving through the 11th dimension, so that makes the To Aru universe 11th dimensional and the void it exists in 12th dimensional.
So by this standard To Aru universe (not world) would be > a normal universe, even though the toaru universe was specifically created by the big bang and for all purposes is a normal universe.
Just think that such a system is just gonna lead into VSB "my dimensions are bigger than yours" autism.
RyugaKishatu
Member
My future post on Higher dimensions will tackle it. You'll see. It follows naturally from this line of reasoning. So if you agree with this, you'll end up agreeing with it too for the most part. I'll only be covering finite dimensions however.
No, this is extremely flawed reasoning. A verse being created via a phenomenon that's named after the one in our world (and, may even be spoken of similarly) does not mean it has the same structure as ours, especially when we have solid proof that the Universe != our Universe with the evidence you yourself gave above. This sounds like a case of naming fallacy more than anything else. A verse is assumed to be baseline universal in absence of evidence otherwise, but when you have evidence that proves otherwise, that should take priority. Many "universes" in fiction are called universes yet are anything but a normal universe.
I don't think that's where it would lead but even if it does, what's wrong with treating higher dimensions the way they're supposed to be treated as opposed to discard all evidence because we just don't understand it? Isn't that flawed way of handling things why we're having to do this in the first place? Let's not let an irrational hate boner for another website cloud our judgement, please.
AllForOne
Illustrious
They need to be implicitly shown and stated to be vastly superior to the lower dimensions and the same with characters who have feats regarding them. Just because the number is greater doesn't automatically mean it should follow the VSBW constant that every dimension is infinitely superior to lower ones. Every fiction treats and interprets dimensions differently.
I'm firmly against anything that takes VSBW's approach to dimensions. Include them but don't let them dictate everything.
Uh...
The issue with multiversal characters and threads is the fact that "multiversal" is itself a level with huge differences between the low end and the high end. You can go from Zen-O where there's a small, finite amount of universes with set sizes that can be destroyed, all the way to Elder Scrolls and Transformers bullshittery where there's an infinite amount of infinities stacked on top of each other while still not being enough to be considered 'megaversal'.
Sure, it may sound simple: just have classifications based on the size of the multiverse! But there's also the issue that arises in that multiverses are just, well, multiple universes. When we don't have anything of the sort for any other level (we don't have multi-city level, for example). And the power needed to bust multiple universe depends entirely on the power needed to bust the universe in question, since in most cases "multiversal" is mostly a range question.
Usually universes and the like are assumed to be finite unless they're proven or stated to be infinite. Which is usually understandable. But there are also universes with dimensions that rest alongside them or other timelines or what have you. And sometimes those themselves are infinite. And because of the nature of infinity, it's pretty easy to assume that busting multiple, finite universes isn't as impressive as busting an infinite universe with infinite timelines attached to it or whatever.
So far my propsal is something along the lines of this, maybe not with the exact names or terms but:
Low Universal - The ability to destroy a finite universe or perform a feat on a similar level. The Big Bang acts as a baseline, as our real world universe is considered to have a set, definitive size.
High Universal - The ability to destroy a finite universe with parallel dimensions or timelines that are part of it, or perform a feat on a similar level.
Low Infinite Universal - The ability to destroy a universe of infinite size or perform a feat on a similar level.
High Infinite Universal - The ability to destroy a universe of infinite size with parallel dimensions or timelines part of it which are also infinite in size, or perform a feat on a similar level.
Multiversal is a complicated area (like this thread isn't already at 30+ posts) but generally it's more reasonable to assume it's more of a range thing... until it's not. Because you can bust an infinite universe with infinite timelines of infinite size, and it's not going to be as strong as busting an infinite amount of those in one go, no matter how you put it. And in the same way busting multiple universes in one go is more impressive than busting only one. And given that busting a finite amount of something isn't as impressive as busting an infinite amount of something? It stands to reason with this proposal that Multiversal can sit in between the Finite and Infinite Universal levels, with an Infinite Multiversal level above the Infinite Universal levels. After that we can deal with Megaversal shit and whatever because that's usually the point where things start to go way overboard in terms of autism.
Sure, it's hard to avoid VSBW terms and autism when we get to this stage but that's also because we're at the point when getting this specific about stuff is the only way threads of this power level can be resolved since everything is based less on what the characters can do and more on how big the cosmology is.
Or maybe I'm just an idiot and the correct answer is Goku >>>> whatever power level your guy is at idfk
Sure, it may sound simple: just have classifications based on the size of the multiverse! But there's also the issue that arises in that multiverses are just, well, multiple universes. When we don't have anything of the sort for any other level (we don't have multi-city level, for example). And the power needed to bust multiple universe depends entirely on the power needed to bust the universe in question, since in most cases "multiversal" is mostly a range question.
Usually universes and the like are assumed to be finite unless they're proven or stated to be infinite. Which is usually understandable. But there are also universes with dimensions that rest alongside them or other timelines or what have you. And sometimes those themselves are infinite. And because of the nature of infinity, it's pretty easy to assume that busting multiple, finite universes isn't as impressive as busting an infinite universe with infinite timelines attached to it or whatever.
So far my propsal is something along the lines of this, maybe not with the exact names or terms but:
Low Universal - The ability to destroy a finite universe or perform a feat on a similar level. The Big Bang acts as a baseline, as our real world universe is considered to have a set, definitive size.
High Universal - The ability to destroy a finite universe with parallel dimensions or timelines that are part of it, or perform a feat on a similar level.
Low Infinite Universal - The ability to destroy a universe of infinite size or perform a feat on a similar level.
High Infinite Universal - The ability to destroy a universe of infinite size with parallel dimensions or timelines part of it which are also infinite in size, or perform a feat on a similar level.
Multiversal is a complicated area (like this thread isn't already at 30+ posts) but generally it's more reasonable to assume it's more of a range thing... until it's not. Because you can bust an infinite universe with infinite timelines of infinite size, and it's not going to be as strong as busting an infinite amount of those in one go, no matter how you put it. And in the same way busting multiple universes in one go is more impressive than busting only one. And given that busting a finite amount of something isn't as impressive as busting an infinite amount of something? It stands to reason with this proposal that Multiversal can sit in between the Finite and Infinite Universal levels, with an Infinite Multiversal level above the Infinite Universal levels. After that we can deal with Megaversal shit and whatever because that's usually the point where things start to go way overboard in terms of autism.
Sure, it's hard to avoid VSBW terms and autism when we get to this stage but that's also because we're at the point when getting this specific about stuff is the only way threads of this power level can be resolved since everything is based less on what the characters can do and more on how big the cosmology is.
Or maybe I'm just an idiot and the correct answer is Goku >>>> whatever power level your guy is at idfk
King of time
Exceptional
accept it paxUh...
Last edited:
AllForOne
Illustrious
I really think its just a matter of a concept of between either 5D space or 'void-space' for lack of a better term. Whatever may separate universes.The issue with multiversal characters and threads is the fact that "multiversal" is itself a level with huge differences between the low end and the high end. You can go from Zen-O where there's a small, finite amount of universes with set sizes that can be destroyed, all the way to Elder Scrolls and Transformers bullshittery where there's an infinite amount of infinities stacked on top of each other while still not being enough to be considered 'megaversal'.
Sure, it may sound simple: just have classifications based on the size of the multiverse! But there's also the issue that arises in that multiverses are just, well, multiple universes. When we don't have anything of the sort for any other level (we don't have multi-city level, for example). And the power needed to bust multiple universe depends entirely on the power needed to bust the universe in question, since in most cases "multiversal" is mostly a range question.
Usually universes and the like are assumed to be finite unless they're proven or stated to be infinite. Which is usually understandable. But there are also universes with dimensions that rest alongside them or other timelines or what have you. And sometimes those themselves are infinite. And because of the nature of infinity, it's pretty easy to assume that busting multiple, finite universes isn't as impressive as busting an infinite universe with infinite timelines attached to it or whatever.
So far my propsal is something along the lines of this, maybe not with the exact names or terms but:
Low Universal - The ability to destroy a finite universe or perform a feat on a similar level. The Big Bang acts as a baseline, as our real world universe is considered to have a set, definitive size.
High Universal - The ability to destroy a finite universe with parallel dimensions or timelines that are part of it, or perform a feat on a similar level.
Low Infinite Universal - The ability to destroy a universe of infinite size or perform a feat on a similar level.
High Infinite Universal - The ability to destroy a universe of infinite size with parallel dimensions or timelines part of it which are also infinite in size, or perform a feat on a similar level.
Multiversal is a complicated area (like this thread isn't already at 30+ posts) but generally it's more reasonable to assume it's more of a range thing... until it's not. Because you can bust an infinite universe with infinite timelines of infinite size, and it's not going to be as strong as busting an infinite amount of those in one go, no matter how you put it. And in the same way busting multiple universes in one go is more impressive than busting only one. And given that busting a finite amount of something isn't as impressive as busting an infinite amount of something? It stands to reason with this proposal that Multiversal can sit in between the Finite and Infinite Universal levels, with an Infinite Multiversal level above the Infinite Universal levels. After that we can deal with Megaversal shit and whatever because that's usually the point where things start to go way overboard in terms of autism.
Sure, it's hard to avoid VSBW terms and autism when we get to this stage but that's also because we're at the point when getting this specific about stuff is the only way threads of this power level can be resolved since everything is based less on what the characters can do and more on how big the cosmology is.
Or maybe I'm just an idiot and the correct answer is Goku >>>> whatever power level your guy is at idfk
When we consider somebody universal are we also saying they can destroy the entire history of that universe? Hence the space-time continuum? Or is that something else entirely? I've always assumed the aforementioned as true.
Low Universe level might be good for destroying the matter + space but not the time of a single universe.
Never statedaccept it pax
Making this post do I don't forget my train of thought
I think something like Top's idea makes the most sense I just really don't like having to put Infinite in the actual tier name
Anyone who can destroy the cosmos equal to the observable universe or similarly cannot destroy space-time and just matter - downgraded to Low Universe Level
Anyone who can destroy all matter beyond the below and including the space time of a finite universe - high universal or w/e new term for this tier
Anyone who can destroy a finite universe with limited dimensions which share the same space-time - becomes a new finite universal+ tier
anyone who can destroy an infinite universe - upgraded to infinite universal or w/e new term for this tier
Anyone who can destroy a infinite universe with limited dimensions which share the same space-time - becomes a new infinite universal+ tier
Anyone who can destroy universes with multiple distinct timelines or multiple universes with own space-time - upgraded to Low Multiverse level
repeat the above for High Multiverse level, finite multiversal, infinite multiversal or something like that, this is technically a placeholder post just so I don't forget this
I think something like Top's idea makes the most sense I just really don't like having to put Infinite in the actual tier name
Anyone who can destroy the cosmos equal to the observable universe or similarly cannot destroy space-time and just matter - downgraded to Low Universe Level
Anyone who can destroy all matter beyond the below and including the space time of a finite universe - high universal or w/e new term for this tier
Anyone who can destroy a finite universe with limited dimensions which share the same space-time - becomes a new finite universal+ tier
anyone who can destroy an infinite universe - upgraded to infinite universal or w/e new term for this tier
Anyone who can destroy a infinite universe with limited dimensions which share the same space-time - becomes a new infinite universal+ tier
Anyone who can destroy universes with multiple distinct timelines or multiple universes with own space-time - upgraded to Low Multiverse level
repeat the above for High Multiverse level, finite multiversal, infinite multiversal or something like that, this is technically a placeholder post just so I don't forget this
Last edited: