Dude I was asleep.
Thanks for joining @fiamma all needs clarification is Kamisato and Nephthys exchange about Parallel Worlds
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To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - One Othinus To Rule Them All
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Thanks for joining @fiamma all needs clarification is Kamisato and Nephthys exchange about Parallel Worlds
Hiryuu
Active member
This seems fine for the most part, though there are some things that I don’t necessarily agree with. For one, I don’t think you have to be overly specific or overly analytical in translating Kamisato’s quote there to use it as a justification for a multiversal Toaru tbh. Some might level you the response that this is just semantics and a matter of interpretation/translation. Also, in terms of this specific context, it may not even be all that wrong to say that what Kamisato is saying here is actually true, as it’s supported by another quote from the LN.Magic Gods are Multiversal - Definitive Edition
Alright, let clear some things up, showing irrefutable proof and even more importantly, putting to rest decade long hoaxes about Magic Gods and the cosmology of the verse. All the following quotes are taken straight from Baka Tsuki’s js06’s translation of the series + one translation taken...onelastforum.com
@Paxton @Cryso Agori @Top59 @Hiryuu @Mr.OMG
"Then your problem is…?"
"Yes. That leaves a struggle over resources with the other Magic Gods. We all have the power to change everything, but there is only one world. Think of it like having ten painters but only one canvas. If they each continually try to overwrite it as they see fit, it would develop into a fistfight. Do you understand what I'm saying?"
The golden world Othinus had shown him had only been happiness as she saw it. If there had been five or ten Magic Gods there, they each would have added their own ideas of happiness and come into conflict. As a result, they might have started fighting to protect their own version of happiness.
Simply put…
"If there had only been a single god, there would not have been a problem. But that is not how it turned out."
"So there's just too much power between all of you?"
"Hah hah! Indeed. That is a good way of putting it. We have too much power. And Gremlin is the reconciliation council that was created."
"Yes. That leaves a struggle over resources with the other Magic Gods. We all have the power to change everything, but there is only one world. Think of it like having ten painters but only one canvas. If they each continually try to overwrite it as they see fit, it would develop into a fistfight. Do you understand what I'm saying?"
The golden world Othinus had shown him had only been happiness as she saw it. If there had been five or ten Magic Gods there, they each would have added their own ideas of happiness and come into conflict. As a result, they might have started fighting to protect their own version of happiness.
Simply put…
"If there had only been a single god, there would not have been a problem. But that is not how it turned out."
"So there's just too much power between all of you?"
"Hah hah! Indeed. That is a good way of putting it. We have too much power. And Gremlin is the reconciliation council that was created."
“You can’t. You can’t possibly. Parallel worlds don’t-…”
“Yes, the world is ultimately a straight line like the rubber string nailed onto pachinko machines. There is no infinite expanse of parallel worlds. But at the same time, the world is a rubber string. It can stretch or contract like time or space. The world we know has a surprising amount of waste. It’s like using only ten frames when using sixty fps film. No one will notice if you stick some subliminal footage in using two or three of the leftover frames. This is what you wished for, isn’t it? You Magic Gods wished for this even though you knew it could never come true. You checked the farthest reaches of the universe and all of the piled-up phases and you realized there was nothing new left. But if it was possible, you wished to leave behind this troublesome world and spread your wings in a new world no one else knows of.”
“Yes, the world is ultimately a straight line like the rubber string nailed onto pachinko machines. There is no infinite expanse of parallel worlds. But at the same time, the world is a rubber string. It can stretch or contract like time or space. The world we know has a surprising amount of waste. It’s like using only ten frames when using sixty fps film. No one will notice if you stick some subliminal footage in using two or three of the leftover frames. This is what you wished for, isn’t it? You Magic Gods wished for this even though you knew it could never come true. You checked the farthest reaches of the universe and all of the piled-up phases and you realized there was nothing new left. But if it was possible, you wished to leave behind this troublesome world and spread your wings in a new world no one else knows of.”
What Kamisato is referring to in that quote is parallel worlds as you’d come to think of them in most other works of fiction, like Marvel, DC, etc. Think of the many worlds interpretation, whereby infinite universes exist for every “decision we make”. So you’d essentially have other universes (essentially an infinite number) all with other versions of our main cast. As of yet, those really haven’t been proven to exist in Toaru. Now this may change in the future (especially with recent spoilers regarding Alice that I’m hearing whispers of), but as of right now, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with what Kamisato is saying there.
As far as justifications for a multiversal Toaru go, I think the concept of phases does a fine enough job of providing one. There’s plenty of evidence of them being separate universes with their own separate timelines. If anyone needs quotes for these, I can provide them, no problem. This, I believe, would already satisfy the requirements for a multiverse in pretty much any other series, as far as vs debates are concerned.
Secondly, I think you may be mixing up the term ‘dimensions’ with another definition of the term when quoting the parts with Curtana. Tbh, I’ve never been a fan of seeing authors use the term ‘dimensions’ to refer to other realities (in the context of vs debating), because it is rather vague and can often lead to confusion and misinterpretation. Like are they referring to actual scientific dimensions, pocket dimensions, or whole universes? In the Curtana context, Toaru uses the actual scientific definition of dimensions, as in axes of movement. This is supported by Carissa’s comments about cross-sectional debris coming from higher dimensions whenever she uses Curtana.
It felt something like pottery, but it was actually extremely heavy despite how it looked. Even after it fell, it continued to sink into the black soil.
“Similarly, when a dimension higher than our three dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a three-dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this.”
The second princess rested Curtana Original on her shoulder.
She was not attacking.
Even so, the dimension was sliced apart in the trajectory of her sword and a colorless belt-shaped object fell to her feet.
“This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a three-dimensional world.”
(What…?)
Kamijou was completely dumbfounded.
If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two.
“Similarly, when a dimension higher than our three dimensions is sliced, the cross section appears in this world in a three-dimensional form. As a result, the ruins of a cross section appears like this.”
The second princess rested Curtana Original on her shoulder.
She was not attacking.
Even so, the dimension was sliced apart in the trajectory of her sword and a colorless belt-shaped object fell to her feet.
“This simultaneously severs every dimension at the coordinates whether they are higher dimensions or lower dimensions. It seems the only cross section objects created that we can perceive are the ones that can appear in a three-dimensional world.”
(What…?)
Kamijou was completely dumbfounded.
If what she was saying was true, that sword was a monstrous weapon that could cut right through dimensions which did exist but were more of a concept than anything. No matter how much steel someone used to protect his body, Curtana Original could cut right through the dimension to cleave him in two.
So I’m not really behind the idea that phases = dimensions, or of using Curtana as a justification for multiversal Toaru.
P.S.: I don’t really get why people are bringing up crossover material here. They’re quite clearly not canon are were just made for fun by Kamachi and co, so they’re kind of meaningless as far as scaling is concerned.
fiamma
Notorious
I already posted that phrase above.
"Shincheonji."
The brown-haired boy said nonchalantly, crumpling the empty milk carton as if it were nothing.
"I heard that such a collection of dreams is in my right hand. Indeed, that's right. 'I think it was called the World Rejecter' or something like that."
"...It's impossible. Parallel worlds is..."
"Yeah. It's like attaching a rubber band to a nail-studded slingshot; in the end, it's just a single line. Parallel worlds don't exist infinitely. But at the same time, the world is like a rubber band. It's flexible, like time and space. The world we know has surprisingly a lot of excess - it's like using only 10 cuts out of a 60-cut film. Even if you borrow a couple of the remaining cuts and insert a different movie subliminally, no one would notice. You wanted it, didn't you? Even though you knew it was something that could never be achieved. But you still yearned for it. You 'Magic gods'."
"After investigating the ends of the universe and every overlapping phase, and realizing that there's nothing new left at all. But if such a thing were possible... To throw away all the annoying things of this world and spread your wings in a paradise that no one knows about..."
fiamma
Notorious
The dimensions that Carissa's Curtana severs refer to the All integer dimensions in a physical sense based on Euclidean geometry.
It has been mentioned countless times.
@fiamma Well that settles it. Othinus is infinitely Multiversal+ both with these quotes and scaling to the Tangram in a crossover is it’s equal and True Gremlin, Coronzon, Aiwass, Dragon King Touma, Alice, and a bunch more get scaling to this. Nice way to get the series 20 year anniversary started from a Vs Debate perspective
Any objections? @Masterblack06
Any objections? @Masterblack06
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fiamma
Notorious
You're right.
Since crossovers are non-canon, mentioning them has been meaningless all this time.
However, the situation has completely changed with the appearance of Alice.
In the Index series, the existence of the many-worlds interpretation has only been inferred, and it has never been explicitly mentioned. (Even though Schrödinger's cat paradox is mentioned, and its main arguments are the Copenhagen interpretation and the many-worlds interpretation)
But in the Virtual-On crossover novel, scientists from Academy City who know nothing about magic directly mention the many-worlds interpretation, confirming that the theory exists within the Index universe.
And with the confirmation of the existence of real-life scientists like von Neumann, we can also confirm concepts like Hilbert space, which he advocated.
Now, based on this, we can expand on Mgs and Alice.
Therefore, mentioning it is not entirely meaningless, as it can be used as a major basis for discussion.
fiamma
Notorious
I have expressed my opinion on this matter on other sites as well.
I will share that same opinion here too.
If Aleister can be considered equal to higher-tier characters by defeating a full-power Zombie, then similarly, Othinus completely killed Alice at the end of NT8.
Therefore, I think it is correct to say Alice = MGs, just like Aleister case.
Although Alice was killed while defenseless, she was also killed defenseless by CRC, but easily recovered and killed CRC.
In other words, the Mgs' Phase manipulation is capable of perfectly killing Alice.
As for JVA, it seems to be mentioned as the only means to defeat Alice at the current point in the story, so it is also correct to list it as =.
From here on, the following points are definitely excluded.
In the case of Risk 4 BBC, it is completely incorrect to translate that they have destructive power equal to MGs. The afterword of GT6 means that BBCs are more biased toward destructive aspects than Magic Gods.
This means that while MGs have versatile abilities in all aspects, such as creation, manipulation, and destruction, BBCs only have destructive abilities. It can never be translated as equal destructive power.
Of course, in Aradia's case, it was mentioned that if she keeps amplifying her power, she can even defeat Mgs (it's open to interpretation whether Mgs are at full power). However, that is impossible in a normal confrontation situation. The opponents would not just stand still.
Also, the biggest reason for their exclusion is shown in GT10. The BBCs, whose powers originate from Alice, cannot harm Alice, and Alice can implement all their superior spells as a bridge. That's why the BBCs on Kamijou's side had to adopt a tactic of attacking Alice with Anna as the new center, not Alice .
In other words, it is difficult for them to obtain (=) in any sense.
I agree with all other points you mentioned.
Finally, based on the vs rule you mentioned, my suggestion is as follows:
Alice = Mgs = Coronzon(Mo/a) = jva >= kingsford >= Aleister > bbc (except anna & alice)
Honestly, since the power balance in Toaru varies like rock-paper-scissors depending on various factors such as personality and preparation, not just the magnitude of their powers, I think it's not a bad idea to break it down into objective matchups rather than listing them in a single hierarchy.
Mgs > All (NT8, 10)
Alice = Mgs (GT10)
Alice > CRC > Kingsford > BBC (In fact, this is the most definitive part that can be represented absolutely. Unlike the others, their rankings can never be overturned no matter what happens.)
Aleister > Mgs (NT12)
JVA > Alice (Mentioned as a means)
Coronzon(Mo/A) > All (NT22, if that magic is completed)
Kingsford > Aleister (It was directly stated that he cannot win even with all his means, unlike how he thoroughly prepared to fight the Magic Gods)
I think it would be good for us to exchange opinions on what method would be best.
Hiryuu
Active member
It seems like you've misunderstood my response. I'm not in disagreement that higher spatial dimensions exist in Toaru. I mean, that's made clear enough by Carissa/Curtana. What I'm in disagreement is the idea that dimensions (in Toaru) = phases/universes. Those are two different things.
Hiryuu
Active member
I reserve comment on this, as the volume is still being translated. You may be right tbh, but I don't think I have the knowledge/capacity to comment on this without fully reading the volume.
They’re used interchangeably in the Curtana scans which cuts through dimensions and into other worlds, reaching the dimension / layer / phase where Aiwass resides
Also Othinus saying she manipulates every Phase and dimension
Mr.OMG
Distinguished
I don't think translating one quote is enough, we need to collect information from other books and sources (can we use the fact that Yukari is weaker or equal to Othinus in strength, even though it is only indirectly mentioned).
That one quote confirms everything else I’ve compiled in this thread
And whose Yukari?
@fiamma Are the rest of the scans I posted from js06’s Baka Tsuki translations about Magic God’s Phases, and Coronzon’s ceremony accurate to the Japanese text?
Hiryuu
Active member
They're mentioned/listed in the same sentences, sure, but they're not necessarily the same thing. It could honestly just be a case of Curtana cutting through a higher/lower dimension to reach other phases.
If dimensions really were phases/universes in the context of Curtana, then the whole explanation of cross-sectional debris provided in the quote I posted wouldn't make any sense. But if dimensions = higher/lower spatial dimensions, then the explanation would perfectly make sense. Heck, you would even come to expect an effect like that, based on how it works.
Mr.OMG
Distinguished
Yukari from Zashiki Warashi Intelligence village
Haven’t read it so no comment on that one.
The only cross Kamachi series Id argue gets scaling is Blood Sign’s White Queen and the rest of the Unexplored Class
Mr.OMG
Distinguished
Honestly, I’m going to make a White Queen respect thread on here in the future where I make my case on this. Let’s save it for later.
But yes, Othinus herself being summoned into that verse as only a Divine-class in that scan will be one of the things I bring up while saying Divine-Class varies tremendously in power since it makes up any possible mythological being from creatures to gods.
But yes, Othinus herself being summoned into that verse as only a Divine-class in that scan will be one of the things I bring up while saying Divine-Class varies tremendously in power since it makes up any possible mythological being from creatures to gods.
fiamma
Notorious
It's a very obvious fact.
Dimensions, phases, and universes are all strictly treated as separate concepts.
In NT12, when Othinus explains the conceptual scope that a Magic God can handle using the hierarchy method, she mentions elements, dimensions, and phases in that order.
It's unclear whether phases are definitely higher than dimensions, but phases and dimensions are clearly different. The same goes for worlds, universes, and the Earth.
Things like the Earth, universes, and worlds
We can confirm that they are also strictly distinguished as separate entities in an increasingly expanding hierarchy.
And Kamachi has made numerous attempts to prevent confusion between these definitions.
The most representative examples are the cases in Nt13 and Nt18.
The definition of a world is very ambiguous.
It's rare for someone to hear the word "world" and think of it broadly as the Earth, the solar system, or the galaxy.
For Kamijou, the world is nothing more than the relationships with his friends and acquaintances.
However, the Magic Gods destroy the very definition of this incomprehensible world at their fingertips.
Here, we can confirm that the world the Magic Gods destroy is the very definition of the world, literally everything in Toaru.
And when we look at Aleister or the BBC, whose power is clearly insufficient, the words "destroying the very definition of the world" are never used for them.
1. Trismegistus, capable of cutting an entire universe
2. Aleister (only one, not including A.A.A or Aiwass), who exerts the energy to create 10 universes beyond the limits of the existing universe
As such, in Toaru, unless used metaphorically, each definition is clearly separated.
Mr.OMG
Distinguished
Guys, please not do drama in this thread