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Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Ok has anyone actually come to a conclusion already or is this just the local jewaru fanboys trying to make sense of the poorly thought-out mechanics and cosmology of the verse?

Cause otherwise, I'd hedge my bets on the mahvel man due to having to live in the same universe as Galactus and Odin.
 
What is "the universe" in these terms?

She destroyed the entirety of 3 dimensional space of the main reality + 100 billions of universe sized pocket realities all at once. The former alone would qualify for a universe in most fictions (and is also what ToAru usually calls "The Universe"). So if that is destroying 1 universe + 100 billion universe sized pocket dimensions that is destroying a singular universe + something else along with it.
sir_fire said:
Ok has anyone actually come to a conclusion already or is this just the local jewaru fanboys trying to make sense of the poorly thought-out mechanics and cosmology of the verse?
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Please don't project your lack of understanding of the cosmology on how thought out the cosmology is.
 
Irradiance said:
Please don't project your lack of understanding of the cosmology on how thought out the cosmology is.
Click to expand...

It's pretty evident on what Sir_Fire is stating, you don't need to reach that hard for him to wonder if there is actually a debate here.
And otherwise, I'm sticking with Mad God Genis considering the fact that as we don't have anything showing Othinus is Universal+, she loses in terms of firepower and bullshit Marvel Cosmic Awareness.
 
You know, on one hand I don't care about the vs debate, but on the other I kinda want scans on the universal+ feats Genis scales to and scans that justify the scaling just so that the other side can put in some effort too.
 
Irradiance said:
You know, on one hand I don't care about the debate at this point, but on the other I kinda want scans on the universal+ feats Genis scales to and scans that justify the scaling just so that the other side can put in some effort too.
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I'm pretty sure that comes from how the Marvel Universe(well a single Universe, not the Multiverse) is handled. I remember that we had scans of that shit somewhere in regards to the overall Universe but I can't remember where.
 
Those other pocket dimensions are still just part of that universe, they aren't anything extra. If they were separate from the main universe by like some Void or pathway of some kind then yeah you'd have a argument for it. But destroying a shit ton of stuff that's still inside a singular universe wouldn't net you anything higher because it's all still just a singular universe
 
Idk man, but having arguments as long, drawn-out, and cyclical as the ones you guys have regarding what these magic gods can and cannot do? I'd say my judgment is sound.
 
I mean, they are separate in that they exist on another plane of existence (or at a higher/lower frequency as ToAru puts it). They aren't just places you could fly to with a spaceship or something. You need a portal of some kind to get to them.

If we wanna get anal about it, when ToAru uses the term universe it usually refers to the expanding space created by the big bang, which wouldn't include the phases. When it talks about everything including phases it says "world" instead (although world is, of course, a vague term and at times also means other things based on context).

Edit: Let me add one more thing, as I just remembered it. Phases are stated to have distance between them and that they move around and occasionally bump into each other. So there must be a void or something separating them.

sir_fire said:
Idk man, but having arguments as long, drawn-out, and cyclical as the ones you guys have regarding what these magic gods can and cannot do? I'd say my judgment is sound.
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The people that have read the series aren't the ones that disagree about the cosmology.
 
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Irradiance said:
I mean, they are separate in that they exist on another plane of existence (or at a higher/lower frequency as ToAru puts it). They aren't just places you could fly to with a spaceship or something.
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Don't really want to get into the debate cause I've already agreed that Genis will win, and that Othinus is universal and not universal+. Just wanted to back this up.

From Old Testament 4

Tsuchimikado says that phases are similar to radio waves, they exist on different frequencies and can only interact in the human realm.

Stuff like miracles and Divine Retribution are beings of higher phases interacting with the human phase.
 
sir_fire said:
Idk man, but having arguments as long, drawn-out, and cyclical as the ones you guys have regarding what these magic gods can and cannot do? I'd say my judgment is sound.
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Also I made multiple posts explaining the cosmology of the verse and the MG's powers and who they scale above and too in this thread.

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

joking aside genuinely curious how this goes
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

joking aside genuinely curious how this goes
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

joking aside genuinely curious how this goes
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases. Yeah, I already posted that but thanks.
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases. Yeah, I already posted that but thanks.
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases. Yeah, I already posted that but thanks.
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases. Yeah, I already posted that but thanks.
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases. Yeah, I already posted that but thanks.
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases. Yeah, I already posted that but thanks.
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases. Yeah, I already posted that but thanks.
onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases. Yeah, I already posted that but thanks.
onelastforum.com

You can read those.
 
Cliffnotes. I don't have the time or the stomach to go through Kamachi's writing.

Irradiance said:
The people that have read the series aren't the ones that disagree about the cosmology.
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And this matters to me how? Just tell us exactly how these magic gods operate and what they do in the world of to aru do so in a clear, concise manner and that will be the end of these trifling discussions.
 
sir_fire said:
Cliffnotes. I don't have the time or the stomach to go through Kamachi's writing.
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Okay.

sir_fire said:
And this matters to me how? Just tell us exactly how these magic gods operate and what they do in the world of to aru do so in a clear, concise manner and that will be the end of these trifling discussions.
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Sure.

First of all the Toaru universe is layered with multiple dimensions inside of it. There is no parallel universes either, just one universe.

These dimensions are called phases, they contain the Gods of myth and their homes. (Heaven, Hell, Olympus) With gods of different religions existing in different phases, so there’s a separate phase for heaven and a separate phase for hell.

In Old Testament 4 Tsuchimikado explains that Phases exist on different frequencies like high and low radio waves, which means that beings that aren’t attuned to those phases can’t sense these phases or these phase beings. (An example brought up in OT 4 is that God could sit right next to a human but that human even wouldn’t be able to sense God because he isn’t attuned to Heaven, or a Demon and Angel could be right next to each other and never know because they aren’t attuned to each other’s phases. It’s only in the human realm there able to interact which each other.)

Also, @Mr.OMG posted the quote in my Toaru Analysis thread: https://onelastforum.com/threads/to...s-discussion-analysis-thread.1410/#post-64794

But from OT 4. It suggests that phases may be acausal or run on their own time, at least Heaven does.

And @Irradiance posted the quote above from New Testament 18. Phases influence the world when they bump into each other.

We don't know how big these religious phases are but if we use Othinus and the True Magic Gods as a precedent then they're the size of the universe. It's also explained in New Testament 10 that these phases hold gods powerful enough to destroy the universe as she did.

Despite that Othinus when she was a Magic God was able to easily destroy those phases so she scales above them. Also whether or not there universe size doesn’t really change her standing due to her phase creation.

Magic Gods are beings that can manipulate the laws of physics and concepts like 1+1=3 or bringing the dead back to life. As explained in the very first volume of ToAru.

And can control every dimension, phase, and particle. As stated in NT 12.

At the beginning of New Testament 9 when Othinus attains Gungnir she destroys everything, the universe turns black with only her and Touma, in one of the many quotes in this thread, from the epilogue of New Testament 10 it's explained that the black world is what happens after the universe and all its phases are destroyed except for one phase, the Hidden World. Neither Othinus nor Touma knew about it nor could Othinus destroy it because it's this super special phase that doesn't actually exist and houses the True Magic Gods.


After destroying the universe and its phases save for the hidden phase, in order to torture Touma and break his spirit, she creates and traps him in different universes of her own design, after going through a few thousand to ten thousand worlds Touma realizes that she isn't creating new universes, but that there still in the same world.

Othinus explains that what she's been doing is creating new phases over the universe. These phases are explicitly copies of the real world and contain things like asteroids and space(Touma states that he got hit by an asteroid in one phase, and was sent out into space in another, Othinus bends space when about to release Gungnir) galaxies (Othinus was said to be able to cause galaxies to collide and return them into there pre big-bang state), stars (Othinus can even use these stars as weapons), time(At multiple points Othinus stops time once and bends space-time like at the beginning of the novel when she fights Ollerus, she creates so many explosions it surpasses the concept of numbers and starts bending space and time like a blackhole, and when she's about to release Gungnir against Touma. She is also said to be able to reverse time.) Matter(It's stated that she could rip the bonds that make up his body.) And dimensions (dimensions as in spatial dimensions.)

And even concepts like Fate (she's said to not only be able to reverse time but also 're-lay the rails of fate'.) And heaven and hell as stated by the Will Of The Misaka Network (The network of sisters that was able to survive the destruction of the universe due to being alive and dead.)

So their functionally universes, which match up with Touma's explanation of Magic God's being able to paint over the world like it's a canvas.


After being forced to go through hundreds of billions of phases, Othinus finally has enough of Touma and releases Gungnir, which destroys all the phases she's created (hundreds of billions). So high-end universal for being able to destroy hundreds of billions of universe-sized dimensions.

She also has conceptual control, as stated before she's able to control fate, and create heaven and hell. In one of the worlds, she creates a fake Touma Kamijou that thought he was real despite not actually looking like him.

After Gungnir is broken she's still able to use her MG powers, because Gungnir was simply a way to control her powers. And starts using the Fairy Spell to use negative possibilities.

Fairy Spell is a spell Ollerus and Fiamma attacked her with before she destroyed the universe, it's meant to weaken pagan gods into fairies. Despite being stabbed by the fairy stake, she was fine and capable of using her Magic God powers during all of NT 9.

Even when letting it affect her in the end she seems perfectly fine. This spell allows her to access her own spells not connected to Odin.

Such as the Phantom Crossbow. A crossbow with 10 arrows.

The first shot falls vertically from the sky and has enough force to easily destroy a planet or two without leaving a crater because it moves so fast that it does not wait for the impact to spread.

The second one slides on the ground.

The third and fourth burst out of the ground and tear to pieces as they try to dodge.

The fifth appears just before the target.

The sixth and seventh collide with each other and randomly change direction.

The eighth overcomes the limitations of the three-dimensional universe, attacks the enemy coming from the higher dimension, and Touma reacts to it.

The ninth completely ignores the concept of numbers, the shot can span the heavens and looks like an infinite number of fireworks, where every hit of a piece of fireworks is fatal.

The tenth pierces the Othinus through and out of the blind spot. The first nine arrows confine the enemy, denying Touma the opportunity to dodge this one. Piercing through his heart and carrying it to the 'ends of the universe' and destroying 80% of his body.

Also in NT 10 Touma states that a single hit from the arrows could destroy the planet so all of the arrows may be planet busting.

Despite piercing herself she easily heals. After that Touma manages to reach her emotionally and gets her to reverse the destruction of the universe.

It's only in New Testament 10 that she says that the Fairy Spell is actually killing her. Even then she's still able to use spells like Bone Boat(A spell that literally rotates the earth and the heavenly bodies to get to places.) And at the end, her Phantom Crossbow.

After fading into particles of light at the end of New Testament 10 she manages to come back due to still being a magic god, as long as 1% of her body exists a magic god would reform, though Othinus was stuck in a pixie form and lost her powers. Even then it is said that Othinus in her pixie form is immortal. Though Othinus wondered if her body would’ve come together without conscious input.

True Magic Gods are even stronger than Othinus, as they consider her a failure. They're so powerful that they must exist in the Hidden World phase because they can't exist in the outside universe or they'll destroy everything (including phases) simply by moving an arm or leg.

The hidden world phase is a world of darkness that doesn’t actually exist where distance, time, directionality, and depth don't exist. And the tiniest gaps in the phase extends to infinity. Despite this the TMG’s have no problem traversing the phase.

Even stuck in the Hidden World phase they still can effect the universe. As destiny and fate is simply the clashing opinions of the TMG’s, even if they don’t actually care about the outside world. They can even doom the universe with simple inattention.

And it is said only a Magic God can hurt a Magic god. And that despite humanity having enough weapons that could destroy the earth ten times over they wouldn’t be able to scratch a Magic god. For example Academy City has the Dianoid, a piece of tech powerful enough to crush earth into the size of a fist.

In order to enter the universe they must divide their power, despite it being a ‘deception’ it allows them to contain their power to a point where the world can barely contain them.

This spell was hijacked by Crowley who managed to calculate non-existent numbers into decimals to enter and destroy the hidden world, and weakened them even more.

Despite being weakened twice, Crowley’s Blasting Rod, a imaginary weapon that turns the damage and force of an imaginary attack real and multiplies it by ten for the opponent and only the opponent, which he uses to hit his opponent with the force of a Big Bang x10, something he created to take on every Magic God at once. Can’t even defeat a single twice-weakened True Magic God.

The True Magic Gods also still have the ability to destroy the universe even after being twice-weakened, they just don’t have the power to recreate the universe.

Except for Nepthys who had modeled her MG powers so it can be separated, allowing her to create one phase even in her twice weakened state.

Also there still functionally immortal even after being twice-weakened as they can’t age, and due to dividing there power into layers, they become similar to a onion or a Matryoshka doll, and that one would need to kill the twice-weakened a trillion or quadrillion times to actually make them dead.

However Crowley has some sort of vibrational weapon used by Noukan that managed to kill High Priest and Crowley killed Zombie the caster of the dividing spell, though Zombie’s death wasn’t actually shown so no one really knows how he did it.

The twice-weakened True Magic Gods also scale above Coronzon, a demon who wields Magick Flaming Sword. The spell is released infinitely accelerating and is as powerful as Othinus’s Gungnir. Despite this the twice-weakened TMG’s consider her a toy and she was unable to defeat any of them.

I think that’s everything, all there feats, statements and who they scale to.

Edit: Actually I forgot something. High Priest was uneffected by being hit with the fairy spell despite already being twice-weakened.
 
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sir_fire said:
And this matters to me how? Just tell us exactly how these magic gods operate and what they do in the world of to aru do so in a clear, concise manner and that will be the end of these trifling discussions.
Click to expand...
I did so long ago. Othinus destroyed the universe and 100 billion+ universe-sized dimensions simultaneously.

But then people had the opinion that the exact ranking of doing that depended on weird minor details, like whether there were more dimensions than the ones destroyed (there is one, but it has no spacetime, is "non-existent" and spatially exists beyond regular space) and if the dimensions are separated from the main universe by a void or something (they probably are, as they are said to have various distance from each other and to drift around and collide occasionally).
These standards aren't straightforward and written down nowhere (shouldn't someone do that?), so I had no way to predictively gave the relevant details. Especially since nobody clarified for the first few pages that universe level+ has clear standards at all.
 
Then just what in the world is the actual universe in To Aru? Were those universe-sized "dimensions" destroyed as big as the actual universe or simply the scale of the universe as observed by humanity?

This shit just sounds overly complicated and self-masturbatory on part of the writer. It would've been so simple if it was actual universes being made.
 

Or at the very least, it's actually laid out in a way that it wouldn't take multiple bullet points to get across...
Like Bleach has 3 simple Planet Earth Sized Worlds and that's it.
Fate primarily does a Layered Planet deal with a Multiverse and timelines that are and aren't infinite due to lore reasons.
Marvel has infinite universes and various huge ass dimensions and otherwise around it, same with DC.
And so on and so forth.

The more I try to understand, To Aru, the less sense it makes and the more infinitely incomprehensible it is.
There's only ONE Universe... but there are supposed to be Infinite Phases that are somehow Universal Size but are stuck within the same Universe... but they are also apparently OUTSIDE the Universe when most of them are inside the Universe and yeah no...
 
Phases are usually dimensions created from human believe. If lots of humans believe in something, then there is a dimension in which that something is real.
So heaven, hell, Olympus, Cinderella and locations mentioned in the Cthulu mythos all exist as dimensions.
The exception are phases created by magic gods, which can be whatever, like for example copies of the universe.

The actual main universe on the other hand is the universe created by the big bang, i.e. by means of physics alone. So the phases were later on created from the main universe via magic.
That's the distinction.

I should add that it is strictly speaking never said that phases are not universes either. The author doesn't specify it, because whether or not the universe-sized dimension is a universe is a stupid question that only us vs-debate nerds would ask.
The author did specify that there are no alternate "worlds" (as that was relevant to the plot), but "world" more than likely doesn't mean universe in this context, but instead the total construct including phases.


If you think about it, it is a bit like the DC Multiverse, where each of the 52 "universes" have countless timelines and dimensions as part of themselves. (well, as far as I am aware. No expert on DC)
 
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