Touma and his Interactions with other Attacks

[Cryso Agori]

Uh for the Shiki vs Touma stuff.

Touma has a relativistic feat in the first volume and quite of few of them later, so he absolutely should be fast enough to keep up with Shiki's knife slashes.

Main problem is that even with IB negating negating lines of death on Touma's right hand, ib is a normal right hand in durability, and putting your hand in front of a knife is a good way to get your fingers chopped off, so yeah, Shiki can just chop Touma's fingers and hand apart with normal knife skills alone.

 

[Mr.OMG]

Can Touma negate that which doesn't actually exist? Like Soft & Wet's Go Beyond Bubbles which are infinitely thin spinning lines.

That seems like it could be a workaround for me. If IB has a system by which it uses to detect what's natural and what isn't, then something that's nonexistent and therefore has no substance to it to negate seems like it could bypass it.

IB was able to influence Aleister Crowley's non-existent magic. Aleister creates non-existent weapons, but which are real to the target's mind. For example, he can create a big bang bomb that destroys the victim's mind (and at the same time the body, since Aleister Crowley uses the concept of a voodoo doll, firmly linking the mind and body). IB can interact with nonexistent things.

"I wanted to take a necessary item from you."

"You already have everything you need."

Still seated, Allan Bennett gestured as if he were gently grabbing something.

There had been nothing there before.

But something odd flashed in the master's hand. They looked like sparks from a lighter's flint. But they scattered through the air as small numbers.

28, 4, 29.

And then the master's hand held a twisted staff made of silver.

"I am altering the scene here," whispered the Black Cat Witch. "Normally this would be invisible to all but Crowley who it is directed towards, but I will place it here as an objective image. After all, nothing is as empty as an explanation you cannot understand."

"…But that's all you've been giving me."

But time passed as Kamijou made his exasperated comment.

"You should have already learned it all perfectly. Although it may only look like one of the abominable powers which will take your daughter's life and tear your family apart."

Allan opened his hand and the staff disappeared once more.

But this was not the Blasting Rod that Allan Bennett was known for.

It was actually a usage of the technique known as Spiritual Tripping.

Aleister Crowley's eyes did not waver.

With the arrow still in hand, he formed a handgun gesture with his other hand and several numbers danced from that hand like sparks: 32, 30, 10. Then the illusion gun fired an impact that sent Westcott's body flying backwards.

"I have altered the scene again," softly added Mina. "I am sure you understand after seeing it before, but that is a weapon that can only be seen by the one it targets. I am merely placing an objective view of it here."

As nonexistent gun smoke floated around him, Aleister whispered words that sounded like a curse.

"An arrow holds the meaning of a spiritualized attack. It should have thrown off the yoke of the physical once it was launched… but as it negates all supernatural powers, it ironically seeks the physical instead, Westcott."

The 5 branches of the arrow's tip seemed to have torn into the old man's flesh and blood. Specifically, the container of his soul, the red mass at the center of his chest. The old man had been torn to pieces within the wound when that was forcibly ripped out, but Crowley ignored him and turned around with the bloody arrow still in hand.

It used a technique of conveying one's meditation to someone else.

It was the magic known as Spiritual Tripping. The name did not sound very sharp, but it linked the user's body to the target's just like with a voodoo doll and it synced up their motions. But this usage allowed the user into the target's mind. The gesture would send the power of the indicated weapon into the target's mind.

The silver-haired man altered his stance. As soon as he gestured as if he held something in both hands, numbers scattered from them like sparks from a lighter's flint: 1, 27, 5. Then a double-edged sword appeared in his hands.

The gigantic sword was nearly as tall as he was and looked like something from a children's book.

It was the steel sword of a great king.

There was no point in discussing the laws of physics here. If someone had been able to bring a radar device here, the reflected waves would not have detected anything there.

This deadly weapon sliced directly into someone's perception.

It used a technique of conveying one's meditation to someone else.

It was the magic known as Spiritual Tripping. The name did not sound very sharp, but it linked the user's body to the target's just like with a voodoo doll and it synced up their motions. But this usage allowed the user into the target's mind. The gesture would send the power of the indicated weapon into the target's mind.

"Oh, Mathers, my foolish spouse," said the Black Cat Witch. "If you had not been so obsessed with the details and if you had kept your eyes on your true enemy even if it let that arrow shatter your breastbone, you would have had a way out of this."

Mathers was slow to react as the other man stepped forward.

The man swung the giant sword diagonally down with both hands and the nonexistent blade dug deep, deep down into Mathers' torso through his shoulder.

"A clay…more…?"

"This is a tribute, so rejoice, self-styled highlander. I finished you off with the sword you so loved."

It did not matter here whether or not it physically existed. Either way, it tore through Mathers' body and dark red liquid erupted from within.

Only one man remained standing.

Aleister Crowley made a quiet announcement to the end of his ideal.

"Now you will either die or have all possibility of success stripped from you as you live out the rest of your days in despair. It is time you withered away, sinner."

"Crow…ley."

"You see, Mathers, this is not a mere outburst of anger at being unable to stop the spontaneous death of a life that has yet to be born."

And a few numbers scattered from his hand like sparks.

32, 30, 10.

"!?"

Several illusionary gunshots rang out in a row. It did not matter that the gun was flintlock. If these had been actual lead bullets, there would have been nothing Kamijou could do. But this was magic. That meant his surefire right hand would work against it. Having too perfect an image of something could be both a good thing and a bad thing.

He deflected the bullets and moved right up to Aleister.

At that length, the blade could slice across this entire space. He could not pull it out. To avoid being held in place by the imaginary blade skewering him, Kamijou grabbed it with his right hand. It shattered and vanished into the ether and he regained his freedom in exchange for losing the plug keeping the wound closed.

 

[Cryso Agori]

IB was able to influence Aleister Crowley's non-existent magic. Aleister creates non-existent weapons, but which are real to the target's mind. For example, he can create a big bang bomb that destroys the victim's mind (and at the same time the body, since Aleister Crowley uses the concept of a voodoo doll, firmly linking the mind and body). IB can interact with nonexistent things.

But in this case, spiritual tripping is explicitly a technique to make an illusion real. So even if the weapon itself doesn't exist, the effect for those who are affected by the illusion is explicitly real. All IB needs to do is negate the effect which is real, not the actual illusion, which is fake.

 

[Astaro]

From your quote it sounds like he's negating the distortion of space that is the mechanism behind the teleportation. So that could work against spatial erasure abilities in Jojo like Vanilla Ice's Cream or Okuyasu's The Hand. But the Go Beyond Bubbles don't really manipulate space in any way, they just bypass everything (including the natural Law of Calamity) by not existing.

Nah, the distortion was a side effect of Awaki overtaxing herself by using the most amount of mass she could teleport at once. The teleport itself was negated too

Also, things like fate aren’t things that physically exist yet IB negate them since Volume 1. Go Beyond shouldn’t be something Touma can’t negate

 

[xenos5]

Nah, the distortion was a side effect of Awaki overtaxing herself by using the most amount of mass she could teleport at once. The teleport itself was negated too

Also, things like fate aren’t things that physically exist yet IB negate them since Volume 1. Go Beyond shouldn’t be something Touma can’t negate

Calamity is essentially the negative aspect of Fate in Jojo and Go Beyond’s nonexistence lets it bypass Wonder of U’s Calamity Manipulation.

Go Beyond Bubbles are nonexistent in the truest sense. They don’t just lack substance, they don’t just pass through things like intangibility, they are infinitely thin lines spinning in place.

If Imagine Breaker is like a Natural Law in and of itself in ToAru that still shouldn’t prevent Go Beyond from bypassing it since it bypassed Calamity.

 

[Astaro]

Calamity is essentially the negative aspect of Fate in Jojo and Go Beyond’s nonexistence lets it bypass Wonder of U’s Calamity Manipulation.

Go Beyond Bubbles are nonexistent in the truest sense. They don’t just lack substance, they don’t just pass through things like intangibility, they are infinitely thin lines spinning in place.

If Imagine Breaker is like a Natural Law in and of itself in ToAru that still shouldn’t prevent Go Beyond from bypassing it since it bypassed Calamity.

And still supernatural. Also to be specifiic, their not existent, just infinitely close to zero mass to them

Go Beyond defies Calamities, IB ignores the laws of cause and effect, neither has precedence over the over talking about this and if anything, I’d argue Imagine Breaker being more impressive than this anyway

So it comes down to Go Beyond still being a supernatural force in the end against IB

 

[xenos5]

And still supernatural. Also to be specifiic, their not existent, just infinitely close to zero mass to them

Go Beyond defies Calamities, IB ignores the laws of cause and effect, neither has precedence over the over talking about this and if anything, I’d argue Imagine Breaker being more impressive than this anyway

So it comes down to Go Beyond still being a supernatural force in the end against IB

We may have to agree to disagree. Since to me I would think Imagine Breaker would need a feat of negating something that bypassed a Natural Law due to nonexistence to say it can negate Go Beyond.

 

[Astaro]

We may have to agree to disagree. Since to me I would think Imagine Breaker would need a feat of negating something that bypassed a Natural Law due to nonexistence to say it can negate Go Beyond.

Demanding something that specific is ridiculous, especially with the kind of logic JoJo runs on

It doesn’t transcend anything to argue it’s got precedence over IB and it’s a supernatural attack with force behind it way weaker than even Misaka’s Railgun

 

[xenos5]

Demanding something that specific is ridiculous, especially with the kind of logic JoJo runs on

It doesn’t transcend anything to argue it’s got precedence over IB and it’s a supernatural attack with force behind it way weaker than even Misaka’s Railgun

It's testing IB's limits in a very different way than other attacks. In that how would IB even detect it? Go Beyond Bubbles are invisible even to Stand Users.

And the force is irrelevant since it's hax. It will deal the same damage to anyone who can't resist it all the same.

 

[Astaro]

It's testing IB's limits in a very different way than other attacks. In that how would IB even detect it? Go Beyond Bubbles are invisible even to Stand Users.

You mean Touma will detect, and in which case, Touma’s been able to react to literal telefrags

…The eighth shot overcame the restrictions of the third dimension.

Kamijou felt a static electricity-like spark on his spine and immediately swung his head to the side as hard as he could. An instant later, space suddenly split open and an arrow assaulted the world.

And the force is irrelevant since it's hax. It will deal the same damage to anyone who can't resist it all the same.

Imagine Breaker has worked on intangible / durability ignoring attacks on several occasions

 

[xenos5]

You mean Touma will detect, and in which case, Touma’s been able to react to literal telefrags



Imagine Breaker has worked on intangible / durability ignoring attacks on several occasions

Out of curiosity are there abilities that completely erase one's presence in ToAru? To the point even characters with extreme sensory abilities can't detect them at all? Like NNT Ban's Zero Sign, for example.

Cause detecting someone while they're using that would be more along the lines of what i'm thinking of. There are levels of undetectability like there are levels to every hax. And with a power system like Stands where they are all undetectable to normal humans to begin with, I find Go Beyond Bubbles being undetectable even to Stand Users becomes much more impressive as a result.

Reacting to a telefrag is great but teleportation uses a form of energy. IIRC from what I recall about ToAru don't all Espers utilize AIM Diffusion Fields? So I would imagine if you can detect the Field the Esper utilizes you can figure out where they are aiming their ability.

 

[Astaro]

Out of curiosity are there abilities that completely erase one's presence in ToAru? To the point even characters with extreme sensory abilities can't detect them at all? Like NNT Ban's Zero Sign, for example.

Too lazy to think of one right now

Cause detecting someone while they're using that would be more along the lines of what i'm thinking of. There are levels of undetectability like there are levels to every hax. And with a power system like Stands where they are all undetectable to normal humans to begin with, I find Go Beyond Bubbles being undetectable even to Stand Users becomes much more impressive as a result.

Reacting to a telefrag is great but teleportation uses a form of energy. IIRC from what I recall about ToAru don't all Espers utilize AIM Diffusion Fields? So I would imagine if you can detect the Field the Esper utilizes you can figure out where they are aiming their ability.

Except that wasn’t an Esper power, that was Othinus’ crossbow and Touma reacted to an attack before it even began with precog in that scan. I.e. nothing to have been able to sense until after it already happened and he still detected it anyway

 

[Paxton]

Out of curiosity are there abilities that completely erase one's presence in ToAru? To the point even characters with extreme sensory abilities can't detect them at all? Like NNT Ban's Zero Sign, for example.

Cause detecting someone while they're using that would be more along the lines of what i'm thinking of. There are levels of undetectability like there are levels to every hax. And with a power system like Stands where they are all undetectable to normal humans to begin with, I find Go Beyond Bubbles being undetectable even to Stand Users becomes much more impressive as a result.

Reacting to a telefrag is great but teleportation uses a form of energy. IIRC from what I recall about ToAru don't all Espers utilize AIM Diffusion Fields? So I would imagine if you can detect the Field the Esper utilizes you can figure out where they are aiming their ability.

To be specific, that's more of an ambient energy they produce passively, rather than the actual energy they utilize for their abilities (they don't really "use" any energy iirc).

But I don't know if that changes anything.

 

[xenos5]

Too lazy to think of one right now

If you do think of one later, feel free to bring it up.

Except that wasn’t an Esper power, that was Othinus’ crossbow and Touma reacted to an attack before it even began with precog in that scan. I.e. nothing to have been able to sense until after it already happened and he still detected it anyway

Is it fair to assume magic users like Othinus and their attacks also give off an energy that other magic users can detect? If that is what Touma's precog is detecting, I doubt the non-existent Go Beyond Bubbles would give off anything like that so it may not activate to begin with.

 

[Astaro]

If you do think of one later, feel free to bring it up


Is it fair to assume magic users like Othinus and their attacks also give off an energy that other magic users can detect? If that is what Touma's precog is detecting, I doubt the non-existent Go Beyond Bubbles would give off anything like that so it may not activate to begin with.

None for that one. The only thing to detect for that attack was the whole section of space already being split apart by the attack ignoring the 3 dimensions to appear anywhere

 

[Paxton]

If you do think of one later, feel free to bring it up.

Is it fair to assume magic users like Othinus and their attacks also give off an energy that other magic users can detect? If that is what Touma's precog is detecting, I doubt the non-existent Go Beyond Bubbles would give off anything like that so it may not activate to begin with.

..probably not?

Technically speaking, the "explanation" for Touma's precog is him having immense combat experience and thus he's able to read physical tells/ambient energy from both espers and magicians (which is why he struggles against Rensa, a cyborg who turns off her emotions/tells or some shit idk I haven't read the volume in a bit)..

But this is obviously not accurate because a lot of the times it's just straight up future sight, rather than him reading their movements.

NT9 (which is when Touma "fights" Othinus) is full of stuff like this happening.

 

[xenos5]

None for that one. The only thing to detect for that attack was the whole section of space already being split apart by the attack ignoring the 3 dimensions to appear anywhere

..probably not?

Technically speaking, the "explanation" for Touma's precog is him having immense combat experience and thus he's able to read physical tells/ambient energy from both espers and magicians (which is why he struggles against Rensa, a cyborg who turns off her emotions/tells or some shit idk I haven't read the volume in a bit)..

But this is obviously not accurate because a lot of the times it's just straight up future sight, rather than him reading their movements.

NT9 (which is when Touma "fights" Othinus) is full of stuff like this happening.

If it is just straight up future sight he could just be reacting to a vision of wounds appearing on his body regardless if he understands how it would've happened. But yeah, it seems we're getting pretty in the weeds at this point.

This has been fun