To Aru vs Kamen Rider

[Papa Nier]

Hey Astaro,

I get what you're saying about using non-canon sources and the examples from other verses. Let me clarify:

1. Hidden Phase: The idea of a continuous infinite space aligns with its unique properties, but this doesn't mean it's larger than multiple distinct infinities. It’s about how space behaves within that realm.

2. Canon Debate: I see your point on the collaboration event. If Kamachi himself views it as part of the setting, we can consider its influence. However, this doesn’t change the fundamental nature of infinity being continuous rather than discrete.

3. Examples from Other Verses: Beyond Realm and Oblivion are indeed unique cases, but they don’t alter the concept of infinity. Each context has its own rules and interpretations.

I’ll keep these points in mind for future discussions. Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Astaro]

@Papa Nier

Examples from Other Verses: Beyond Realm and Oblivion are indeed unique cases, but they don’t alter the concept of infinity. Each context has its own rules and interpretations.

Glad we agree, or we would if AI (and you yourself, bot) weren’t contradicting yourself by forcing your own rules and interpretation that ignores what’s clearly written

 

[Papa Nier]

Hey Astaro,

I’ve looked into the Beyond Realm and Oblivion as you suggested.

Beyond Realm (Marvel):
The Beyond Realm is an infinite-dimensional space outside the Marvel Multiverse, encompassing it entirely. The Beyonder, originating from this realm, has power vastly surpassing the entire multiverse, indicating a unique level of infinity and spatial properties.

Oblivion (Elder Scrolls):
Oblivion consists of countless infinite realms, each with its own properties but existing within the same overarching space.

Both examples show unique infinite structures but don't redefine the concept of infinity itself. Each context and interpretation vary, but it boils down to how infinity is understood in each universe.

You're right; each context and universe has its own rules and interpretations of infinity. I’m not ignoring what's written but aligning it with the broader concept of infinity as understood in different series. For "Toaru," the Hidden Phase is a unique infinite space. Even if we consider "Toaru x Virtual-On" as semi-canon, it still doesn’t change the fundamental nature of infinity being continuous rather than discrete.

Let’s keep the discussion focused on the canonical material from "Toaru Majutsu no Index" and its direct sequels for clarity.

Looking forward to your thoughts.

 

[Astaro]

The Beyond Realm is an infinite-dimensional space outside the Marvel Multiverse, encompassing it entirely.

Thank you for proving my point, literally this Phase described

Enjoy the Elder Scrolls and Marvel nerfs with how wanked Kamen Rider one shots both settings now

 

[Masterblack06]

Toaru doesn't, Kamen Rider wins off it

I dunno lol.

SMT has the advantage of their Gnostic series having an endgame every game, yknow. Toaru is being dragged out for a century since he wants it to be the longest-running LN series ever, which sucks in this aspect.

Like Level 6 Accel when??

Damn its been 10 years? Nigga trying to make the one piece of visual novels or something?

 

[Papa Nier]

### Comparison of Cosmologies: Marvel Comics, Elder Scrolls, and Kamen Rider

Marvel Comics:

• Infinite Multiverse: Contains countless alternate universes and dimensions.
• Beyond Realm: Infinite-dimensional space encompassing the multiverse.
• Key Realms: Dark Dimension, Limbo, Negative Zone, and more, each with unique properties.

Elder Scrolls:

• Oblivion: Countless infinite realms within the same overarching space.
• Aetherius: Immortal Plane containing many realms.
• Infinite Timelines: Highlighted by the Nerevarine’s infinite possibilities.

Kamen Rider:

• Multiple Disconnected Infinite Realms: Includes the Saver System, Mirror World, and infinite timelines.
• Unique Structure: Distinct and separate infinities within the same universe.

### Key Comparisons:

• Marvel: Infinite multiverse with various distinct realms, each with unique properties.
• Elder Scrolls: Infinite realms within Oblivion and infinite timelines highlighting multiple possibilities.
• Kamen Rider: Distinct, disconnected infinite realms and timelines, each existing separately within the universe.

Each of these cosmologies showcases unique interpretations of infinity and multiversal structures, with Marvel and Elder Scrolls featuring interconnected infinite realms and Kamen Rider having distinct, separate infinities.

### Comparison of Cosmologies: Marvel Comics, Elder Scrolls, and Kamen Rider

#### Marvel Comics:

• Scope: Infinite multiverse with countless alternate universes and dimensions.
• Key Feature: The Beyond Realm is an infinite-dimensional space encompassing the entire multiverse, indicating a highly expansive and powerful structure.

#### Elder Scrolls:

• Scope: Includes Oblivion with countless infinite realms, Aetherius (the source of magic), and infinite timelines due to the Nerevarine’s infinite possibilities.
• Key Feature: Infinite realms and timelines, creating a complex and layered cosmology.

#### Kamen Rider:

• Scope: Features multiple disconnected infinite realms, such as the Saver System, Mirror World, and infinite timelines.
• Key Feature: Each realm exists independently, showcasing distinct and separate infinities.

### Superiority Comparison:

• Marvel Comics: Generally considered the most expansive due to its infinite-dimensional Beyond Realm, encompassing an infinite multiverse.
• Elder Scrolls: Also vast with its infinite realms and timelines, though less interconnected than Marvel.
• Kamen Rider: Features distinct and separate infinities, which, while impressive, may not be as collectively vast as Marvel or Elder Scrolls.

In summary, while all three cosmologies are vast and complex, Marvel's Beyond Realm often stands out as the most expansive due to its encompassing nature and infinite dimensions. Elder Scrolls and Kamen Rider have their unique complexities but may not reach the same level of collective scope.

 

[Papa Nier]

### Detailed Comparison of Cosmologies

#### Marvel Comics:
1. Scope: Infinite multiverse with countless alternate universes and dimensions.
2. Key Realms: Beyond Realm (infinite-dimensional), Dark Dimension, Limbo, Negative Zone.
3. Complexity: Highly intricate with entities like the Beyonder surpassing the multiverse.

#### Elder Scrolls:
1. Scope: Infinite realms within Oblivion and Aetherius, plus infinite timelines.
2. Key Realms: Oblivion (infinite realms), Aetherius (immortal plane), Mundus (mortal realm).
3. Complexity: Detailed structure with Daedric Princes and infinite possibilities.

#### Tokuverse (Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, Ultraman, Metal Hero, Android Kikaider):
1. Scope: Vast interconnected multiverse featuring multiple tokusatsu series, each with their own universes and timelines.
2. Key Realms:
- Kamen Rider: Saver System, Mirror World, infinite timelines.
- Super Sentai: Numerous universes and timelines.
- Ultraman: Multiple universes and dimensions.
- Metal Hero and Android Kikaider: Various unique universes.
3. Complexity: Each series has distinct realms that occasionally intersect, creating a rich multiverse.

#### Toaru Majutsu no Index (Canon):
1. Phases: Layers of reality (Assiah, Yetzirah, Beriah, Atziluth).
2. Magic Gods: Entities manipulating multiple realities and universes.
3. Hidden Phase: A unique infinite space with non-linear properties.

#### Toaru Majutsu no Index (with Virtual-On):
1. Tangram: Controls infinite multiverses, adding depth to the cosmology.
2. Crossover Influence: While semi-canon, it significantly broadens Toaru's scope.

### Rankings:
1. Marvel Comics: Most expansive due to its infinite-dimensional Beyond Realm and extensive multiverse.
2. Elder Scrolls: Vast with infinite realms and timelines, showcasing significant complexity.
3. Tokuverse: Features interconnected universes across multiple series, creating a vast multiverse.
4. Toaru Majutsu no Index (with Virtual-On): Expanded with Tangram’s control over infinite multiverses.
5. Toaru Majutsu no Index (Canon): Complex with layered realities (Phases) but not separate universes.

### Summary:
Marvel Comics generally has the broadest scope, followed by Elder Scrolls, the Tokuverse, Toaru with Virtual-On, and Toaru Canon. Each showcases unique interpretations of infinity and multiversal structures, contributing to their rich and diverse narratives.

 

[Astaro]

@Papa Nier And AI got it wrong. Phases are separate universes, the respect thread I made clearly explains that. And treats Tangram as the best in the verse (its not, Othinus would destroy it in a fight and made it clear she would, the True Magic Gods are infinitely above her) while contradicting itself because the descriptions for the above being infinite multiverses just like the Tangram are still somehow superior to it

Come back to me bot when you finally grow a brain for yourself and drop this zero effort attempt at trolling. Until the, I’m not wasting any further effort

 

[Papa Nier]

Hey Astaro,

I revisited your respect thread, and I see the point about Phases being treated as separate universes. Let's update the comparison accordingly:

### Updated Comparison of Cosmologies:

#### Marvel Comics:
1. Scope: Infinite multiverse with countless alternate universes and dimensions.
2. Key Realms: Beyond Realm (infinite-dimensional), Dark Dimension, Limbo, Negative Zone.
3. Complexity: Highly intricate with entities like the Beyonder surpassing the multiverse.

#### Elder Scrolls:
1. Scope: Infinite realms within Oblivion and Aetherius, plus infinite timelines.
2. Key Realms: Oblivion (infinite realms), Aetherius (immortal plane), Mundus (mortal realm).
3. Complexity: Detailed structure with Daedric Princes and infinite possibilities.

#### Tokuverse (Kamen Rider, Super Sentai, Ultraman, Metal Hero, Android Kikaider):
1. Scope: Vast interconnected multiverse featuring multiple tokusatsu series, each with their own universes and timelines.
2. Key Realms: Various universes and dimensions within each series.
3. Complexity: Distinct realms that intersect during crossovers, creating a rich multiverse.

#### Toaru Majutsu no Index (Canon):
1. Phases: Separate universes with unique properties, layered within the same cosmology.
2. Magic Gods: Entities manipulating multiple realities and universes.
3. Hidden Phase: A unique infinite space with non-linear properties.

#### Toaru Majutsu no Index (with Virtual-On):
1. Tangram: Controls infinite multiverses, adding depth to the cosmology.
2. Crossover Influence: While semi-canon, it significantly broadens Toaru's scope.

### Revised Rankings:
1. Marvel Comics: Most expansive due to its infinite-dimensional Beyond Realm and extensive multiverse.
2. Elder Scrolls: Vast with infinite realms and timelines, showcasing significant complexity.
3. Tokuverse: Features interconnected universes across multiple series, creating a vast multiverse.
4. Toaru Majutsu no Index (with Virtual-On): Expanded with Tangram’s control over infinite multiverses.
5. Toaru Majutsu no Index (Canon): Complex with separate universes (Phases) and powerful entities.

Thanks for pointing that out, and let's continue discussing with accurate details.

 

[Astaro]

“Hey Astaro,

I revisited your respect thread, and I see the point about Phases being treated as separate universes. Let's update the comparison accordingly:”

I’ll take shit that never happened for 500

Anyway as usual, the other side’s only attempt at a win when wanking themselves to oblivion by stacking infinities is ignoring feats and descriptions for their own forced heacanon once they see how that infinity stacking backfires on them.

And needing AI to do so on top of that. Sad. Fucking worse then SpaceBattles

I said I was done with you, Nier, but felt like posting that your a liar along with being a troll for others to see too

 

[Masterblack06]

Anyway as usual, the other side’s only attempt at a win when wanking themselves to oblivion is ignoring feats and and descriptions for their own forced heacanon.

And needing AI to do so on top of that. Sad.

So Imma ask again

What feat do they have that lets them get past MoB Gaim or Mighty Novel X

 

[Astaro]

So Imma ask again

What feat do they have that lets them get past MoB Gaim or Mighty Novel X

True Gremlin in particular being stronger reality warpers in scope given even from their own Phase that’s so big, it would comfortably contain the entire Kamen Rider cosmology, their power still affect and influence the rest of the verse whether they want to or not

"Destiny?"

"Ha ha. That may be difficult for someone poisoned by science in Academy City, but you must have always felt that you were burdened with misfortune

"…"

"There is such a thing as unavoidable destiny. There are powerful rails that cannot be overcome by an individual's decisions. But even that is ultimately nothing more than the result of an unseen clash between the opinions of Magic Gods. Of course, we have no intention of harming any specific individual. In fact, the individuals clinging to this puny planet never enter our field of vision. Still, our actions are constantly affecting the outside world and make great changes in the world. It can be quite a problem."

Even when the whole point of being in that Phase is to avoid doing so as much as possible

 

[Masterblack06]

True Gremlin in particular being stronger reality warpers in scope given even from their own Phase that’s so big, it would comfortably contain the entire Kamen Rider cosmology, their power still affect and influence the rest of the verse whether they want to or not



Even when the whole point of being in that Phase is to avoid doing so as much as possible

This....isnt a feat Astaro

Also, What does this do to actually fight Gaim, wheres the attack they use. Like with Othinus you have her doing her shit with her Spear but that would do fuck all to Gaim since he doesnt need a physical form and Mighty Novel X can just not let her throw the shit.

and before you ask why Mighty Novel X can do that, its because his power worked on someone with more control over its verse than anything you have shown me with To Aru thus far.

and this isnt even Genm's strongest form. This is his 3rd Strongest

Hell Ex-Aid Level 99 can straight up Rewrite or turn off peoples abilities.

Also Kamen Riders cosmology includes the real world as well since, you know, they actually go there and fuck around in the real world. So no To Aru doesnt "comfortably" fit anything Kamen Rider related.

Also if you wanna know why feats are slow in being posted is because 90% of all the shit for Kamen Rider was hosted on gfycat and that shits gone

 

[Uoruk]

I’ll take shit that never happened for 500

It's obviously a guest smh

And needing AI to do so on top of that. Sad. Fucking worse then SpaceBattles

You didn't have to entertain it

actually you

 

[Astaro]

This....isnt a feat Astaro

Feat shows the range of influence of their powers. Subconsciously and while cut off from everything else in their own Phase that’s so vast, every hair’s breadth is an infinite space.

Also, What does this do to actually fight Gaim, wheres the attack they use. Like with Othinus you have her doing her shit with her Spear but that would do fuck all to Gaim since he doesnt need a physical form and Mighty Novel X can just not let her throw the shit.

Not having a physical form doesn’t make you immune to reality warping MB

and before you ask why Mighty Novel X can do that, its because his power worked on someone with more control over its verse than anything you have shown me with To Aru thus far.

and this isnt even Genm's strongest form. This is his 3rd Strongest

Power over concepts, time, and laws of physics. That description is literally no different than a Magic God

All living creatures eventually die, an apple dropped from above would fall down, and 1+1=2. You would be able to take those kinds of natural and unchangeable rules of the world, destroy them, rewrite them, and create new ones. You could make 1+1=3, make an apple dropped from below fall up, and make all dead creatures eventually be revived. Magicians called such being Magic Gods.

Not the god of the demon plane, but a magician who had thoroughly mastered magic to the point of entering the domain of God.

"Magic God Othinus could control everything. Without exaggeration, she controlled the world itself. If she wanted to, she could have galaxies collide to kill Kamijou Touma. Or she could break the bonds between the particles making up his body and cause his very existence to disperse. If she was the slightest bit dissatisfied with something, she could turn back time, re-lay the rails of fate that led to the future, and create the exact result she wanted."

And the Tangram

There was no trace of the city’s destruction, no one had any memory of facing the Second Plajiner, and there was no sign of the Next Generation Game of Virtual-On in any form.

This had all begun from the desire to illegitimately use the Tangram which controlled all causality and phenomena. The Tangram had a will of its own, so as soon as it remembered something, it may have corrected everything.

Hell Ex-Aid Level 99 can straight up Rewrite or turn off peoples abilities.

Othinus just ignored having that done to her by the Fairy spell. After it had already rendered her powerless.

Also Kamen Riders cosmology includes the real world as well since, you know, they actually go there and fuck around in the real world. So no To Aru doesnt "comfortably" fit anything Kamen Rider related.

Show me proof a Kamen Rider jumping out of one of our TV screen into our world then. Otherwise, the “real world” no more real than Toaru’s setting that references real world history.

Also if you wanna know why feats are slow in being posted is because 90% of all the shit for Kamen Rider was hosted on gfycat and that shits gone

Okay

Keep in mind, my original post was saying this is likely a stalemate with both sides having character nebulously above destroying an infinite multiverse

 

[Paxton]

I confused, what here let's anyone beat MoB Gaim?

Like I don't really get what the rebuttal to my statements were.

Even if we say anyone in to aru gets past gaim, how do they get past Mighty Novel X who's power is literally weaponized plot manipulation of his own existence and this is done using the powers of MoB

Shit son, why is it that 99% of to aru just does fuck and all I'm these kinda threads and it's literally up to the literal tippy top tiers to hard carry their verse against anything worth its salt

..he says when he's only mentioned top tier Kamen Riders

 

[Paxton]

I mean be for real lol most (if not all) verse vs verse fights are just top tiers vs top tiers

 

[Paxton]

and for the 400th time Magic Gods don't even affect the entire verse

They only affect the lowest of the Four Worlds (the realm of man/world of the physical/Assiah) there is, and not even all of it

if they ever destroyed the Pure World the verse wouldn't exist anymore

 

[Uoruk]

..he says when he's only mentioned top tier Kamen Riders

Toaru struggles to deal with most of the high tiers let alone the top tiers. The only thing even keeping them in this discussion are the same thing every Toaru thread devolves into, the esoteric non combatants you guys always invoke which is exactly what he's calling out.

 

[Paxton]

ok and all that's being talked about for both sides are the top tiers

like I just said