Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 4: Outskirts Ningen Dome - Laughing edition

[Xhominid The Apex]

Never said that, In fact I said it does not need to be perfect to improve and that dealing with the death of a comrade can never be truly prepared for which is why I mentioned more about battle plans going wrong and surprise attacks since combat and war in general is unpredictable and the best they could do is make soldiers more prepared for that by focusing more on firing accuracy in a situation closer to actual combat rather than firing ranges.

I don't see how that supposedly defeats my point or even deters it? War is unpredictable, we all know that, even they know that which is why outside of saying War is unpredictable, all we can ever hope for outside of gaining literal omniscience is to do the best we can in info gathering and checking every area out.

Basically trying to teach people to not waste ammo in a war is the least biggest problem to deal with.

Well yeah of course that is impossible hence why I said the unpredictability of the human factor is for certain and why I said training should focus more on that than being perfect and everything going according to plan.

Again, you are basically asking for the impossible because there are many issues in trying to be "perfect" like that's not what they usually try and do anyway?

Xho, what I mentioned is real shit that happened with our fully trained professional volunteer forces who are told to act civil and humane as possible and there are still cases of them having gallows humor at best, and outright desecrating the enemy corpses at worst. None of what I say is making them act like "Child Soldiers from the African Sahara or Gang Members from the Ghettos", it's the reality that no matter how much you train and preach to your professional killers they are what they are, killers, and if they are already willing to take a human life than you would be naive to think they will act human all the way when every single war has involved cases of soldiers throwing their humanity away. Discipline and fear of reprisal is what keeps men in line, morals are only about as good as the higher ups are willing to enforce it. I simply used an example, albeit an extreme one, of how the real killers in an army have no problem dehumanizing the enemy, it's the rookies and people who do not have the stomach to kill that struggle with that.

You literally said they need to be like professional killers because that's what they signed up for which can rub people the wrong way. Even now, you are justifying that soldiers should gladly throw away their humanity if it will get the job done and try and justify it under an extreme example. It's like justifying the shit that happened with the Japanese Imperial Army and the Nazis because "They know how to focus on the ball".
War is Hell and any soldier can tell you that but that doesn't mean removing people's humanity entirely to the point you might as well put yourself to death when the war is done. Like what the fuck am I even reading here?!

Xho, most people in an army who actually fight in combat on more than one occasion don't give a shit about the Geneva convention, We have countless examples of Soldiers mocking and dehumanizing the enemy all the damn time in songs and jokes and in the most extreme cases we see them disrespecting the dead. They have more to fear from their commanding officers getting on their ass for getting out of line than caring about a rule set that is barely more than half a century old.

...Geneva Conventions don't stretch that far Nos...
Dehumanizing the enemy to make it easier to kill them... doesn't suddenly mean it should be covered there, that's the point of war. There's a difference between that and killing those that surrendering because "Soldiers mock and dehumanize the enemy".
I literally have seen people not even in Wars but in Real Life dehumanize the Russians, make fun of them potentially dying in a bullshit proxy War no one wants and they are too chickenshit to die for. What's legit the fucking difference at this point my man? Where does it end? Again, you are justifying extremes so "Soldiers can kill without a care in the world because they signed up for it" then trying to step back from it when people call you out.
Like pick a lane for fuck's sake.

 

[NostalgiaFan]

I don't see how that supposedly defeats my point or even deters it? War is unpredictable, we all know that, even they know that which is why outside of saying War is unpredictable, all we can ever hope for outside of gaining literal omniscience is to do the best we can in info gathering and checking every area out.

Okay so why is it such a big deal if I say we based on how badly we waste ammo that we should focus training more on how shooting in a real fight would be like rather than shooting ranges?

Basically trying to teach people to not waste ammo in a war is the least biggest problem to deal with.

Does not matter, an issue is an issue and since we are talking about something small scale like a fight between squads than it is far from the least, it only becomes so when you look at it from the strategic view which is a whole another can of worms that we don't need to talk about.

Again, you are basically asking for the impossible because there are many issues in trying to be "perfect" like that's not what they usually try and do anyway?

Read again please, I said "training should focus more on that than being perfect and everything going according to plan." I literally said we should not be perfect, seeing as how nothing ever perfectly goes to plan in war.

You literally said they need to be like professional killers because that's what they signed up for which can rub people the wrong way. Even now, you are justifying that soldiers should gladly throw away their humanity if it will get the job done and try and justify it under an extreme example. It's like justifying the shit that happened with the Japanese Imperial Army and the Nazis because "They know how to focus on the ball".
War is Hell and any soldier can tell you that but that doesn't mean removing people's humanity entirely to the point you might as well put yourself to death when the war is done. Like what the fuck am I even reading here?!

So like I thought you took the one extreme example I used and focused entirely on that and ignored the main point. I used said example to illustrate that modern soldiers who are taught not to be heartless killing machines will still have bad spots that involves them disrespecting the dead as an extreme but more often will just mock and make dark humor involving the enemy. Never said it is justified at all, I simply used it to show dehumanizing is not as hard as you make it out to be for guys who do kill on average since you said that is a huge hurdle to be able to shoot someone as a soldier.

...Geneva Conventions don't stretch that far Nos...
Dehumanizing the enemy to make it easier to kill them... doesn't suddenly mean it should be covered there, that's the point of war. There's a difference between that and killing those that surrendering because "Soldiers mock and dehumanize the enemy".

Da fuck? Dude, I am talking about a shoot out involving a very clearly engaged enemy that is not the least bit surrendering and saying soldiers need to be trained to handle the act of killing someone in that scenario better both mentally and physically when necessary and somehow you got "shoot the dude waving his hands and saying "I give up"? Like really? I said soldiers who have killed and continued to do so in combat scenarios don't give a fuck about the Genva conventions as much as they do about officers coming down on their necks when it involves making fun of the enemy and dehumanizing him. Hell I am wondering why you even mentioned the Genva convention at all when nothing I mentioned had any reason for it besides that one example of dudes pissing on a corpse that was more me showing how even when told to not do so there will still be bad apples in the Armed forces and as an example of how far even with modern military morality soldiers at their most extreme will disrespect the dead.

I literally have seen people not even in Wars but in Real Life dehumanize the Russians, make fun of them potentially dying in a bullshit proxy War no one wants and they are too chickenshit to die for.

Yeah so have I which is why I don't get how you think it is so much harder for a soldier to get over the thought of killing someone anymore than our current bloodthirsty psychopaths we call civilians.

What's legit the fucking difference at this point my man? Where does it end? Again, you are justifying extremes so "Soldiers can kill without a care in the world because they signed up for it" then trying to step back from it when people call you out.
Like pick a lane for fuck's sake.

Xho, in case you forgot what this conversation was even about, it was me saying that Soldiers need more training with shooting in a way that better reflects a real war environment to not waste so much ammo, you said how it is much harder than that and how much killing another human being is difficult and I replied that even with our current military trying to keep morals in our armed forces we still have plenty of cases of them dehumanizing the enemy which included extremes, which in case you did not get are extreme for a reason, and than proceeded to start acting like I am asking for the impossible and are now saying I am justifying shooting surrendering soldiers when all I have been talking about is concerning combat, not random mass killings for the sake of it.

I have picked my lane and stayed in it so don't start pretending I am "trying to step back after people call me out" when you have gone so far off the mark as to just put words in my mouth I never even said.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Okay I get that. What it does tell me though is that the military prioritize training with shooting ranges in the wrong way when they should instead be training soldiers on how to fire in combat while remaining calm and be as accurate as possible while restricting ammo to prevent wasting it. Because if we at our best are that fucking bad than no wonder modern warfare is such a clusterfuck even compared to wars in the past when with all the factors involved, our soldiers wasting ammo in combat is a major one.

Dude you (not you the person, you as in a theoretical collection of people in this discussion) need to be some order of bat shit to just ignore the prospect of a piece of supersonic metal packing the power of a punch (or worse, upwards of a full body charge or several times beyond it depending on caliber) compressed into the surface area of a pinhead whizzing your way.

And this is coming from someone that has lost an eye and continued going about his day as normal for the most part.

Something needs to be missing, no amount of training that isn't just flat out abuse or torture will achieve that

 

[NostalgiaFan]

Dude you need to be some order of bat shit to just ignore the prospect of a piece of supersonic metal packing the power of a punch (or worse, upwards of a full body charge or several times beyond it depending on caliber) compressed into the surface area of a pinhead whizzing your way.

Well you have to be some sort of crazy to even risk going into an environment where said supersonic metal packing the power of a punch can hit you anywhere on your body so not too far off from modern professional soldiers.

Being real tho I said there is no way to be perfectly prepared and that all rookies are going to be scared as shit when meeting real combat. I am arguing more that we should focus more on doing the best to prepare them for the unpredictable and not have them focus on everything going right, which is like going from 5 to 8% on the prepared scale being optimistic.

And this is coming from someone that has lost an eye and continued going about his day as normal for the most part.

Something needs to be missing, no amount of training that isn't just flat out abuse or torture will achieve that

It's why I thank god we don't have draft where poor fuckers like me and you would be forced into shit like that since we both would be screwed.

 

[NostalgiaFan]

Honestly this whole argument is getting even me annoyed at this rate since it spiraled far out of what I was originally talking about and it really has nothing to do with the thread at hand so I am just ending it here before it gets anymore dragged out.


@Masterblack06
Apologies if the arguments annoyed you as much as it did the rest of us.

 

[Adamant soul]

>because it's a kid show no one can be mentally as strong
>comparing pokemon to family guy and then game of thrones.

Fuck off Xcano. The shit you say has to be some of the dumbest shit I've seen in a long.

Digimon is also a "kid's show".
> Has several characters (notably Ken and Juri) experience total psychological break downs over their grief at the loss of loved ones.

Idiots like this can FUCK RIGHT OFF with this notion that kid's shows can't be taken seriously or their characters can't be every bit as mentally strong, if not stronger in some cases than characters from non 'kid's shows".

Next he's gonna say that yugioh protagonists would also suffer from ptsd as well.

Fucking Clown tier shit

> Judai basically DID get PTSD as a result of the events of Season 3, his arc in Season 4 is largely him trying to move on from it.
> Mai's whole reason for turning in the Waking the Dragons arc was the trauma she experienced in Battle City.

I could go on but there's really no point.

I don't even want to know if I want to touch the rest of that as it's literally just bitching and moaning and going "It's a Kid's Show, stop taking shit seriously" when alot of the serious shit in the Pokemon Anime comes from the games(To the point there's no real difference past how blatantly they show some of them off)

It being a Kid's show isn't a reason not to take it seriously, especially when the show itself, more often than not, plays it completely seriously. Like the numerous Pokemon Ash has "caught" which were abuse victims and how their arcs in that respect continued throughout the region (Chimchar - Infernape's a good example). But nah that doesn't count because it's a "kid's show".

Dude should avoid watching Digimon (especially subbed), because it would blow his fucking mind how dark that "kid's show" gets a lot of the time as I alluded to earlier.

 

[Astaro]

Nobody in Attack on Titan would handle a Shadow Game with Yami Marik

 

[Adamant soul]

Nobody in Attack on Titan would handle a Shadow Game with Yami Marik

Nobody in Attack on Titan would handle a Shadow Game with Atem/Yami Yugi, never mind Yami Marik or Yami Bakura.

Those Penalty games are some mind-breaking shit, when they don't just outright kill you like the dumb fuck who threatened Anzu with a gun.

Meanwhile Kaiba shrugged one the fuck off like the mad Chad he is.

 

[Astaro]

Could be worse. They could be facing Hugh Neutron

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

Digimon is also a "kid's show".
> Has several characters (notably Ken and Juri) experience total psychological break downs over their grief at the loss of loved ones.

Idiots like this can FUCK RIGHT OFF with this notion that kid's shows can't be taken seriously or their characters can't be every bit as mentally strong, if not stronger in some cases than characters from non 'kid's shows".

> Judai basically DID get PTSD as a result of the events of Season 3, his arc in Season 4 is largely him trying to move on from it.
> Mai's whole reason for turning in the Waking the Dragons arc was the trauma she experienced in Battle City.

I could go on but there's really no point.

It being a Kid's show isn't a reason not to take it seriously, especially when the show itself, more often than not, plays it completely seriously. Like the numerous Pokemon Ash has "caught" which were abuse victims and how their arcs in that respect continued throughout the region (Chimchar - Infernape's a good example). But nah that doesn't count because it's a "kid's show".

Dude should avoid watching Digimon (especially subbed), because it would blow his fucking mind how dark that "kid's show" gets a lot of the as I alluded to earlier.

Reminds me that somebody that I used to know said it's pointless having deep themes in a kids show because kids would miss the point.

Because it's not like you can't look back when you're older and say "woah that shit was deep" but as a kid just enjoy the pretty colours and whacky times.

 

[Adamant soul]

Reminds me that somebody that I used to know said it's pointless having deep themes in a kids show because kids would miss the point.

Because it's not like you can't look back when you're older and say "woah that shit was deep" but as a kid just enjoy the pretty colours and whacky times.

And that's ignoring the fact that some kids WOULD understand it, at least partially if not completely. Kids are smarter than people give them credit for and we shouldn't treat them like they're idiots when writing material aimed at them.

Having these deep themes also introduces them to concepts they'll have to come to terms with at some point in their lives. If anything, not only is it NOT pointless, but it's NECESSARY to include these themes in at least some kid's shows.

Of course that doesn't mean they all have to have them but it also gives something for the adults to enjoy when they watch the shows with their kids. Like how MLP: FiM has a ton of references to shit like Benny Hill which kids wouldn't get but their parents might.

Long story short, don't treat kids like they're idiots.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

And that's ignoring the fact that some kids WOULD understand it, at least partially if not completely. Kids are smarter than people give them credit for and we shouldn't treat them like they're idiots when writing material aimed at them.

Having these deep themes also introduces them to concepts they'll have to come to terms with at some point in their lives. If anything, not only is it NOT pointless, but it's NECESSARY to include these themes in at least some kid's shows.

Of course that doesn't mean they all have to have them but it also gives something for the adults to enjoy when they watch the shows with their kids. Like how MLP: FiM has a ton of references to shit like Benny Hill which kids wouldn't get but their parents might.

Long story short, don't treat kids like they're idiots.

Oh yes, that too.

Also the fact that something can jump out at you in a rewatch and you cannot even realise that this is what the messege was. Sometimes it can stand out if you're going through a hard time.

But no, cartoons can only have straightforward moral lessons.*

*Which a cartoon can have, but there's no harm in going deeper too.

 

[Adamant soul]

How to Properly Execute a Plot Twist (will likely contain spoilers)

A plot twist is an essential part of telling a good story; catching the audience by surprise is a great way to add drama and increase tension, but being able to properly execute a plot twist is not an easy task; too often, a plot twist either is too easy to predict, such as the true identity of...

www.fanverse.org

I don't take non-writer's suggestions of what telling writers to do seriously.

This shit might be just as bad as the "kid's show" argument.

You don't need to have ever actually been in a Boxing ring or UFC cage in your life to be able to tell good technique from bad technique. A lot of it can be gleaned just from observation and common sense.

Similarly you don't need to actually be a writer to be able to tell good writing from bad writing. You simply need to have experienced both enough to be able to recognize the difference between them.

The "argument" that you need to be a writer to criticize one is just an excuse bad writers use to hide from valid criticism. It HAS NEVER and WILL NEVER hold any weight whatsoever.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

How to Properly Execute a Plot Twist (will likely contain spoilers)

A plot twist is an essential part of telling a good story; catching the audience by surprise is a great way to add drama and increase tension, but being able to properly execute a plot twist is not an easy task; too often, a plot twist either is too easy to predict, such as the true identity of...

www.fanverse.org

This shit might be just as bad as the "kid's show" argument.

You don't need to have ever actually been in a Boxing ring or UFC cage in your life to be able to tell good technique from bad technique. A lot of it can be gleaned just from observation and common sense.

Similarly you don't need to actually be a writer to be able to tell good writing from bad writing. You simply need to have experienced both enough to be able to recognize the difference between them.

The "argument" that you need to be a writer to criticize one is just an excuse bad writers use to hide from valid criticism. It HAS NEVER and WILL NEVER hold any weight whatsoever.

Reminder of the time Chuck Wendig said LOTR was bad so everyone ripped into his Disney Wars novel.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

How to Properly Execute a Plot Twist (will likely contain spoilers)

A plot twist is an essential part of telling a good story; catching the audience by surprise is a great way to add drama and increase tension, but being able to properly execute a plot twist is not an easy task; too often, a plot twist either is too easy to predict, such as the true identity of...

www.fanverse.org

This shit might be just as bad as the "kid's show" argument.

You don't need to have ever actually been in a Boxing ring or UFC cage in your life to be able to tell good technique from bad technique. A lot of it can be gleaned just from observation and common sense.

Similarly you don't need to actually be a writer to be able to tell good writing from bad writing. You simply need to have experienced both enough to be able to recognize the difference between them.

The "argument" that you need to be a writer to criticize one is just an excuse bad writers use to hide from valid criticism. It HAS NEVER and WILL NEVER hold any weight whatsoever.

writers are typically writing in service of non writers anyways, what a bizarre stance to take. The message and execution of a story will land with a person if well written because they’re endemic to human experience, which everyone can understand on some level just not necessarily articulate

 

[Adamant soul]

Reminder of the time Chuck Wendig said LOTR was bad so everyone ripped into his Disney Wars novel.

Disney Wars writer trying to talk shit about Tolkein's work like he has a leg to stand on.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

his writing really is dogshit too, just really really awful stuff lmao
it’s the book equivalent of what joss whedon did to movies, except at least those had visuals. Wendig just has this shitty semi ironic smug writing style to carry you through everything

 

[Adamant soul]

his writing really is dogshit too, just really really awful stuff lmao
it’s the book equivalent of what joss whedon did to movies, except at least those had visuals. Wendig just has this shitty semi ironic smug writing style to carry you through everything

So typical Disney Wars crap is what you're saying.

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

his writing really is dogshit too, just really really awful stuff lmao
it’s the book equivalent of what joss whedon did to movies, except at least those had visuals. Wendig just has this shitty semi ironic smug writing style to carry you through everything

I thankfully haven't actually read anything by him, but I remember people would take exerts from the better old EU novels (on the lost of life on Alderaan and the temptations of the Dark Side) and place it next to Wendigs "the starfighter went zippy wippy woosh boosh above the buildings" to show how bad Disney was with this.

 

[Proto234]

Reminder of the time Chuck Wendig said LOTR was bad so everyone ripped into his Disney Wars novel.

Isn't he the one that writes Aftermath trilogy, which established Empire to be defeated so quickly, which imo very stupid since it deprives Disney from any additional materials (like Imperial warlords) between Aftermath and Episode 7

Nevermind the premise behind that is stupid af (Operation Cinder to this day still stupid af in and out side universe)