• We're looking for artists. Direct message Dr. Watson for more info!

Touma and his Interactions with other Attacks

It is important to clarify that IB is not about destroying supernatural phenomena; rather, it aims to restore harmony to those elements that have been distorted. When Touma touches a person, that person will not die, even that person have a supernatural essence known as the soul. However, if the soul loses its physical anchor, IB will act upon it, sending it to another phase. The planet Earth itself is a concentration of supernatural forces (and can technically be considered alive according to the Gaia theory), yet IB does not destroy the planet upon contact. Instead, if someone distorts the ley lines, IB has the capacity to restore them, returning everything to its original state.

IB drifts along the periphery of history as a World Reference, manifesting in various forms, people, objects, places, and buildings. If his purpose were simply to highlight an untouched world, he would evoke a multitude of responses, such as deflection, distraction, and slippage. Instead, he consciously chooses to eliminate those supernatural elements that he cannot accept.
 
Masterblack06 said:
Are there any interactions it has with non magical things. Ive seen claims that IB can negate someones super strength because its not related to the pure world or some shit like that
Click to expand...
Literally every time he’s dealt with Esper abilities which work just fine at being negated?

It’s really simple. If it’s a supernatural power that goes against normal reality, it checks all the boxes for Imagine Breaker working on it

Xhominid The Apex said:
It still sounds stupid as shit to me even if it is true.
Makes me wonder how the fuck To Aru's Cosmology work if "The Pure World" somehow means just Earth and anyone and everyone born from it. Does it mean all life in the Universe started with Earth somehow?
Click to expand...
No, just anything created as a by product of something supernatural

Where the hell do you get Imagine Breaker not working on the Pure World from? If such was the case, Aiwass, a being literally from the Pure World, wouldn’t be affected by IB but Touma has blocked his attacks on two occasions, showing he is fair game against IB

What you’re referring to is Imagine Breaker being described as a reference point of the world as a whole, since it’s always around as a solution to undo whatever changes are made by Magic
 
Last edited:
Cryso Agori said:
before she was exorcised.

Iirc its power was still the same, only that it could be negated now she was just a soul.
Click to expand...
No, she was just weak enough after Accel yeeted her out of her vessel, and left her unable to user her previous power as the Great Demon
 
Astaro said:
Literally every time he’s dealt with Esper abilities which work just fine at being negated?

It’s really simple. If it’s a supernatural power that goes against normal reality, it checks all the boxes for Imagine Breaker working on it


No, just anything created as a by product of something supernatural

Where the hell do you get Imagine Breaker not working on the Pure World from? If such was the case, Aiwass wouldn’t be affected by IB but Touma has blocked his attacks on two occasions, showing he is fair game against IB

What you’re referring to is Imagine Breaker being described as a reference point of the world as a whole, since it’s always around as a solution to undo whatever changes are made by Magic
Click to expand...
Because Aiwass isn't literally from the Pure World?

He just resides there.
 
Astaro said:
It's just as bullshit and non-existent of an argument too
Click to expand...
I do disagree on this, however.

The very mechanic of IB is meant to fix distortions in the world based on the "reference point" that is the Pure World.

If shit doesn't match up, IB negates it. Simple as.

Almost every series has a spiritual power system equivalent to what Flowering brought up. They're not comparable to each other.
 
It's based on its rules. If Superman fits the reference point's rules (which I believe he does), he'll be unaffected.

It's not like Imagine Breaker is hyper-specific in negating everyone that has one too many chromosomes than is present in the Pure World.
Maybe there was a better analogy

Academy City created a scientific ghost Imagine Breaker doesn't negate. An alien's natural biology has even less reason to be negated.
 
Churronzon said:
It's based on its rules. If Superman fits the reference point's rules (which I believe he does), he'll be unaffected.

It's not like Imagine Breaker is hyper-specific in negating everyone that has one too many chromosomes than is present in the Pure World.
Maybe there was a better analogy

Academy City created a scientific ghost Imagine Breaker doesn't negate. An alien's natural biology has even less reason to be negated.
Click to expand...
Then that just means he can't negate the scientific ghost and thus its natural to the ideas of the Pure World. megacomfy
 
I already know all the scans and thought this through for way too long. That's why I asked a different question hoping it would actually lead somewhere new.
 
Also going to address this whole thing with why Touma's Imagine Breaker worked on Coronzon or not.

For one thing, it had nothing to do with Coronzon having a flesh and blood vessel somehow letting her attacks no longer count as supernatural, all it meant was that she had an entire human body with which to protect her true essence from being harmed by Touma's Imagine Breaker which she even demonstrates when she willingly takes a punch from him while in her vessel to no effect.

The real advantage to having a physical avatar while in the mortal plane is that it lets her use all her power while there. Without a physical avatar while she's in the Surface World and not where she belongs in the Abyss of the Sephirot, her power weakens significantly as she points out to Aiwass who has similar limitations when he's fighting her without an avatar for himself and eventually loses.

"Don't make me laugh. You are no more than exposed energy without an avatar. That much is clear from the fact that you borrowed his wife's body when giving him the Book of the Law. Just like me, you should only be able to wield your full power when you possess an avatar. Right now, you are like a pile of organs."
Click to expand...

So at her full power, Touma's gets obliterated by Flaming Sword, with the bolded parts making it clear that it was from Imagine Breaker not being enough to suppress the attack, not that Coronzon was somehow ignoring IB

"Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe him in thy power."

It happened suddenly.

"No!"

Kamijou Touma must not have had much of a choice.

But the small god managed to direct a shout of despair toward the swiftly moving boy.

"Wait, human!! The world's reference point is not enough to suppress this attack!!"

Yes.

Magic God Othinus had once obliterated Kamijou Touma's body with the brute force of her crossbow.

A moment later, everyone witnessed that instant.

With a dull sound, that right hand and Kamijou Touma himself were utterly destroyed.
Click to expand...

Later on, after Coronzon's been ripped out of her vessel by Accelerator and tries the same move on Touma as before, the novel points how she's now weak enough that she can no longer overpower Imagine Breaker like before with Flaming Sword now that she's without a vessel and no longer has the power of a Great Demon

Kamijou Touma.

The Great Demon’s true enemy was this one boy who had rushed along the same floor as the wheelhouse to arrive directly below here.
“……………………………………………………………………………………………You can’t possibly do it.”

Most likely, she already knew her fate. But Coronzon still moved her trembling lips below the winter sun that looked almost white.

“You could never be a match for me!! This is the Aeon of Horus and a single Magick attack can obliterate you. Know your place, human! No Great Demon shall succumb to that right hand!!!!!!”

“That no longer applies.” That exasperated voice came from baby Lilith who could also view different locations. “You only managed to obliterate that boy when you had your body of flesh and blood. Now that you are no more than Coronzon the drifting illusion, do you really think you can overwhelm that?
Click to expand...

“Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe him in thy power.”

The torrent of power rushing toward Kamijou Touma was like a repeat of the past. He could only trust in his fist and send it forward with all his might.

If this ended like last time, he would be torn apart so badly he would be painful to look at.

But things had changed.

Coronzon had been stripped of the vessel of flesh and blood she needed to function in the surface world, so this would play out differently from before.

With a high-pitched noise, the entire threat was shattered.
Click to expand...
 
I'll try talking in absolutes like every other Toaru supporter loves to do in this interpretation-riddled series. You either have the mana/Telesma to cast the spell or you don't. The spell doesn't weaken.

Your bottom two quotes don't mention power being a factor. They equally justify my conclusion.
Actually, Coronzon being referred to as a drifting illustion that IB wants to negate supports mine even moreso.

Is Coronzon stronger or the same in Da'at where she doesn't have a physical anchor/avatar?

Edit: Power can mean both physical stats and amount of Telesma possesed/wielded. It doesn't have to refer to the power of individual ultimate spells.
 
Last edited:
Churronzon said:
I'll try talking in absolutes like every other Toaru supporter loves to do in this interpretation-riddled series. You either have the mana/Telesma to cast the spell or you don't. The spell doesn't weaken.

Your bottom two quotes don't mention power being a factor. They equally justify my conclusion.
Actually, Coronzon being referred to as a drifting illustion that IB wants to negate supports mine even moreso.

Is Coronzon stronger or the same in Da'at when she doesn't have an avatar?
Click to expand...
Coronzon had been stripped of the vessel of flesh and blood she needed to function in the surface world

^ She's no longer functioning like she's able to before. What happens when something isn't functioning but trying to? Its weaker. Especially with the other quote I mentioned saying she can only use her full power with an avatar. So yes, she has Telesma still but not enough as before to overpower IB

She's Coronzon the drifting illusion but more importantly, she's no longer the Great Demon Coronzon now, the same kind of Great Demon that would be too powerful to fall against Imagine Breaker

No Great Demon shall succumb to that right hand!!!!!!”

“That no longer applies.” That exasperated voice came from baby Lilith who could also view different locations. “You only managed to obliterate that boy when you had your body of flesh and blood. Now that you are no more than Coronzon the drifting illusion, do you really think you can overwhelm that?

Seriously, cite where its stated Coronzon's spells likewise just ignore Imagine Breaker just like herself. By your logic, any human being a human means their spells made by a human would ignore IB as well

And what's more, it seems rather odd she decided to use her most powerful right off the bat against him when just hurling any of her Enochian spells would have the same effect too
 
Churronzon said:
It's based on its rules. If Superman fits the reference point's rules (which I believe he does), he'll be unaffected.

It's not like Imagine Breaker is hyper-specific in negating everyone that has one too many chromosomes than is present in the Pure World.
Maybe there was a better analogy

Academy City created a scientific ghost Imagine Breaker doesn't negate. An alien's natural biology has even less reason to be negated.
Click to expand...
Again, where is this nonsense about Pure World or not being what determines whether or not Imagine Breaker works on something?

That was never once the case in this series and your confusing Pure World with Imagine Breaker's role as the reference point of the world, two completely different subjects.

There's Aiwass, whose from the Pure World and the literal Angel of that world

“And the peak of that theory was Aiwass. That name doesn’t come from anywhere. It doesn’t belong to any religious category. …And this world is formed from the multiple magic side phases that have been placed on top of the physical laws.” She put her hands on her hips and looked to the mountain devilishness. “Aiwass is the angel of the bottommost layer…that is, of the world of pure physical laws. That is why he is Aleister’s greatest treasure. If he establishes a means of controlling Aiwass and uses that tremendous power to destroy all of the filters other than Aiwass, only a magicless world will remain.”
Click to expand...

That sword was an extreme spiritual item that fully united the three factions and four regions of the United Kingdom; it could draw on a portion of Archangel Michael's power while on British territory. If a qualified user released that power even for a moment, a swing of the sword would sever all dimensions at once and giant ruined materials would be created along the line of the slash.

Yes, all dimensions.

Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase… for example, Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom.
Click to expand...

^ And has still been negated by IB because Pure World or not, he's still a supernatural being in the end, which is the only thing that matters to IB
 
Last edited:
From what I'm seeing so far IB would negate someone increasing their stats via unnatural means but not alien biology
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top