Churronzon
Illustrious
Wasting no time with this one
VS 
Chimera is at her weakest, location is Judecca
VS
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[Toaru] Chimera vs Lucifer
- Thread starter Churronzon
- Start date
Churronzon
Illustrious
No he's just made to look pretty
Churronzon
Illustrious
Same as this one 
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Darth Zion
Preeminent
Wasn't Lucifer solo'd by Anna offscreen within minutes during GT11? This is the same Anna who lost to CRC, the man could not instantly defeat Dragon King Touma so this Lucifer being above anything in Imagine Breaker becomes weird to me. The quote seems to be Touma's ramblings influenced by being in the presence of a literal cognito hazard to me rather than an actual indication of power.
Besides, Lucifer from GT11 does not scale to anyone since he was literally a fake version of the actual Satan created by Johann's Phase Manipulation and it would have become a threat by teaming up with his creator rather than anything else. @Paxton, I don't know why you would take any of these quotes seriously when the first one you posted is simply a character who was defeated by Aiwass bragging about not doing anything against the Magic Gods.
We know for sure that the Rosicrucian Cabal never even existed in the first place and was just a prank made up by Johann which went out of hand to distort the world. The only lines from these quotes I would take seriously are Othinus admitting that she is a superior magician, which does not translate to power since Golden Dawn magicians also use magic superior to the outdated styles of Magic Gods and can perform magic on that scale with prep- does not stop them from being one-shot by the infinite presence of an MG.
Being a superior magician can just mean having higher Precedence, Aeon superiority, or simply using a more unified magical system.
Besides, Lucifer from GT11 does not scale to anyone since he was literally a fake version of the actual Satan created by Johann's Phase Manipulation and it would have become a threat by teaming up with his creator rather than anything else. @Paxton, I don't know why you would take any of these quotes seriously when the first one you posted is simply a character who was defeated by Aiwass bragging about not doing anything against the Magic Gods.
We know for sure that the Rosicrucian Cabal never even existed in the first place and was just a prank made up by Johann which went out of hand to distort the world. The only lines from these quotes I would take seriously are Othinus admitting that she is a superior magician, which does not translate to power since Golden Dawn magicians also use magic superior to the outdated styles of Magic Gods and can perform magic on that scale with prep- does not stop them from being one-shot by the infinite presence of an MG.
Being a superior magician can just mean having higher Precedence, Aeon superiority, or simply using a more unified magical system.
Churronzon
Illustrious
Does that mean Lucifer has 0 supernatural abilities?
Darth Zion
Preeminent
He's created by magic so clearly supernatural, but if you're talking about him mentally influencing Touma then he can be mind-manipulated if his Right Hand is not touching his head since his negation does not encompass his entire body. Misaki once mind-controlled him despite Imagine Breaker, and if I had to draw a parallel then it would be more akin to Kamisato's mind being influenced by Chimera to show how her powers work.
It just makes no sense for Imagine Breaker to be weaker than an artificial Satan created by a human's Phase Manipulation when he could perfectly negate every magic Johann otherwise had.
It's a person (Madame Horos) with a fraction of the actual Anna Sprengel's power saying she spared the Magic Gods present in late NT22.
Which is consistent with later quotes we have about her (Anna Sprengel) power.
“The acquisition of a new self. The goal of joining a magic cabal is to overcome the judgment of death and obtain the light of god. But if you only wish to surpass your physical form and elevate your soul along the Sephiroth, couldn’t you have simply tamed Coronzon who guards the borderline known as the Abyss?”
- Aiwass towards Anna Sprengel in NT22R (while she isn't at her full power, at that)
"wielded power greater than a god"
"since she's the strongest"
Anyone superior to NT Aleister could destroy the Hidden World (which can handle their presence) just like he did, or just amplify their own stats to infinity with their superior skill (Aleister with just Spiritual Tripping/Blasting Rod alone could feasibly acquire infinite power already given the mechanics of the spells, and anyone superior could obviously do the same but better).
Regardless, this isn't really relevant since Lucifer doesn't really do anything or have any notable statements besides that first one I brought up.
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Churronzon
Illustrious
Solo'd is a bad word. Yeah it was stalled, but we don't know Lucifer's temperament in how seriously it fights, only his prerogative in punishing sinners, which Anna Kingsford is the furthest away from being imo.
And yet Touma was confident in dealing with CRC, but believed the Dragon King's jaws would not erase Lucifer. Touma could be thinking long-term as in he might be able to stall Lucifer but not be able to think of something permanent.
I'd need to reread the volume anyways.
Darth Zion
Preeminent
Sure, they are superior magicians and can probably influence the world to that extent if they prepare for it. I've already mentioned how Golden Dawn magicians can probably use magic on the scale of Magic Gods.
But this is a VS and the question of how instantly they can output that level of power and whether the rest of their stats reach that level is a deciding factor in fights. Just look at Golden Dawn magicians and Transcendants, both are stated to have 'superior magic' and I can get behind that idea with Aeons and Precedence being mentioned right from the days of the OT. But the fact remains that they are humans who can only perform magic on that level by the end of the day- their speed and their durability do not scale to their AP without magic.
Golden Dawn magicians clearly do not have infinite durability and Transcendents clearly do not have infinite speed, it is only the Magic Gods whose presence whose stats are that well spread- they have hacked all their stats to infinite and that just makes them better combatants in every regard, and any match against the Magic Gods is pointless unless you somehow equalize that.
I've mentioned this before but a normal human with a nuke would be inferior to a supersonic human who can punch as hard as a bullet. The former can certainly destroy cities and do far more damage, but the latter would just punch their head to mush if both were placed across each other and told to fight.
In terms of these 'superior magicians' vs magic gods, I can see them defeating magic gods if you give them time to set up some magic beforehand. But they would just get blown up by an MG moving a limb in a random encounter (except for Alice who is perhaps the only one with passive powers)
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..are they?
I know the Transcendents drawing upon higher powers with Risk 4 maybe have that kind of statement, but do the Golden Dawn?
They're narratively equal, not superior.
Your analogy with a person with a nuke doesn't really make sense: these magicians can buff their own stats to such an insane degree.
And then there's Anna Sprengel who just straight up wields power greater than a god by default. And she's not even at her full power yet.
Darth Zion
Preeminent
Superior Magician=/= Superior Fighter
I don't see how you consider Madam Horus to be superior to any Magic Gods based on a single statement when she was defeated by Aiwass, the same one who lost to Coronzon in a human body- the same version of Coronzon could not defeat even a single infinitely nerfed magic god, and was wounded in her fight against one.
This comes back to my point about magical superiority not being equal to fighting powers. Sure, Coronzon could launch Flaming Swords which is probably beyond Magic Gods by precedence alone and set up barriers which need infinite power to break through but what good is that when she cannot release that level of magic at infinite speed and does not have infinite durability?
Well, I said they have technically superior magic because Magic Gods are based on the Aeon of Isis from what we have seen so far. Transcendants and Golden Mages use modern magic which is technically superior. This further drives my point about superior magic not equalising to a more powerful fighter.
I don't see how you consider Madam Horus to be superior to any Magic Gods based on a single statement when she was defeated by Aiwass, the same one who lost to Coronzon in a human body- the same version of Coronzon could not defeat even a single infinitely nerfed magic god, and was wounded in her fight against one.
This comes back to my point about magical superiority not being equal to fighting powers. Sure, Coronzon could launch Flaming Swords which is probably beyond Magic Gods by precedence alone and set up barriers which need infinite power to break through but what good is that when she cannot release that level of magic at infinite speed and does not have infinite durability?
Churronzon
Illustrious
Btw I was asking if Lucifer had any abilities to add it to johanns vsbw profile
Aiwass was sandbagging and the fight with Niang-Niang (which was a stalemate) was off-screen, so..
If Niang-Niang can't counter pure elements any explanation of Coronzon losing could simply be that she let herself lose.
How else could the fight make sense? It's not like Coronzon in her human body was getting blitzed.
?
Aleister was moving just fine in the Hidden World and character's on Coronzon's level (Touma when motivated
and Accelerator) can react to Flaming;Sword.Both of those require speed that can hardly even be called speed at that point.
planet level at most with 0 hax to speak of, don't worry