Endless Mike
Illustrious
I recall seeing several scans on KMC of various feats like that, like breaking out of a pocket dimension created by a machine invented by Vandal Savage, or something. I'd have to read the stories in context, though.
On the Superman Clash in Infinite Crisis
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I recall seeing several scans on KMC of various feats like that, like breaking out of a pocket dimension created by a machine invented by Vandal Savage, or something. I'd have to read the stories in context, though.
Maddie
Acclaimed
Just read the edit, he can't channel it into a big bang. In fact it's stated the gem is basically useless outside of its dream manipulation when not inside the pocket dimension. However the respect blogs wankers have it listed never like to mention that.
Phantom Zone is a realm residing in the Godsphere. That's seen in the Multiversity map IIRC and also I could be wrong but it's malleable to strong emotions from Kryptonians and the Godsphere 's bread and butter is higher emotional or platonic concepts manipulating things because space-time isn't a factor anymore. I do believe it is a literal realm, just residing within the Godsphere.
I want to do things on Where is Thy Sting/Day of Judgement and I might just make it a general Godsphere explanation thread including stuff on the New Gods too
Endless Mike
Illustrious
I recently covered a Silver Age story (which are still canon due to the recent retcons) where there was a bomb that was capable of blowing the entire Phantom Zone, and all of its inhabitants, into 'a far distant universe', so it could no longer be accessed from the Earth-One universe. What would you say about that as a feat? (In case you're wondering, no, it doesn't scale to anyone).
Maddie
Acclaimed
I assume this is a 50s/60s story? The Bronze Age at least occasionally tries to take itself seriously but if it's silver age I'd say, Death Metal or not, take it as a plain wrong inconsistency that's not so much retconned as much ignored totally (So like Death of the New Gods or Countdown). It's just Silver Age being Silver Age. The logistics and idea of the phantom zone were not fully fleshed out yet. It's similar to how Mxy was 6-D instead of 5-D some early golden age stories. That's really the best thing I can explain.
The idea of a Sphere of the Gods wasn't fleshed out well either yet, with Apokolipse/New Genesis (Well the emanations of them) sometimes being their own pocket universe, sometimes being very far away from Earth. It's just something better clarified, a retcon. The first time as I know where it's shown to be its own dimension was in New Gods in 1996, but even there it's just a larger realm, not the transcedental plane of thoughts and feelings Morrison asserts it as. I have a way to explain it and it makes sense but that's for a different thread.
Edit: On second thought, the Phantom Zone could work similar to Apokolipse/New Genesis where each universe has their own Phantom Zone too, sort of a lower emanation shadow of the true Phantom Zone which resides in the Godsphere. That explains why other universes in the multiverse has their own interpretations
Really, I've been avoiding Pre-Crisis stories like the plague. I don't know which I am more scared of reading, the dull trash of Post-Flashpoint or the inconsistent neuroticism of Pre-Crisis days
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Endless Mike
Illustrious
Well there were shown to be different Phantom Zones for different universes even in those days. So it would be capable of blasting one of those Phantom Zones to a completely different universe.
I would just like to add that at least with the Earth One Phantom Zone—it’s literally a Sentient Dimension called Aethyr according to the Superman: Phantom Zone storyline
Endless Mike
Illustrious
Yeah, I heard of that, hope to get to that eventually.
Also, another thing struck me regarding the Red King incident. Sure, the power of his Materioptikon doesn't scale to the JLA or anything (since he couldn't really control it or use its reality warping powers as a direct weapon), but you know who it should scale to?
Dream of the Endless, as it's really just a cheap knock-off copy of his original Dreamstone. So something that can create billions of universes is just an inferior bootleg version of one of the artifacts that Dream created. Nice.
Maddie
Acclaimed
I haven't read Sandman stuff yet but simply by the fact that the Endless reside on the same ontological level as Nekron and the Life Entity, the Lords of Order and Chaos, all the Pantheons, and the true form of the New Gods is pretty impressive.
Endless Mike
Illustrious
Yeah they have feats that go way beyond this but every little bit of feats and powerscaling is nice, just to reinforce it.
is it only destiny that is higher than those entities? I was under the impression all of the Endless were (constantly heard Nekron is just one of many aspects of Death of the Endless)
Endless Mike
Illustrious
Destiny is one of the Endless.
They are all below the likes of Lucifer (and likely many others but Lucifer was directly shown in his series to be above them).
Correction. Read Sandman and Lucifer. That's the only way you're gonna get the best out of Vertigo. Hell, I still need to read Constantine. Preacher is great as well.
im referring to the multiverse map being inside of Destiny’s Book which makes him>Nekron and New Gods and was wondering if anything even vaguely close applies for the other Endless
Endless Mike
Illustrious
It's said that Death will eventually take Destiny as the last being to die, unless that's been retconned.
It says she’ll eventually close the door to all creation
Who tf created that Door is another 50¢ all together
Endless Mike
Illustrious
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated she would eventually take Destiny as well.
The Presence would have to be the creator of the door... I suppose.
She’ll be the final Endless, yeah. You’re not wring.
Interesting also that Delirium/Delight knows certain things about creation that even Destiny doesn’t know about
Also @Endless Mike @Maddie
I’d like to note that the version Post-Crisis Superman is fighting is Earth 2 Superman, the original Superman
It’s noted that although he started off not being that strong compared to your current typical Superman, he eventually grew in strength to the point that he could fight evenly with Silver Age “So Fast He Can Enter Heaven” Superman to the point they can double KO each other
However unlike Post-Crisis and Silver Age, Golden Age Superman gets weaker as he gets older, and in the next crossover it was noted he was weaker than Silver Age Superman and Captain Marvel due to age.
Then in Crisis it wasn’t especially noted he was weaker, although in a story just before that it was implied that Powergirl became stronger due to her and Silver Age Superman being summoned in the Bronze Age over Golden Age Superman.
So him fighting evenly with Post-Crisis Superman in Infinite Crisis and fucking with space and time might actually be a downgrade for Golden Age Superman in that sense, considering in his Prime he could trade blows with a Superman that could cancel out enough Green Lantern energy that merged/eliminated multiple timelines with the shockwaves of his punches.
I’d like to note that the version Post-Crisis Superman is fighting is Earth 2 Superman, the original Superman
It’s noted that although he started off not being that strong compared to your current typical Superman, he eventually grew in strength to the point that he could fight evenly with Silver Age “So Fast He Can Enter Heaven” Superman to the point they can double KO each other
However unlike Post-Crisis and Silver Age, Golden Age Superman gets weaker as he gets older, and in the next crossover it was noted he was weaker than Silver Age Superman and Captain Marvel due to age.
Then in Crisis it wasn’t especially noted he was weaker, although in a story just before that it was implied that Powergirl became stronger due to her and Silver Age Superman being summoned in the Bronze Age over Golden Age Superman.
So him fighting evenly with Post-Crisis Superman in Infinite Crisis and fucking with space and time might actually be a downgrade for Golden Age Superman in that sense, considering in his Prime he could trade blows with a Superman that could cancel out enough Green Lantern energy that merged/eliminated multiple timelines with the shockwaves of his punches.
Maddie
Acclaimed
EndlessMike might be able to correct me here. I actually have the Sandman saga book but never read it through. Maybe I should.
While there was no retroactive split between the Silver and Bronze ages of Earth-1 Superman, there is a semi-dividing point with the Sandman saga. I... Don't consider it as definitively important or impactful as Superman's dividing points in Post Crisis (Revival under Jurgens, Mongul training under Loeb, and Infinite Crisis retcon under Johns), however it is a storyline with an explicit mention of a change in Superman's power. During the Sandman Saga, Superman permanently loses 1/3 of his powers.
So Bronze Age Superman is weaker than Silver Age Superman and can be assumed to have worse feats? Absolutely, not. In fact the opposite occurs. Uf you look at all the respect threads, while Earth-1 Superman during the Silver Age is legitimately busted with boatloads of zany powers and hax that make him one of the most versatile characters in fiction aside for maybe Vampire Hunter D, his power feats were actually inferior to his feats in the Bronze Age. Almost every noteworthy galaxy to universal feat throughout pre-crisis happens between 1971 and 1985. I might be missing a few from prior; Time Trapper does appear in the 60s. However, tanking the big bang? Flying to the bounds of infinity? Withstanding the pull of multiple galaxies? All happened right after the Sandman Saga with Bronze Age Earth-1 Superman, after he supposedly lost 1/3 of his powers.
I guess there are multiple ways to interpret this:
1. Earth-1 Superman is stronger in the Silver Age than the Bronze Age. BA Superman had better feats and SA Superman upscales to his BA feats because he's 33% stronger.
2. The plotline of the Sandman Saga was ignored by writers and at best the only advice they took was to make his skillset less neurotic and gary stuish.
3. Superman did lose 1/3 of his powers, but it meant his skillset, not his raw strength. His raw strength continued to grow stronger over the 70s due to the sunlight
If it turns out there are tons of universal feats in the silver age I might be totally wrong, but everything I saw during the Silver Age struck me as ridiculously high into solar system level.
Endless Mike
Illustrious
I'm still going through the Silver Age. But I have noticed that Bronze Age feats do seem to be better overall.