To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - One Othinus To Rule Them All

[Paxton]

So? The spell could have just been laden with some hax like the flames used against CRC, or it could have just been a metaphor like 'as fast as lightning'

And more importantly, what does this have to do with Flaming Sword being equal to Gugnir?

She can move up and down the Sephiroth freely.

Flaming Sword being literally equal to Gungnir makes no sense for the scaling, that's all.
Coronzon's avatar ~ Zombie nerfed MGs ~ Othinus/Dainsleif calamities.

If Flaming Sword is literally equal to Gungnir it'd be pointless to use against peer opponents that already hit just as hard as it by default.

I know. She's of a different pyramid because she naturally exists in Da'at, which is in Atziluth. Both of these statements can be true.

 

[fiamma]

I blocked that person named "chicken" a long time ago. ^^
He's a strange person who seems to think he's Kamachi...
First of all, regarding the mention of infinity, we need to look at NT9, NT10, and GT10 all together.
In NT Volume 9, Othinus directly destroyed religious and mythological constructs that envision the world, such as Heaven and Asgard.
This is directly described in the author's narration in NT Volume 10, stating that everything was destroyed except for the Hidden Phase.
And this is further reinforced in GT Volume 10, emphasizing that the scope is infinite.

GT10
For example, even the infinite world created by Othinus was not destroyed when touched by the right hand.

And regarding the Flaming Sword:
Its destructive power, as the author specifies, is indeed a technique that rivals Gungnir. However, that technique is limited solely to destructive power. It hasn't shown any abilities like manipulating or destroying phases.

 

[Paxton]

"I blocked him because he thinks he's Kamachi"

Proceeds to spout off headcanon about Othinus destroying religious phases, rather than the phases she created. Anyway..


The only reason Flaming;Sword doesn't destroy phases is because it's a focused attack. If Coronzon wanted to nuke the entire universe with her power she could.


Common sense would tell you it doesn't rival Gungnir in terms of destructive power: it surpasses it.

 

[Darth Zion]

Flaming Sword being literally equal to Gungnir makes no sense for the scaling

It makes perfect sense actually. Saying that Othinus is equal to Dainsleif's calamities is what makes no sense when that was never really stated.

What was actually stated is that they can recreate the Othinus' destruction of the universe. But you're ignoring the said destruction was a casual move by Othinus and she also destroyed the walls of all the phases in the process. Besides, Gugnir has multiple other powers.

You're equating the result which is the destruction of the universe, but the cause which is Gugnir and Phase Beings flooding the universe with their presence are never stated to be equal.

Before the battle even began, Marian had likely used the sword to cut through the surrounding space and create a sort of barrier around the area. If she had not, the appearance of the different mythical figures would have created a mysterious phenomenon much like Angel Fall. Or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and everything would have shattered like glass.

Having destroyed the world herself, Othinus knew that was no exaggeration.

That's like saying Soul King is equal to Zeno because they both can destroy the universe, ignoring Soul King only does so because he maintains the cycle of reincarnation and the boundaries between worlds.

In fact, Dainsleif cannot even summon Vishnu at his full power. Because the sword cannot handle that kind of power.

Dáinsleif was said to end the world, but it was still a magic sword made to be wielded by human hands. Even if it could create an embodiment of symbols of evil or sin, it could not perfectly and purely summon one of the top-ranked gods of one of the world's four largest religions. There were said to be ten different avatars, but summoning a chaotic and indistinguishable amalgam for a few seconds had been the limit of that sword.

That being said, I don't really have a problem with Phase Beings being stronger than Othinus. But the quote you're using to justify that does not prove anything of the sort.

 

[Paxton]

It makes perfect sense actually. Saying that Othinus is equal to Dainsleif's calamities is what makes no sense when that was never really stated.

What was actually stated is that they can recreate the Othinus' destruction of the universe. But you're ignoring the said destruction was a casual move by Othinus and she also destroyed the walls of all the phases in the process. Besides, Gugnir has multiple other powers.

You're equating the result which is the destruction of the universe, but the cause which is Gugnir and Phase Beings flooding the universe with their presence are never stated to be equal.

That's like saying Soul King is equal to Zeno because they both can destroy the universe, ignoring Soul King only does so because he maintains the cycle of reincarnation and the boundaries between worlds.

In fact, Dainsleif cannot even summon Vishnu at his full power. Because the sword cannot handle that kind of power.

That being said, I don't really have a problem with Phase Beings being stronger than Othinus. But the quote you're using to justify that does not prove anything of the sort.

I don't see how they're comparable.

Any Dainsleif calamity can destroy the world with their presence (like true Gremlin) and kill Othinus. It's objectively a matter of raw power.
It's what she and the narration both explicitly say.

If they're not equal wtf are they?

 

[Paxton]

Gungnir's other powers aren't really relevant either, so idk why you brought that up.

 

[Darth Zion]

Any Dainsleif calamity can destroy the world with their presence (like true Gremlin) and kill Othinus

Kill Othinus? That was never stated, unless you're talking about a depowered Othinus that's literally dying because of the Fairy Stake.

Othinus not destroying the universe because of her presence? That's probably because she can perfectly control her powers. It's stated to be infinite multiple times yet the power of Phase Beings summoned by Dainsleif is explicitly finite, and anything that reaches actual infinity is infinitely greater than something finite.

You're also ignoring that one of the calamities was Surtr who is supposed to be weaker than Odin in their theology without breaking his destiny. Othinus is Odin.

I don't see any proof that Othinus was weaker than they were.

 

[Mr.OMG]

Dainsleif's calamities are probably only a small part of the powers of Phase Beings.
Given the ToAru cosmology, gods and angels have a higher soul level than humans, and to get to the human world they have to lower their soul rank, which makes them much weaker.

「セフィロトの樹」はカバラの神秘と奥儀を表したもので、「生命の樹」とも呼ばれている。10個の球体「セフィラ」、3本の柱と22本の径「チャネル」で構成されたこの図形の上には、描かれていないもの=神の叡智そのものがあるとされている。セフィロトの樹は、あくまでも人間の世界を描いたものなのだ。ゆえに、セフィロトの外=異界にいる神や天使といった存在は、人間とは全く格の違う存在であり、たとえ聖人といえどもたどり着けない存在である。この考えは学園都市の目指す「SYSTEM（神ならぬ身にて天上の意志に辿り着くもの）」とも類似するものである。

「御便堕し」
本来「魂の位」 が違うために同じ 世界に存在することのない 「御使」 =天使が、人間の位に落ちてきてし 、まったために起きた、人間の「外目見」 と「中身」が入れ替わってしまう現 象。世界中がその影響にあること また、中途半選ながら天使の召映と も言える現象を起こしていることか らも、大規模な術式であると予想さ れる。影響から送れているのは、 「幻 「想殺し (イマジンプレイカー) を持 つ上条や、結界によって不完全ながら 瀬れている土御門たちのみである。

Btw, 6 level is just beginning of beginning

学園都市究極の目的とされるSYSTEM。 「神ならぬ 身にて天上の意思に辿り着くもの」という言葉通りに解釈 し、真理に到達する第一歩として人間を超える=「レベル6」 を生み出すことを目標とする研究者も多い。しかし「超能 力者(レベル5)」をさらに超えた高みは、通常の能力開 発では到達できないところにある。そのため、人体に大き な負担のかかる能力体結晶を用いた木原をはじめ、非人道 的な試みがなされているのだ。その一方で、小萌先生のよ うに能力者の6割を占める「無能力者(レベル0)」にこ そSYSTEM到達へのカギがあると考える者も少なから ず存在する。いずれにせよ、SYSTEM自体、全く未知 のものであり、レベル6の創造すらもそこに至る第一歩にし か過ぎないことだけは確かである。

 

[Paxton]

Kill Othinus? That was never stated, unless you're talking about a depowered Othinus that's literally dying because of the Fairy Stake.

Othinus not destroying the universe because of her presence? That's probably because she can perfectly control her powers. It's stated to be infinite multiple times yet the power of Phase Beings summoned by Dainsleif is explicitly finite, and anything that reaches actual infinity is infinitely greater than something finite.

You're also ignoring that one of the calamities was Surtr who is supposed to be weaker than Odin in their theology without breaking his destiny. Othinus is Odin.

I don't see any proof that Othinus was weaker than they were.

It's not referring to a depowered Othinus.
Othinus directly says that the weapon is appropriate to oppose "a Magic God".
Not a weakened Magic God, a Magic God period.
Why tf would she be referring to her depowered self?
The following sentence only says she could beat Marian and not let her summon said calamities in the first place, not that she's stronger than them.

"If Othinus had been at full strength, she could have crushed Marian in a single blow.
There would not even be a need to kill her. She could simply throw her into a world of happiness."
There's no need to fight the calamities in a normal fight, she can just phase shift gg Marian and win.


They're not stated to be finite last I checked, and even then it doesn't matter.
"The power refined to kill a Magic God was being turned toward a mere boy, yet she could not stop it."


That's all well and good.. but I don't see how this part is relevant. Othinus isn't Odin the phase being.

And I never said she was weaker. I said they were comparable.

 

[Paxton]

When Kamachi says a "Magic God" why do people always assume it's talking about the nerfed versions?

Magic God means Magic God.
As in their natural state of being.

 

[Darth Zion]

Dainsleif's calamities are probably only a small part of the powers of Phase Beings

Yeah, that was evident from the fact that Dainsleif explicitly could not summon Vishnu in its god form.

By Othinus's reckoning, Vishnu Avatara had manifested for less than ten seconds.

Dáinsleif was said to end the world, but it was still a magic sword made to be wielded by human hands. Even if it could create an embodiment of symbols of evil or sin, it could not perfectly and purely summon one of the top-ranked gods of one of the world's four largest religions.

But that was never in contention, what I don't agree with is @Paxton's take that the summoned calamities were stronger than Othinus.

 

[Paxton]

Yeah, that was evident from the fact that Dainsleif explicitly could not summon Vishnu in even it's god form.

But that was never in contention, what I don't agree with is @Paxton 's take that the summoned calamities were weaker than Othinus.

..but I never said they were. And don't you mean "that the summoned calamities were stronger than Othinus"?

 

[Paxton]

I said the calamities are comparable to her. That is all.

 

[Paxton]

 

[Darth Zion]

Othinus directly says that the weapon is appropriate to oppose "a Magic God".

Oppose a Magic Gods, not defeat them- even then it's questionable what kind of Magic Gods she was talking about.

The following sentence only says she could beat Marian and not let her summon said calamities in the first place, not that she's stronger than them

Everything does not need to be spelt out for you- they are weaker because they are finite whereas Othinus is not, it's that simple.

They're not stated to be finite last I checked, and even then it doesn't matter.

Yes, they explicitly are. There's a limit to the power that Dainsleif can summon, look below0

Dáinsleif was said to end the world, but it was still a magic sword made to be wielded by human hands. Even if it could create an embodiment of symbols of evil or sin, it could not perfectly and purely summon one of the top-ranked gods of one of the world's four largest religions.

The novel itself says that there's a level of power that Dainsleif cannot summon, meaning its calamities were below that level and this further means their power was not infinite since it can be weaker than a certain number. This proves that they were finite in power.

When Kamachi says a "Magic God" why do people always assume it's talking about the nerfed versions?

Lol, because he also calls Ollerus and 50/50 Othinus 'Magic Gods'

In fact, Magic Gods is a state of being rather than a power level. The power of a magic god depends solely on what type of Magic Gods they are, not all Magic Gods are the same.

I said the calamities are comparable to her. That is all.

They are not, they are infinitely weaker than her and yes, I meant stronger but I mistyped.

 

[fiamma]

Oppose a Magic Gods, not defeat them- even then it's questionable what kind of Magic Gods she was talking about.

Everything does not need to be spelled out for you- they are weaker because they are finite whereas Othinus is not, it's that simple.

Yes, they explicitly are. There's a limit to power that Dainsleif can summon.

There's a level of power that Dainsleif cannot summon, meaning it's calamities were below that level and this further means their power was not infinite since it can be weaker than a certain number. This proves that they were finite in power.

Lol, because he also calls Ollerus and 50/50 Othinus 'Magic Gods'

In fact, Magic Gods is a state of being rather than a power level. The power of a magic god depends solely on what type of Magic Gods they are, not all Magic Gods are the same.

They are not, they are infinitely weaker than her.

You have pinpointed the main issue well.

Many people are mistaken about this.

"Magic god" has never referred exclusively to the full-powered magic god.

Even now, Othinus, who has shrunk to 15 cm, is still a magic god.

Why is it that only Western readers deny the fact that the magic god mentioned before the CRC battle refers to the 15 cm-tall Othinus?

 

[Paxton]

Oppose a Magic Gods, not defeat them- even then it's questionable what kind of Magic Gods she was talking about.

Everything does not need to be spelled out for you- they are weaker because they are finite whereas Othinus is not, it's that simple.

Yes, they explicitly are. There's a limit to power that Dainsleif can summon.

There's a level of power that Dainsleif cannot summon, meaning it's calamities were below that level and this further means their power was not infinite since it can be weaker than a certain number. This proves that they were finite in power.

Lol, because he also calls Ollerus and 50/50 Othinus 'Magic Gods'

In fact, Magic Gods is a state of being rather than a power level. The power of a magic god depends solely on what type of Magic Gods they are, not all Magic Gods are the same.

They are not, they are infinitely weaker than her.

Even if they just opposed her, they would still scale.

And she's talking about herself at full power. The former Magic God.
There is literally only one other option (she doesn't know true Gremlin exist) and there's no shot you're saying she's comparing them to Ollerus.

""The power refined to kill a Magic God was being turned toward a mere boy, yet she could not stop it.""

How can you read this and possibly come to the conclusion that the calamities are infinitely weaker than her?

Where are you even getting phase beings stronger than Othinus/Magic Gods from if you don't believe the calamities are comparable to her?

 

[Paxton]

You have pinpointed the main issue well.

Many people are mistaken about this.

"Magic god" has never referred exclusively to the full-powered magic god.

Even now, Othinus, who has shrunk to 15 cm, is still a magic god.

Why is it that only Western readers deny the fact that the magic god mentioned before the CRC battle refers to the 15 cm-tall Othinus?

Kamachi hypes up an antagonist by comparing them to someone you can literally stomp on and kill

How retarded do you think he is?

 

[Darth Zion]

there's no shot you're saying she's comparing them to Ollerus.

That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that Magic Gods is not a power-level, it's more of a title- you just cannot ignore that Kamachi was fine terming Ollerus as a 'Magic God's just a few volumes ago.

For example- you do not scale a character to Gilgamesh when Nasu says that he can fight against a servant. You first question which servant?

And since it's relevant to the question of a Magic God's power level- I also don't support people saying that anything that can harm a Magic God is infinite in itself.

There's a hierarchy of power in ToAru- a power lower in that hierarchy such as that of a human simply cannot trump a higher power such as that of an angel or a god. We see this again and again- Terra's spell can switch that hierarchy and we see things with higher precedence are invulnerable to something with a lower one, Pure Elements can straight up negate lower powers and Gabriel caught Curtana that could cleave through infinite dimensions despite being finite at the time.

A finite power with higher precedence that's above everyone else in the hierarchy can probably trump an infinite amount of power that's lower in precedence. Quality trumps quantity. So ToAru scaling is also a question of qualitative superiority rather than just daka. So I also think spells from finite human magicians can threaten Magic Gods because the magic they use is qualitatively superior without breaking the internal scaling chain of the verse.

Meaning, I don't scale Golden Dawn or the Transcendents to infinite power.

 

[Paxton]

That's not what I'm saying, I'm saying that Magic Gods is not a power-level, it's more of a title- you just cannot ignore that Kamachi was fine terming him as a 'Magic God's just a few volumes ago.

For example- you do not scale a character to Gilgamesh when Nasu says that he can fight against a servant. You first question which servant?

And since it's relevant to Magic Gods- I also don't support people saying that anything that can harm a Magic God is infinite in itself.

There's a hierarchy of power in ToAru- a power lower in that hierarchy such as that of a human simply cannot trump a higher power such as that of an angel or a god.

Terra's spell can switch that hierarchy and we see things with higher precedence are invulnerable to something with a lower one. Pure Elements can straight up negate lower powers and Gabriel caught Curtana that could cleave through infinite dimensions despite being finite at the time.

A finite power with higher precedence that's above everyone else in the hierarchy can probably trump an infinite amount of power that's lower in precedence. Quality trumps quantity.

So ToAru scaling is also a question of qualitative superiority rather than just daka. So I also think spells from finite human magicians can threaten Magic Gods because the magic they use is qualitatively superior without breaking the internal scaling chain of the verse.

Meaning, I don't scale Golden Dawn to infinite power.

I agree with all this but I don't understand why you think the calamities can't have both higher precedence and infinite power.


Anyway why's this even matter again? Moving back to the initial argument...
Even if Coronzon's avatar doesn't have infinite power, basic scaling would still have her be capable of destroying the "world" like Othinus did when she threw Gungnir.

Hence why Flaming;Sword being directly equal to Gungnir makes no sense: it's her ultimate spell (albeit she still suffers backlash because of her vessel not being perfect, but I digress), yet is = to something she doesn't need any special technique or spell to replicate.
It should at least be superior to her pure elements, and then we have Gungnir being superior to pure elements.. which is stupid.