One Piece Tier/Feat/Canon/Toei Discussion Thread Part 3: Road to star level

[Adamant soul]

Luffy was literally able to hit Katakuri in fucking BASE form when using FS.

Yet a FAR FUCKING superior Luffy can't even completely avoid Kaido's attacks, EVEN when he is using FS.

Katakuri would get fucking murked casually 1 v 1 by literally everyone involved in fighting the Yonkou, PERIOD.

 

[Jailor]

Luffy was literally able to hit Katakuri in fucking BASE form when using FS.

Yet a FAR FUCKING superior Luffy can't even completely avoid Kaido's attacks, EVEN when he is using FS.

Katakuri would get fucking murked casually by literally everyone involved in fighting the Yonkou, PERIOD.

FAR FUCKING superior Luffy who got caught by slow zoan Ulti who needed Page One help to catch the slowest SH Nami and Usopp after Franky is still as fast as WCI Luffy and still has same mastery of FS as WCI Luffy. If much slower Luffy who can't shape shift his body can partially dodge TB, much faster Katakuri can dodge TB no problem. FAR FUCKING superior Luffy has much better CoA mastery.

Kid and Law on the other hand would get murked the moment Kaido attacks them with TB to the face. Plot forbids Kaido from using TB to the face on Law, Kidd, Zoro because none of them has high CoO to dodge it.

 

[Magicx2]

He sounds like he’s from Twitter’s Vs Community

Nah,hes from Worstgen

Same forum who put Doffy at YC1,Powercreep dont exist,Zoro has the highest AP in Oni,Current Law/Kidd are YC1+,Mihawk is Pk Tier,Pre-Cog boosts your speed and such stuff

Its worse as Spacebattles or Reddit.If the visual dont fit or the attacks looks boring,you suxs.Newest example is Kidds Bull.BM´s Dura is shit because she got hurt by it,instead of understanding that Kidd bull is just fucking strong

 

[ChaosTheory123]

FS is a big boost. It's the reason why Katakuri was called invincible due to his FS. Seeing 5 seconds into the future is a massive power up. If Kuri Luffy used FS, he can dodge TB partially.

It’s not a boost, it gives the illusion of one by providing the character knowledge on how to take action. It doesn’t increase stats, it’s just taking what you already have and applying anticipation to oncoming actions. Knowing something doesn’t mean you can do something with that information though. The gap needs to be small enough where action can be taken preemptively while simultaneously not alerting the attacking party to the fact you’re deviating from their original trajectory ahead of time. If you’re too slow, the attacking party will notice and easily course correct.

Also, what’s this about 5 seconds into the future? That’s so much waste information the precognition would be pretty useless to apply in actual hth combat. For precog to have a meaningful impact, the closer to the future event your vision is, the less room there is to deviate too soon and make your insight worthless.

Katakuri was considered invincible because his precog allowed him to appear like a logia immune to CoA whereas it was an illusion created by him manually manipulating his form to flow around the attacks before impact. That he employed this against WCI Luffy implies he had no desire to catch his hands even before Luffy got his own precognition to bounce off him with. What that means depends on how liberal you are at interpreting Big Mom using CoA to block G4 Luffy’s attack.

 

[Jailor]

It’s not a boost, it gives the illusion of one by providing the character knowledge on how to take action. It doesn’t increase stats, it’s just taking what you already have and applying anticipation to oncoming actions. Knowing something doesn’t mean you can do something with that information though. The gap needs to be small enough where action can be taken preemptively while simultaneously not alerting the attacking party to the fact you’re deviating from their original trajectory ahead of time. If you’re too slow, the attacking party will notice and easily course correct.

Also, what’s this about 5 seconds into the future? That’s so much waste information the precognition would be pretty useless to apply in actual hth combat. For precog to have a meaningful impact, the closer to the future event your vision is, the less room there is to deviate too soon and make your insight worthless.

Katakuri was considered invincible because his precog allowed him to appear like a logia immune to CoA whereas it was an illusion created by him manually manipulating his form to flow around the attacks before impact. That he employed this against WCI Luffy implies he had no desire to catch his hands even before Luffy got his own precognition to bounce off him with. What that means depends on how liberal you are at interpreting Big Mom using CoA to block G4 Luffy’s attack.

Rayleigh wanked FS users. Calling them among the most powerful in the world.

Seeing 5 seconds into the future is a big boost. Before learning FS, Luffy can't land a hit on Katakuri. It's after Luffy used FS that he can hit Katakuri.

Katakuri without FS struggled against Boundman. The moment he used FS he beat Boundman easy.

There is no waste with seeing 5 seconds into the future. You can predict opponents move 5 seconds before they move. It's a big boost compared to normal CoO which allows you to sense intent only when your opponent tries to attack you.

 

[Magicx2]

Rock Lee: "In other words,even if you understand with your eyes,theres nothing you can do if your body cant keep up"

Thats the best and easiest description and explanation for pre-cog.Its not that hard Jailor

 

[Jailor]

Good thing One Piece is not Naruto. Without FS, Katakuri literally can't dodge Boundman attack he can only block Boundman attack even though he's much faster than Boundman given Katakuri kept up with Snakeman which was much faster than Boundman. The moment Katakuri used FS, Boundman can't scratch Katakuri.

 

[Jailor]

Nah,hes from Worstgen

Same forum who put Doffy at YC1,Powercreep dont exist,Zoro has the highest AP in Oni,Current Law/Kidd are YC1+,Mihawk is Pk Tier,Pre-Cog boosts your speed and such stuff

Its worse as Spacebattles or Reddit.If the visual dont fit or the attacks looks boring,you suxs.Newest example is Kidds Bull.BM´s Dura is shit because she got hurt by it,instead of understanding that Kidd bull is just fucking strong

If Dressrosa Luffy needed Law help to beat Doflamingo while in WCI without power up base Luffy low diffed multiple Chess Soldiers. WOuld you say Luffy got power creep from struggling against Doflamingo into low diffing random Chess Soldiers or Chess Soldiers are just that weak compared to Doflamingo if base Luffy who can't beat Doflamingo without training can low diff them?

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Rayleigh wanked FS users. Calling them among the most powerful in the world.

I’m not denying Rayleigh said that

I’m saying that doesn’t actually discuss the full picture. Those that have it also generally have the raw stats to use it and lift themselves above those otherwise peer to them.

It’s kind of like an extension of skill, just a supernatural flare by reading ahead in the story to give you an edge in how to move your body.

Seeing 5 seconds into the future is a big boost.

Think the disconnect is semantics, but this alone isn’t enough.

Let’s take a step back for example. A human level person could be given this power and do fuck all with it against someone that can shatter steel because they lack sufficient physical might for their knowledge to matter. Similar would be the case for someone able to move like a human vs someone able to bullet time at close quarters distances. Without the raw stats, the knowledge is a novelty at best.

Before learning FS, Luffy can't land a hit on Katakuri. It's after Luffy used FS that he can hit Katakuri.

Sure, but that wouldn’t have been enough had Luffy not possessed sufficient speed to course correct how he tries to hit Katakuri. His raw stats were already sufficient, the future sight just allowed him to employ it more efficiently.

Katakuri without FS struggled against Boundman. The moment he used FS he beat Boundman easy.

You’re not really saying anything to contradict the overall crux of its utility dude. I know this, it highlights how peer Luffy was to him otherwise with the precognition removed. His raw stats were there, he just didn’t have the complete tool kit.

There is no waste with seeing 5 seconds into the future. You can predict opponents move 5 seconds before they move. It's a big boost compared to normal CoO which allows you to sense intent only when your opponent tries to attack you.

Not what I mean, but maybe that was lost in how wordy I can get.

Again, knowing something is coming doesn’t mean you can take action. Actually pretty well highlighted by Katakuri being relatively indecisive in the opening moments of the assassination plan being initiated. There was no action he could take to prevent it from occurring at all, which would have been his desired outcome. It’s what gave Capone enough confidence to go through with it at all;

 

[ChaosTheory123]

If Dressrosa Luffy needed Law help to beat Doflamingo while in WCI without power up base Luffy low diffed multiple Chess Soldiers. WOuld you say Luffy got power creep from struggling against Doflamingo into low diffing random Chess Soldiers or Chess Soldiers are just that weak compared to Doflamingo if base Luffy who can't beat Doflamingo without training can low diff them?

Doffy vs Base Luffy was a in Doffy’s favor, but not so much Luffy was outright outclassed. Kind of a given when he made Doffy spit blood and could otherwise clash relatively even with his physical attacks.

This fandom struggles with understanding just how little gaps need to be to have a fight begin to look lopsided.

 

[Jailor]

I’m not denying Rayleigh said that

I’m saying that doesn’t actually discuss the full picture. Those that have it also generally have the raw stats to use it and lift themselves above those otherwise peer to them.

It’s kind of like an extension of skill, just a supernatural flare by reading ahead in the story to give you an edge in how to move your body.

It's still a big boost given without FS, Luffy can't hit Kataluri yet the moment Luffy learnt FS he can hit Katakuri.

Think the disconnect is semantics, but this alone isn’t enough.

Let’s take a step back for example. A human level person could be given this power and do fuck all with it against someone that can shatter steel because they lack sufficient physical might for their knowledge to matter. Similar would be the case for someone able to move like a human vs someone able to bullet time at close quarters distances. Without the raw stats, the knowledge is a novelty at best.

That scenario won't exist since in One Piece, only among the strongest can learn FS so in One Piece anyone with FS has the capability to dodge attacks from top tier if they can see 5 seconds into the future.

Sure, but that wouldn’t have been enough had Luffy not possessed sufficient speed to course correct how he tries to hit Katakuri. His raw stats were already sufficient, the future sight just allowed him to employ it more efficiently.

Katakuri is much faster than base Luffy though. Katakuri is as fast as Snakeman which is faster than G2 which is faster than base Luffy.

You’re not really saying anything to contradict the overall crux of its utility dude. I know this, it highlights how peer Luffy was to him otherwise with the precognition removed. His raw stats were there, he just didn’t have the complete tool kit.

Non FS Katakuri would still get rocked by Boundman. FS allows katakuri frok getting rocked by Boundman into low diffing him.

Not what I mean, but maybe that was lost in how wordy I can get.

Again, knowing something is coming doesn’t mean you can take action. Actually pretty well highlighted by Katakuri being relatively indecisive in the opening moments of the assassination plan being initiated. There was no action he could take to prevent it from occurring at all, which would have been his desired outcome. It’s what gave Capone enough confidence to go through with it at all;

That was because Luffy was already in a cake. Katakuri can't prevent Luffy from entering the cake since Luffy entered the cake few days before Wedding Cake..

Doffy vs Base Luffy was a in Doffy’s favor, but not so much Luffy was outright outclassed. Kind of a given when he made Doffy spit blood and could otherwise clash relatively even with his physical attacks.

Base Luffy can't do anything to Doflamingo. Base Luffy was outclassed. he had to use Boundman against Doflamingo who was nerfed by Gamma Knife and even then Boundman failed to finish off Doflamingo. Luffy needed gladiators help to survive.

 

[Magicx2]

If Dressrosa Luffy needed Law help to beat Doflamingo while in WCI without power up base Luffy low diffed multiple Chess Soldiers. WOuld you say Luffy got power creep from struggling against Doflamingo into low diffing random Chess Soldiers or Chess Soldiers are just that weak compared to Doflamingo if base Luffy who can't beat Doflamingo without training can low diff them?

G4 Luffy ragdolled Doffy

A stronger Version struggled with Cracker

And Kata took KG far better as Doffy

BoW Luffy got speedblitzed by Kaido,same who was able to keep up with Kuri

Good thing One Piece is not Naruto

Pre-Cog works the same.You see in the future and thats it.If your Body cant keep up,your fucked

 

[Jailor]

G4 Luffy ragdolled Doffy

A stronger Version struggled with Cracker

And Kata took KG far better as Doffy

BoW Luffy got speedblitzed by Kaido,same who was able to keep up with Kuri

Sure but base Luffy lost to Doflamingo. Base Luffy low diffed several Chess Soldiers. Did Luffy get power creep from losing to Doflamingo into low diffing several chess soldiers or you admit those chess soldiers are trash and weak compared to Doflamingo?

Kuri Luffy didn't use FS. With FS Kuri G4 Luffy can dodge TB.

Pre-Cog works the same.You see in the future and thats it.If your Body cant keep up,your fucked

Non FS Katakuri can't dodge Boundman. FS Katakuri rocked Boundman. It's clear huge stat difference is an issue but not much since Katakuri is much faster than Boundman yet he still needed FS to dodge it.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

It's still a big boost given without FS, Luffy can't hit Kataluri yet the moment Luffy learnt FS he can hit Katakuri.

You're just repeating yourself without actually adding anything to the discourse dude.

We have an example of what happens when Katakuri doesn't have his precog up and moving, namely he got his shit rocked by Luffy before recentering himself. The only thing Luffy gaining precog accomplished was neuter the fact Katakuri had his own. As it caught up to Katakuri's, it was almost as if neither of them had it and wasn't worth factoring into the fight anymore. The pair cancelled each other out.

That scenario won't exist since in One Piece, only among the strongest can learn FS so in One Piece anyone with FS has the capability to dodge attacks from top tier if they can see 5 seconds into the future.

Again, the only thing that gives them is the knowledge to try. Its not the future sight doing the heavy lifting here, but their raw stats. The only thing precog grants them is knowledge on how to act. If they're fighting someone who possesses similar ability, this becomes void and its again just left up to the physical prowess.

Katakuri is much faster than base Luffy though.

But he isn't? They had a slugfest for hours before Luffy decided to pull out Snakeman where he was exclusively fighting in base with his newly acquired precognition.

Katakuri is as fast as Snakeman which is faster than G2 which is faster than base Luffy.

You'll find that the Bleach blitzing trope is almost literally poison in this hobby and exaggerates speed gaps in one moment while failing to highlight everyother moment where they were comparatively much, much, lesser. There's nothing of substance to suggest these speed increases for Luffy are even reaching a full 2 times outside of blitz tropes which get immediately contradicted by the other party then proceeding to keep pace with the same Luffy for the other parts of the fight.

Non FS Katakuri would still get rocked by Boundman. FS allows katakuri frok getting rocked by Boundman into low diffing him.

Because precog lets Katakuri play act at being a logia. That is what Katakuri's able to accomplish with his precognitive knowledge. There is no stat change accompanying it.

That was because Luffy was already in a cake. Katakuri can't prevent Luffy from entering the cake since Luffy entered the cake few days before Wedding Cake..

You're missing the point I'm trying to hammer home. Precognition isn't anything more than a tool to disseminate knowledge early. If you're lacking tools to act on it, the knowledge amounts to you watching a trainwreck in real time.

Base Luffy can't do anything to Doflamingo.

This whole "Base Luffy stat gap" thing is just the fandom having a poor conception of how minute these power ups functionally are in the context of this hobby.

Protects Kyros and defends against double Doffy just fine. Doffy is wary of Luffy without using his Haki enough to employ his Armament at all in time for Gear 2nd (he was right to be wary as shown by Red Hawk later on). Double CoA Doffy's assault (blunt and slicing) does little more than have non-CoA Luffy exclaim that hurt and bleed from the slice respectively.

Competently fends off both Doffy controlled Bellamy and Doffy's slice in base with CoA using Octo Stomp. Wrecked the Doffy double with Jet Gatling. After Luffy onesidedly took Belemy's beating? The clash with Elephant Gun and Spider Web doesn't really tell us much (Elephant Gun didn't break it, but Spider Web didn't push it back), but we do know from his dodging that Doffy wanted fuck all of Hawk Gatling.

Now, as for after Doffy ate and recovered from Law's Gamma Knife and Counter Shock (basically Doffy's equivalent to a handicapping that Belemy's beating served for Luffy [as is alluded here], just Luffy's wasn't as severe because he can't pseudo regenerate like Doffy, so it kind of evens out anyway)? You have this entire relatively equal exchange that only ends once Doffy catches Luffy in the air (as in, Luffy can't brace). Kind of nonsense Doffy called his attack weightless given just a second ago he was spitting blood from Luffy... and proceeds to clash with Luffy evenly again? Grizzly Magnum, while too slow, is definitely implied to be something Doffy wants no business catching either.

Only particularly shitty showings for Base Luffy vs Doffy were here and here. Beyond that, what we saw was a mostly even fight with a minor edge in favor of the pink asshole. Luffy was causing his ass pain when it counted and when he wasn't, both he and Doffy demonstrated some form of physical + CoA parity with Doffy holding an edge. Gear 4th was beyond Doffy, but not so much that he didn't take a good beating without notable critical injury beyond the final KO (all of which are in the post here). You're not talking a substantial multiplier, especially for this hobby. 5-10x would be a massive exaggeration.

Base Luffy was outclassed.

Base Luffy and Doffy clashed evenly numerous times. Doffy had an edge, but it wasn't substantial.

We have weight classes IRL that highlight how small differences in raw stats need to be to have a fight go from even to a stomp, this doesn't change when evaluating a fictional brawl.

he had to use Boundman against Doflamingo who was nerfed by Gamma Knife and even then Boundman failed to finish off Doflamingo.

If your claim is that the pain caused by Gamma Knife nerfed his physical might, that'd make Doffy one of the biggest bitches in his tier as far as damage soak is concerned. Also contradicted by him being conscious after even a single Kong Gun, so let's not try to have our cake and eat it.

Luffy needed gladiators help to survive.

Sure, because Luffy was needed to recover his depleted stamina.

 

[Jailor]

You're just repeating yourself without actually adding anything to the discourse dude.

We have an example of what happens when Katakuri doesn't have his precog up and moving, namely he got his shit rocked by Luffy before recentering himself. The only thing Luffy gaining precog accomplished was neuter the fact Katakuri had his own. As it caught up to Katakuri's, it was almost as if neither of them had it and wasn't worth factoring into the fight anymore. The pair cancelled each other out.

FS Luffy didn't neutralize FS Katakuri. Even with FS, Luffy still got rocked by Katakuri. FS allowed Luffy to hit Katakuri but it didn't help Luffy to be as fast as Katakuri.

Again, the only thing that gives them is the knowledge to try. Its not the future sight doing the heavy lifting here, but their raw stats. The only thing precog grants them is knowledge on how to act. If they're fighting someone who possesses similar ability, this becomes void and its again just left up to the physical prowess.

lol no without seeing 5 seconds into the future, non MMA fighter would get rocked by MMA fighter. With seeing 5 seconds into the future, non MMA fighter can see 5 seconds into the future what MMA fighter would hit non MMA fighter with. It;s obviously a boost. Non MMA fighter can beat MMA fighter with FS.

But he isn't? They had a slugfest for hours before Luffy decided to pull out Snakeman where he was exclusively fighting in base with his newly acquired precognition.

Yes he is. Katakuri blitzed Snakeman few times. Landed more hits to Snakeman than Snakeman did to Katakuri. Katakuri mocked Luffy and Luffy used G2 and Luffy still got outspeed.

You'll find that the Bleach blitzing trope is almost literally poison in this hobby and exaggerates speed gaps in one moment while failing to highlight everyother moment where they were comparatively much, much, lesser. There's nothing of substance to suggest these speed increases for Luffy are even reaching a full 2 times outside of blitz tropes which get immediately contradicted by the other party then proceeding to keep pace with the same Luffy for the other parts of the fight.

G2 Luffy can't hit Katakuri. Snakeman punch can hit Katakuri. All we know is Snakeman Punch>>>>G2 movement speed that cant hit Katakuri.

This whole "Base Luffy stat gap" thing is just the fandom having a poor conception of how minute these power ups functionally are in the context of this hobby.

Protects Kyros and defends against double Doffy just fine. Doffy is wary of Luffy without using his Haki enough to employ his Armament at all in time for Gear 2nd (he was right to be wary as shown by Red Hawk later on). Double CoA Doffy's assault (blunt and slicing) does little more than have non-CoA Luffy exclaim that hurt and bleed from the slice respectively.

Competently fends off both Doffy controlled Bellamy and Doffy's slice in base with CoA using Octo Stomp. Wrecked the Doffy double with Jet Gatling. After Luffy onesidedly took Belemy's beating? The clash with Elephant Gun and Spider Web doesn't really tell us much (Elephant Gun didn't break it, but Spider Web didn't push it back), but we do know from his dodging that Doffy wanted fuck all of Hawk Gatling.

Now, as for after Doffy ate and recovered from Law's Gamma Knife and Counter Shock (basically Doffy's equivalent to a handicapping that Belemy's beating served for Luffy [as is alluded here], just Luffy's wasn't as severe because he can't pseudo regenerate like Doffy, so it kind of evens out anyway)? You have this entire relatively equal exchange that only ends once Doffy catches Luffy in the air (as in, Luffy can't brace). Kind of nonsense Doffy called his attack weightless given just a second ago he was spitting blood from Luffy... and proceeds to clash with Luffy evenly again? Grizzly Magnum, while too slow, is definitely implied to be something Doffy wants no business catching either.

Only particularly shitty showings for Base Luffy vs Doffy were here and here. Beyond that, what we saw was a mostly even fight with a minor edge in favor of the pink asshole. Luffy was causing his ass pain when it counted and when he wasn't, both he and Doffy demonstrated some form of physical + CoA parity with Doffy holding an edge. Gear 4th was beyond Doffy, but not so much that he didn't take a good beating without notable critical injury beyond the final KO (all of which are in the post here). You're not talking a substantial multiplier, especially for this hobby. 5-10x would be a massive exaggeration.

Gamma Knife>>>>Bellamy punches.

Base Luffy and Doffy clashed evenly numerous times. Doffy had an edge, but it wasn't substantial.

We have weight classes IRL that highlight how small differences in raw stats need to be to have a fight go from even to a stomp, this doesn't change when evaluating a fictional brawl.

Base Luffy can't hit Doflamingo before Doflamingo was hit by Gamma Knife or without Law's help.

If your claim is that the pain caused by Gamma Knife nerfed his physical might, that'd make Doffy one of the biggest bitches in his tier as far as damage soak is concerned. Also contradicted by him being conscious after even a single Kong Gun, so let's not try to have our cake and eat it.

No it's not. Zoro fainted from 1 hakiless stab. Does that make Zoro a bitch? Stitch helped as temporary emergency surgery but it didn't heal Doflamingo from the damage he took from Gamma Knife.

Sure, because Luffy was needed to recover his depleted stamina.

Luffy would die without gladiators help though.

 

[Jailor]

They had a slugfest for hours before Luffy decided to pull out Snakeman where he was exclusively fighting in base with his newly acquired precognition.

Reread WCI. Katakuri outclassed FS Luffy.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

FS Luffy didn't neutralize FS Katakuri. Even with FS, Luffy still got rocked by Katakuri. FS allowed Luffy to hit Katakuri but it didn't help Luffy to be as fast as Katakuri.

You're arguing semantics when the point of Luffy getting precog was to help him even the playing field to use his already sufficient raw stats to down Katakuri.

lol no without seeing 5 seconds into the future, non MMA fighter would get rocked by MMA fighter. With seeing 5 seconds into the future, non MMA fighter can see 5 seconds into the future what MMA fighter would hit non MMA fighter with. It;s obviously a boost.

Wait, are you talking like an average person? Because you may need to take a step outside of fantasy land if you think an average person, even aided by foreknowledge, would be able to do jackshit to someone trained in MMA.

The average person's biggest lack being a massive lack in pain tolerance, endurance, and the inability to throw a proper punch. Also grappling. Just grappling. I can know what someone's going to do all I want, but if I lack the stats to compensate, I'm going to accomplish little more than fall down with the knowledge it was coming.

Non MMA fighter can beat MMA fighter with FS.

Because, ultimately, humans have pithy stat differences. What breaks my bones have pretty good odds of breaking your bones.

Yes he is.

So, that hours long slugfest didn't happen

Neat

Katakuri blitzed Snakeman few times. Landed more hits to Snakeman than Snakeman did to Katakuri. Katakuri mocked Luffy and Luffy used G2 and Luffy still got outspeed.

You're conflating outsped with some kind of massive gap, which is directly contradicted by the lion's share of the full fight.

G2 Luffy can't hit Katakuri. Snakeman punch can hit Katakuri. All we know is Snakeman Punch>>>>G2 movement speed that cant hit Katakuri.

Gamma Knife>>>>Bellamy punches.

Doubtful, if anything its pretty pathetic an attack even peer to a punch from Bellamy's wouldn't do more than cause an internal hemorrhage that Doffy could basically fix in an instant with silly string.

Your sense of scale is wanting dude, but its honestly not your fault. Most people don't think this way.

Base Luffy can't hit Doflamingo before Doflamingo was hit by Gamma Knife or without Law's help.

I basically hyperlinked the entirety of the fight before G4, play by play and all. Maybe actually address that instead?

No it's not. Zoro fainted from 1 hakiless stab. Does that make Zoro a bitch?

Given the kinds of injuries he has suffered so far? Including literally soaking up all the pain Moria inflicted on Luffy in a single instant?

Yeah, in that moment, Zoro's kind of a bitch in how he's being written.

Stitch helped as temporary emergency surgery but it didn't heal Doflamingo from the damage he took from Gamma Knife.

And this, somehow, robs his extremities of their previous force, because reasons?

People IRL can utilize their undamaged muscles as well as they would when injured, why would Doffy be any different? At best, damage accrued tamps down stamina and little else.

Luffy would die without gladiators help though.

Sure, but that doesn't make Doffy some monolith multiple times his superior.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Reread WCI. Katakuri outclassed FS Luffy.

???

Base Luffy's speed suffices to avoid Katakuri's attacks. Both are using precog. If Luffy is much slower than Katakuri, Katakuri should be perceiving Luffy changing course and correcting the trajectory of his own attacks.

Through great pain, Base Luffy blocks and parries a number of Katakuri's CoA infused punches. This is a no brainer.

Here, Luffy is overwhelmed, but he springs back here to cause Katakuri to spit blood. All in Base.

Here, Base Luffy's punch travels about as far as Katakuri's does. Similar with Katakuri's kick compared to the punch here.

Katakuri's definitely stronger than Base Luffy, but he's not overwhelmingly so to the point where we could consider it actually lopsided in terms of raw stats.

 

[Jailor]

You're arguing semantics when the point of Luffy getting precog was to help him even the playing field to use his already sufficient raw stats to down Katakuri.

FS helped Luffy to hit Katakuri and to dodge some of Katakuri's attacks. FS Luffy still got rocked by Katakuri but not as bad as non FS Luffy

Wait, are you talking like an average person? Because you may need to take a step outside of fantasy land if you think an average person, even aided by foreknowledge, would be able to do jackshit to someone trained in MMA.

The average person's biggest lack being a massive lack in pain tolerance, endurance, and the inability to throw a proper punch. Also grappling. Just grappling. I can know what someone's going to do all I want, but if I lack the stats to compensate, I'm going to accomplish little more than fall down with the knowledge it was coming.

Yes they can. With FS MMA fighter can't hit non MMA fighter. Pain tolerance is irrelevant since non MMA fighter can dodge all MMA fighter throws at him with seeing 5 seconds into the future. You see 5 seconds what MMA fighter will hit you with.

Because, ultimately, humans have pithy stat differences. What breaks my bones have pretty good odds of breaking your bones.

MMA fighter would still fail to hit non MMA fighter if non MMA fighter can see 5 seconds into the future. Stats difference is not the issue here. MMA fighter can be much faster than non MMA fighter but if non MMA fighter can see 5 seconds before MMA fighter acts, non MMA fighter can prevent MMA fighter from attacking him by either dodging or blocking.

So, that hours long slugfest didn't happen

Neat

Panels? Katakuri dominated FS Luffy

You're conflating outsped with some kind of massive gap, which is directly contradicted by the lion's share of the full fight.

Not once in the fight Snakeman blitzed katakuri

Doubtful, if anything its pretty pathetic an attack even peer to a punch from Bellamy's wouldn't do more than cause an internal hemorrhage that Doffy could basically fix in an instant with silly string.

Your sense of scale is wanting dude, but its honestly not your fault. Most people don't think this way.

I think it's your fault if you think Gamma Knife which is more lethal than hakiless Killer stab that KOed fresh Zoro is as strong as Bellamy punches that hit Luffy who is immune to blunt attack and use CoA to reduce the damage of Bellamy punches. You need to up your power scaling skills.

I basically hyperlinked the entirety of the fight before G4, play by play and all. Maybe actually address that instead?

And none of the links you posted showed Luffy can hit Doflamingo without Law help or withut Doflamingo getting nerfed by Gamma Knife

Given the kinds of injuries he has suffered so far? Including literally soaking up all the pain Moria inflicted on Luffy in a single instant?

Yeah, in that moment, Zoro's kind of a bitch in how he's being written.

Not really. Roger died to 2 stabs from fodders. WB knelt from Squard's stab. Doesn;t make them a bitch.

And this, somehow, robs his extremities of their previous force, because reasons?

People IRL can utilize their undamaged muscles as well as they would when injured, why would Doffy be any different? At best, damage accrued tamps down stamina and little else.

Because the stitch didn't restore Doflamingo's crushed organ to once it was.

Sure, but that doesn't make Doffy some monolith multiple times his superior.

Doesn't change the fact without gladiators Doflamingo would beat Luffy though.

 

[Jailor]

???

Base Luffy's speed suffices to avoid Katakuri's attacks. Both are using precog. If Luffy is much slower than Katakuri, Katakuri should be perceiving Luffy changing course and correcting the trajectory of his own attacks.

Through great pain, Base Luffy blocks and parries a number of Katakuri's CoA infused punches. This is a no brainer.

Here, Luffy is overwhelmed, but he springs back here to cause Katakuri to spit blood. All in Base.

Here, Base Luffy's punch travels about as far as Katakuri's does. Similar with Katakuri's kick compared to the punch here.

Katakuri's definitely stronger than Base Luffy, but he's not overwhelmingly so to the point where we could consider it actually lopsided in terms of raw stats.

Dodging attack once doesn't mean Luffy is as fast as Katakuri. In the end Katakuri dominated Luffy so bad that Luffy fell and Katakuri asked Luffy to get up.

Doesn;t make Luffy as fast as Katakuri even if he parried number of Katakuri's punches. Katakuri parried number of Snakeman punches

Luffy spring and caused Katakuri to spit blood. That was the only time on panel Luffy with FS hit Katakuri.

Definitely superior. Katakuri is much faster than base Luffy and as fast as Snakeman.