Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

[Irradiance]

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat?

Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be about literal speed, though, if that's what you're getting at.

I was right this was going to be a shitshow.




What @Irradiance said, explain please.




I feel like no one ever reads my posts about Toaru.

Okay, first there's the Hierarchy or Kabbalah, this thing.

Tree of life (Kabbalah) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Which is the Sephiroth Tree.



An explanation of the hierarchy.



People can climb through the hierarchy thanks to "soul levels," the higher the level, the higher the creature is in the hierarchy.



Tsuchimikado says that phases are similar to radio waves, they exist on different frequencies and can only interact in the human realm.



Tsuchimikado says directly that different beings from different religions exist, they should be called Phase beings.



Stuff like miracles and Divine Retribution are beings of higher phases interacting with the human phase.


Creatures on a higher hierarchy can't exist in a world of a lower hierarchy, thus they exist in a realm of a higher hierarchy. (See the entirety of OT Vol 4 where Gabriel being dragged down from heaven onto the human realm caused everyone's minds, bodies, and perceptions to switch as an unintended consequence, and I do mean everyone, it was a worldwide phenomenon and only magicians in castles and other protected places were unchanged.)

There are also another four worlds.

The Fall of the Angel is such a global spell that it affects all four worlds, more specifically the material universe ASSIAH, the world of formation YETZIRAH, the world of creation BRIAH, the world of emanation and archetypes AZTILUTH, this spell changes roles in the hierarchy of things, driving the angel from his throne.



Here's Othinus explaining phases.

Not only does she say that Phases contain religions, but also places like heaven, hell and more.



What Othinus has done is create phases and stick Touma in there.



This means that the universes she uses to torture Touma are phases.

And before anyone says that this isn't universal, because I know someone will.

These phases have time, space, cosmic phenomena like galaxies, matter, Earth and its people exist, and even things like fate, life and death, and heaven and hell exist. (Plus universe, world, and phases are all used interchangeably, though this could be because of Baka-Tsuki translations.)







So there exactly like universes.

And note she never says she can't destroy all the phases, because she can she explicitly does this during the beginning of NT 9 and when she gets pissed off and uses Gungnir.

Othinus destroyed the world.


Othinus destroyed the entire universe.



She just says it's easier to create Phases over it.

There's also the Black Phase created after she destroys the universe.


Othinus created hundreds to thousands


to ten-thousands


to millions


to billions


to hundreds of billions


Of worlds/universes/phases in order to torture Touma.

As I said above, Othinus when was finally pissed and done with Touma she pulls out Gungnir which destroys
all the phases.



Which also includes the religious phases. And these phases contain beings powerful to destroy the world like she did.



And Magic Gods are said to be able to paint over and control these phases. Including Othinus which Touma explicitly says in this quote below.





This means that Magic God Othinus scales above these universe destroying gods.

The only phases she wasn't to affect were the Pure World which is a world of pure physics which is what IB is connected to.



And the Hidden Phase which is made to house the True Magic Gods.



Who are again stronger than Othinus to the point that they can only exist in their true forms in the hidden phase or else they'd destroy everything, the universe, the world, all its phases, with the ease of moving an arm or leg.

And I already posted TMG's feats above.

These phases can exist because of the shape of the Toaru universe.



And I don't mean you insult or accuse you but what I really don't get is that you should already be familiar which this @Xhominid The Fool, you make threads for Fate, which has exactly the same concept called Textures. Literally, layers of reality that can also be other worlds like underworlds or Olympus, does that sound familiar to you?

The only difference is that Textures are planetary to solar system level. (Fate literally has an earth inside the earth)

While phases are universal. (Universes layered over universes)

So really I feel like your incredulity is very misplaced, either you aren't paying attention to anything posted on Toaru, or your purposely faking it and pretending you don't understand.

Feel like bringing up the Sepiroth and Qlipoth here is kinda overcomplicating things, though. Don't think the hierarchy of them is the same as the phases frequencies, given how non-christian religions also have phases and Marian can open "portals" from the other phases.
The tree hierarchies are more conflated with the Aeon hierarchy.

Not sure why you bring up WR timeline shenanigans either. Those are a different thing from the different frequency spaces of phases.

 

[Cryso Agori]

Not sure why you bring up WR timeline shenanigans either. Those are a different thing from the different frequency spaces of phases.

Thought that the stretching of the universe was how phases fit, I'll delete it.

eel like bringing up the Sepiroth and Qlipoth here is kinda overcomplicating things, though. Don't think the hierarchy of them is the same as the phases frequencies, given how non-christian religions also have phases and Marian can open "portals" from the other phases.
The tree hierarchies are more conflated with the Aeon hierarchy.

Nah, they also conflate with phases, Gabriel was fucking up the human world with his existence because he's supposed to exist on a higher plane. And the Gods Marian summons would've done the same thing if she hadn't placed a barrier.

Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be about literal speed, though, if that's what you're getting at.

I mean, the spell is supposed to be equal to Gungnir which can destroy the entire universe...

Also in NT 18 apparently Corozon gets sent to Niang-Niang's world where she becomes her 'toy'. If the wiki is correct so I was wondering if that gave the TMG's any feats.

 

[Cryso Agori]

Also here's the cite for Corozon's infinite acceleration attack.

“Not good, human.”

Othinus whispered from his shoulder.

She was a complete Magic God, a human who had risen to the utter mastery of magic. And in exchange for losing all that power, she had been given the stabilized form of a palm-sized fairy.

That may have been why she understood.

This was a warning from the god who informed warriors of their death, so it carried quite a bit of danger.

“She is the same as me right now!! She is not an ongoing magical phenomenon! She is a paranormal being that has already acquired the final result of a physical body! Just like you can’t restore burned paper by touching the ashes, your Imagine Breaker cannot defeat her!!”

“I am a demon, but not from the Qliphoth where the forces of evil gather. I am the Great Demon hidden by the holy Sephiroth. I dwell in the same abyss as Da’at.”

The unbroken illusion produced a dreadful straining noise as it slowly moved before his eyes.

She held her left hand straight forward and pulled her right hand back.

And, as if overpowered, it was Kamijou Touma who took a step back.

“Every number is the same. My right hand contains Nuit of Resurrection. Watch as the possibilities expand and surpass the bounds of the finite. My left hand contains Hadit of Vengeance. The smallest point gathers and concentrates all forces to create a single meaning. Thus, an attack shall be released from the infinite acceleration of the Circle of Ra-Hoor-Khuit and shall appear on the surface layer of this world.”

Now, did Kamijou Touma realize that was the pose for wielding a rapier?

And before even that, what was the fate of one who had thoughtlessly touched an untouchable taboo?

Lola Stuart, Great Demon Coronzon, moved her lips in a bewitching and mechanical way.

No.

A different face clearly appeared from her long, long blonde hair.

“Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe him in thy power.”

It happened suddenly.

“No!”

Kamijou Touma must not have had much of a choice.

But the small god managed to direct a shout of despair toward the swiftly moving boy.

“Wait, human!! The world’s reference point is not enough to suppress this attack!!”

Yes.

Magic God Othinus had once obliterated Kamijou Touma’s body with the brute force of her crossbow.

A moment later, everyone witnessed that instant.

With a dull sound, that right hand and Kamijou Touma himself were utterly destroyed.

 

[Cryso Agori]

Also how strong was the big bang Genis created? Aleister Crowley has this.

“An aerial support…Big Bang Bomb!!!???”

This was only targeted at the Mimetic Predators crawling around the area. And they had the misfortune to be biologically based instead of being inorganic weapons. They too could “picture” the weapon, so it was drawn with hopeless detail in the back of their minds. There was an explosion that only they could sense.

That 10-44 seconds may have been more valuable than an eternity.

Cold rain continued to pour down on the late night parking lot. Physically, not a single leaf floating in a puddle was harmed and not a drop of water was evaporated, but hundreds, thousands, or tens of thousands of organism weapons were blown into the air, swept away, vaporized, and thoroughly contaminated to the last cell. This was not just on a planetary scale. This blew away the entire “world” including every last galaxy and nebula. For those chosen as a target, there was no escape. The meaning of what was “possible” was cruelly distorted. This far exceeded a neutron bomb or pure fusion bomb and added a much-too-evil attack to human history.

“How naive.”

But Aleister whispered.

That severe human had more to say.

“Blasting Rod. In other words, that power will be multiplied tenfold from my opponent’s point of view.”

She finally exceeded the limits of the existing universe.

This had originally been a secret technique meant to take on every last Magic God at once. Even if the one taking the damage had a limit to their imagination, her enemy’s mind would be mercilessly blown away by enough energy to create the universe ten times over.

And he/she wasn't able to defeat the infinitely weakened TMG's with this.

With Niang-Niang, it was hard to tell whether she was joking or not.

…And she was apparently losing on purpose.

Not even Aleister Crowley thought she could drive off a Magic God without the support of a true A.A.A. and without help from Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass. It would be hard to pull off with just the Blasting Rod that strengthened the power of her magic to ten times what the target thought it was.

 

[Cryso Agori]

Also here's the cite for Corozon's infinite acceleration attack.

Forgot this.

Here's the cite that it's on the level of Gungnir.

She gathered strength in her arms while posing as if holding an invisible rapier.

This was the new system of techniques to control great power that had ruled the world since the Last Judgment of 1904 if Aleister Crowley was to be believed.

“Every number is the same. My right hand contains Nuit of Resurrection. Watch as the possibilities expand and surpass the bounds of the finite. My left hand contains Hadit of Vengeance. The smallest point gathers and concentrates all forces to create a single meaning. Thus, an attack shall be released from the infinite acceleration of the Circle of Ra-Hoor-Khuit and shall appear on the surface layer of this world.”

This was the ultimate attack that rivaled a Magic God’s lance and had utterly destroyed a certain boy despite the presence of Imagine Breaker.

 

[Flowering Knight]

All this arguing when you could just sit down and think about the fairness of pitting a universal+ character against a planet level series

 

[Cryso Agori]

All this arguing when you could just sit down and think about the fairness of pitting a universal+ character against a planet level series

…

I’m not falling for your bait.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

I mean when we end up having to somehow believe Universal Phases despite the author saying there is no other Universes and at this point, anything can be a Phase... then how is anyone supposed to take that seriously?

 

[Cryso Agori]

I mean when we end up having to somehow believe Universal Phases despite the author saying there is no other Universes and at this point, anything can be a Phase... then how is anyone supposed to take that seriously?

And Fate has a magical version of planet earth inside of itself with it’s entrance being a dragon head.

How is anyone supposed to take that seriously?

Toaru has other worlds that can be created through World Rejector because ‘universe stretchy rubberband’.

Suspend your belief and disbelief a little is what I’m saying.

Also the worldbuilding of Toaru, while it may seem it weird, still follows the rules of its own internal logic.

So even if the phase=universe thing doesn’t make sense to you because of there being no other universes, it make sense in Toaruland and Kamachi’s head because ‘there layers of reality!’ Despite how they may as well be other universes.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

And Fate has a magical version of planet earth inside of itself with it’s entrance being a dragon head.

How is anyone supposed to take that seriously?

Because it's actually explained alot better without it being so complicated it hurts your brain?
There's a reason I keep asking people what a Phase even is and all I get is multiple points on what it actually is.

Toaru has other worlds that can be created through World Rejector because ‘universe stretchy rubberband’.

Suspend your belief and disbelief a little is what I’m saying.

Yeah no, don't toss that at me as if I only come critical at To Aru when RWBY literally exists for me.
I give series many bones on when it comes down to how something works and how well it makes sense and trust me when I say the following:
To Aru is the one series that has officially stumped me despite me trying so hard to understand any of it despite consistently dipping my toes into shit like Marvel and DC, Dark Towers and Dungeons and Dragons.

Also the worldbuilding of Toaru, while it may seem it weird, still follows the rules of its own internal logic.

So even if the phase=universe thing doesn’t make sense to you because of there being no other universes, it make sense in Toaruland and Kamachi’s head because ‘there layers of reality!’ Despite how they may as well be other universes.

And that's precisely why most of that shit doesn't work in a VS. layout.
It ONLY makes sense in Kamachiland and barely even factors into a VS. debate and it's not like it's the only series that has this problem, but it's the main one consistently cited as everyone loves to use it.

 

[Irradiance]

I mean when we end up having to somehow believe Universal Phases despite the author saying there is no other Universes and at this point, anything can be a Phase... then how is anyone supposed to take that seriously?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Marvel have universes with universe-sized pocket dimensions in them as well? Like, pretty sure it's really not that uncommon.

Heck, Jimmy Neutron's hypercube and Rimuru's stomach are infinite dimensions that are not separate universes.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Marvel have universes with universe-sized pocket dimensions in them as well? Like, pretty sure it's really not that uncommon.

Heck, Jimmy Neutron's hypercube and Rimuru's stomach are infinite dimensions that are not separate universes.

Not when it includes stuff like Mount Olympus and it's Underworld supposedly being 2 separate Universes when that doesn't even make sense within it's own myth.
And yeah, Marvel does it... and actually shows it and then some. How do you know if every single one of those Phases are genuine Universes or is just Worlds? Hoshi can mean alot of things so how exactly would that equal Universe?

 

[Irradiance]

Thought that the stretching of the universe was how phases fit, I'll delete it.

Nah. The phases fit due to the different frequencies. Consider that they are like the imaginary numbers district.

Meanwhile WR world is separate in time, which is why the MGs were so exited about that.

Nah, they also conflate with phases, Gabriel was fucking up the human world with his existence because he's supposed to exist on a higher plane. And the Gods Marian summons would've done the same thing if she hadn't placed a barrier.

Gabriel both comes from heaven, which has a different frequency, and has a higher ranking in the sephiroth. His standing in the sephiroth indeed has much to do with the problems with angel fall, but that isn't equivalent to frequency.

It just kinda can't be directly related as you can't sort gods of polytheistic religions as easily into the sephiroth. (well you can sort them into aeon so you kinda can, but still)

I mean, the spell is supposed to be equal to Gungnir which can destroy the entire universe...

Also in NT 18 apparently Corozon gets sent to Niang-Niang's world where she becomes her 'toy'. If the wiki is correct so I was wondering if that gave the TMG's any feats.

The infinite acceleration thing can just really easily be figurative or mean eternal acceleration or something. It doesn't behave particularly infinite in speed.

Coronzon lands in WR world due to time dilation caused by relativity, yeah. Nepthys and Niang Niang start toying with her, but a Coronzon in bad condition rips open a gap in spacetime and crawls back out of WR world. That's basically all we see of that encounter.

 

[Irradiance]

Not when it includes stuff like Mount Olympus and it's Underworld supposedly being 2 separate Universes when that doesn't even make sense within it's own myth.
And yeah, Marvel does it... and actually shows it and then some. How do you know if every single one of those Phases are genuine Universes or is just Worlds? Hoshi can mean alot of things so how exactly would that equal Universe?

The hundreds of billions of phases Othinus send Touma through are universe sized as they were slightly-altered copies of the main world and overwrote the main universe. Pretty simple.

The mythological phases could be smaller than universes. It depends on how large they are believed to be.

 

[Masterblack06]

I ain't read any of the thread but I will say this. Don't be like SB and hyperfocus on how a verse works and scaling and shit for multiple pages like they do with Fate. It's a fast and easy way to get your verse yeeted into oblivion

 

[Cryso Agori]

Because it's actually explained alot better without it being so complicated it hurts your brain?

You say this as if Fate fans haven’t been arguing over the lore for years.

There's a reason I keep asking people what a Phase even is and all I get is multiple points on what it actually is.

Except not, I literally posted multiple explanations about phases from the books. There layers/dimension of different religions that contain gods/homes are gods and are universes in and of themselves. And magic gods can destroy/create these phases. None of the explanations of phases contradict each other, they just add on each other.

Yeah no, don't toss that at me as if I only come critical at To Aru when RWBY literally exists for me.

Why are you bringing up RWBY? RWBY has a whole host of problems that are unrelated to Toaru.

To Aru is the one series that has officially stumped me despite me trying so hard to understand any of it despite consistently dipping my toes into shit like Marvel and DC, Dark Towers and Dungeons and Dragons.

Didn’t you say you only tried watching the anime? The same anime that cut things out and had a crap S2? I have a link to the books on my analysis thread, just start from OT 1 and go from there, it’s not hard.

And that's precisely why most of that shit doesn't work in a VS. layout.
It ONLY makes sense in Kamachiland and barely even factors into a VS. debate and it's not like it's the only series that has this problem, but it's the main one consistently cited as everyone loves to use it.

Unfortunately Kamachiland logic has to factor into the VS. Debate because that’s where these characters are from. And in Kamachiland, Phases can have stars/galaxies/time/space/concepts and more because that’s how Kamachi wrote it.

In fact Marvel itself also has a many-layered universe like Toaru.

So no idea why Toaru can’t have one.

How do you know if every single one of those Phases are genuine Universes or is just Worlds? Hoshi can mean alot of things so how exactly would that equal Universe?

Because of how MG’s powers are explained, MG’s paint over the world to create phases.

"I don't know the details of this whole 'phase' thing, but you have the ability to freely change the shape of the world like clay. Due to that, you completely forgot what world you originally lived in. You desperately tried to create a world based on the scenery you remembered. You added in and removed phase after phase. …And this was the work of a god. It was probably so close to perfect that no human could tell the difference. But as a god, 'close to perfect' wasn't good enough for you."

After seeing the world she had created with her own power, she had turned back without meaning to.

Given that, she must have feared her own power. If she had truly accepted it with nothing but joy, she would not have tried to turn back.

"In a later era, you wanted the lance and you wanted to alter the world. That must have been because your unease came back. You were concerned that your supposedly perfectly-made world was not so perfect after all. You wanted to work some more on the artwork you had already presented to the public. I don't know what you did to regain the power you had cast aside, but something must have happened for that know-it-all Ollerus to hate you so much. …You longed for the next world because you wanted to add another layer of paint to the canvas. That would explain your internal conflict."

Also as @Irradiance brought up. Even if the religious phases aren’t actually universes, it’s a moot point because Othinus explicitly recreated a universe with galaxies and shit hundred’s of billions of times.

 

[Cryso Agori]

Gabriel both comes from heaven, which has a different frequency, and has a higher ranking in the sephiroth. His standing in the sephiroth indeed has much to do with the problems with angel fall, but that isn't equivalent to frequency.

It just kinda can't be directly related as you can't sort gods of polytheistic religions as easily into the sephiroth. (well you can sort them into aeon so you kinda can, but still)

Except here.

Left on the ground, Othinus loudly clicked her tongue as she looked up at what happened over 100 meters above.

She understood what Marian Slingeneyer was doing, but there was nothing she could do for the boy. The restriction of losing her powers irritated her to no end.

(First, she seals off a limited portion of the world and then she chooses particular phases of different religions or sects and cuts through them.)

The giant that appeared first was one of the Titans that appeared as Zeus's enemy in Greek mythology.

The beast that appeared second was the man-eating beast and god of death that destroyed the first humanity in Aztec mythology.

The demon king that appeared third was the leader of the giants that were said to burn away the nine worlds in Norse mythology.

(Heaven, Asgard, Mt. Olympus, the Pure Land, Nirai Kanai… Cutting away the homes of the gods removes the protection and blessings of those gods and thus releases the calamities being restrained by the gods. In a way, Marian is able to freely choose and wield the different "endings" told of in the world's scriptures.)

It sounded extreme, but the basic technique was not all that rare. The ceremonial grounds used in modern Western magic and the cathedrals and churches of Christianity were formed by dyeing a certain space in the colors of a single religion. No one would pray with an image of Buddha sitting next to a cross and a Buddhist priest would not add talismans or mandrake roots as accessories to his rosary. Convenient elements from other religions would sometimes be adopted, but the simplest way to create the purest and most valuable brand was to maintain a single form and color.

But Marian took that concept to extraordinary levels.

Just as ultra-pure water created by thoroughly removing all impurities behaved differently from normal water, the phenomena created by "cutting off a portion of space to obtain a unique color" had tremendous power.

It was as if she were using a single hand to create and control the refined despair of all the world's religions.

Just as a summoned angel was manifested using condensed Telesma, these rulers of the end were likely masses of the type of power stored in their respective religion or phase. However, these were nothing more than power focused into the images of the calamites people had imagined and so they would not necessarily look exactly like those gods of death or demon kings, but the raw power that presented itself made that fact easy to forget.

"A sword that closes the path to the power of the gods…no, the path to heaven," muttered Othinus.

Before the battle even began, Marian had likely used the sword to cut through the surrounding space and create a sort of barrier around the area. If she had not, the appearance of the different mythical figures would have created a mysterious phenomenon much like Angel Fall. Or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and everything would have shattered like glass.

Having destroyed the world herself, Othinus knew that was no exaggeration.

It’s explicitly stated that the power of gods on the human world can cause an event like Angel Fall or do what Othinus did.

 

[Cryso Agori]

I ain't read any of the thread but I will say this. Don't be like SB and hyperfocus on how a verse works and scaling and shit for multiple pages like they do with Fate. It's a fast and easy way to get your verse yeeted into oblivion

You talking to us or them? Because we ain’t really hyper focusing on anything, it’s just that they can’t accept that Toaru cosmology works like this for some reason.

 

[Cryso Agori]

The infinite acceleration thing can just really easily be figurative or mean eternal acceleration or something. It doesn't behave particularly infinite in speed.

Acceleration really just means how fast something starts or gains in speed. If the sword accelerates infinitely at the beginning then it’s speed is infinite.

“Every number is the same. My right hand contains Nuit of Resurrection. Watch as the possibilities expand and surpass the bounds of the finite. My left hand contains Hadit of Vengeance. The smallest point gathers and concentrates all forces to create a single meaning. Thus, an attack shall be released from the infinite acceleration of the Circle of Ra-Hoor-Khuit and shall appear on the surface layer of this world.”

The Magick Flaming Sword explicitly is released with infinite acceleration.

Nepthys and Niang Niang start toying with her, but a Coronzon in bad condition rips open a gap in spacetime and crawls back out of WR world. That's basically all we see of that encounter.

Ah, if we don’t see how the MG’s toy with her or if she used her spell then we can’t really scale them.

Well they’ll still scale above Othinus and Aleister.

 

[Mr.OMG]

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases.

"Yes, the world is ultimately a straight line like the rubber string nailed onto pachinko machines. There is no infinite expanse of parallel worlds. But at the same time, the world is a rubber string. It can stretch or contract like time or space. The world we know has a surprising amount of waste. It's like using only ten frames when using sixty fps film. No one will notice if you stick some subliminal footage in using two or three of the leftover frames. This is what you wished for, isn't it? You Magic Gods wished for this even though you knew it could never come true. You checked the farthest reaches of the universe and all of the piled-up phases and you realized there was nothing new left. But if it was possible, you wished to leave behind this troublesome world and spread your wings in a new world no one else knows of."