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Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 5: Diamonds are fleeting. Stupid lasts forever
- Thread starter Masterblack06
- Start date
the shit was dumb because not a single person on this site wanks kratos but he kept complaining about wank for no reasonReminds me of Bob74h screaming about God of War wank for days on here where he had almost nobody to complain about it to rather than CV or VBW
Lucifer Morningstar: 5 Dragon Ball Warriors He Would Easily Defeat (& 5 He'd Lose To)
Lucifer Morningstar is one devilishly powerful DC character. But how would he measure up against Dragon Ball warriors? Who could he beat in the anime?
www.cbr.com 
grillmaster
Exceptional
CBR writers aren't human i stand by this, and i dont mean it as an insult i think its all robots atp
Bleach vs silver surfer
Outliers exist. I deal with outliers everyday on my work. LT also restored the multiverse many times. When you have multiple writers outliers will tend to exist If Batman has statements of being planet level, yet has anti-feats of not being planet level, then he isn't planet level. Likewise, if...www.fanverse.org
this is the funniest fep moment yet sub universal Marvel
ALL OF MARVEL
grillmaster
Exceptional
grillmaster
Exceptional
ok so i noticed i hit 666 points so i was gonna work on my post about why unicron is one of my favorite greater scope villains (cause i want to describe something about him other than him being absurdly powerful, look i like talking about tf feats and scaling but i have seen unicron brought up so much in powerscaling discussions that my eyes actually start to glaze over. besides i personally think that understanding him as a character and a lot of his context would make said scaling make so much more sense (ie many times ive seen people utterly fucking baffled as to how the autobots, who most people only know from like the movies where theyre strong but not that strong, defeat this guy who can blow up infinite infinities or whatever
it'd also work to combat bullshit like "IDW shockwave is the only multiversal tf character, unicron comes close though"
but i am unable to compose my thoughts properly and it just turned into a rant about the Shroud so im gonna do that
i know not everyone here is as big on transformers but this is why the shroud is so annoying to talk about
its basically a representation of the tendency of tf fans to weirdly reject any alternative interpretation of the series, its characters and lore, when there existed and still exists an entire multiverse of endless worlds for this sole purpose, and they reject THAT because they think its dumb or too much like capeshit or whatever
which is frankly kind of insulting because being real, the main reason that transformers has endured over the years, is that its constantly reinventing itself, its why theres like 30 different main continuities, and like a dozen cartoons here in the west alone
if the series survives its going to be because of that ability to reinvent itself, and it just feels like a lot of fans only want to see their ideal version of transformers like some sort of unending stasis where everything is the same forever
it'd also work to combat bullshit like "IDW shockwave is the only multiversal tf character, unicron comes close though"
but i am unable to compose my thoughts properly and it just turned into a rant about the Shroud so im gonna do that
i just really really do not like the Shroud
like fuck powerscaling for a second, its just insufferable to me on so many levels
first example, OG has mentioned before but it was going to put a stop to multiversal travel??? which was such a stupid idea that hilariously its so far the one part of the shroud that i am aware of to be immediately and utterly fucking ignored and forgotten by literally everyone
the other thing is i just hate what it represents, because the main reason the shroud happened was because people were pedantic and couldn't understand how multiversal singularities work (when its explained time and time again) or worse, they just didn't like it
now its not that they disliked it thats the problem, its that they hated it so much that they tried to erase the concept from the canon????
and im supposed to approve???
i have a lot of shit in transformers that i hate or find obnoxious (for example, plots of humans hating the autobots just get on my nerves atp, how many times do the autobots have to stop the decepticons from throwing people into blenders before people realize they aren't the bad guys)
and its bothersome because they hate it not because of anything bad about the concept itself, but because tf fans are really fucking annoying sometimes with how they reject cosmic storytelling, they thought it was dumb and didn't make sense because they thought it was dumb, and didnt care whether it made sense or not
best example of this is people will ask questions about the transformers multiverse or its lore and get the most insufferable, backhanded responses ever for no good reason
serious interactions i saw once btw:
Q: "who is more powerful than unicron"
A: "bob budiansky"
Q: "hey guys im gonna make a series of posts about the strongest tf characters"
A: "doesnt matter/ its inconsistent and no one cares"
like because you think its irrelevant or stupid or whatever nobody should bother thinking about it, the Shroud is basically that mentality but they tried to literally make it canon
the worst part to me is sometimes people who do care will come ask "Where was the Fallen during the Shroud" and the only answer i can give is that he was in the background of like one panel
the most insufferable thing about the shroud, for all the insane far reaching effects its supposed to have, the event itself is the most anti climactic thing you've ever seen
if youve seen this page before, this is basically the entire fucking event (the only way we know the fallen is there is that is him on the right btw behind the text boxes)
he has no lines, he doesn't do anything
Unicron and Primus have nothing to do with the plot of the Shroud, they basically get killed offscreen and Unicron, the ultimate villain of transformers, gets handwaved away as no longer being the threat he once was
like fuck powerscaling for a second, its just insufferable to me on so many levels
first example, OG has mentioned before but it was going to put a stop to multiversal travel??? which was such a stupid idea that hilariously its so far the one part of the shroud that i am aware of to be immediately and utterly fucking ignored and forgotten by literally everyone
the other thing is i just hate what it represents, because the main reason the shroud happened was because people were pedantic and couldn't understand how multiversal singularities work (when its explained time and time again) or worse, they just didn't like it
now its not that they disliked it thats the problem, its that they hated it so much that they tried to erase the concept from the canon????
and im supposed to approve???
i have a lot of shit in transformers that i hate or find obnoxious (for example, plots of humans hating the autobots just get on my nerves atp, how many times do the autobots have to stop the decepticons from throwing people into blenders before people realize they aren't the bad guys)
and its bothersome because they hate it not because of anything bad about the concept itself, but because tf fans are really fucking annoying sometimes with how they reject cosmic storytelling, they thought it was dumb and didn't make sense because they thought it was dumb, and didnt care whether it made sense or not
best example of this is people will ask questions about the transformers multiverse or its lore and get the most insufferable, backhanded responses ever for no good reason
serious interactions i saw once btw:
Q: "who is more powerful than unicron"
A: "bob budiansky"
Q: "hey guys im gonna make a series of posts about the strongest tf characters"
A: "doesnt matter/ its inconsistent and no one cares"
like because you think its irrelevant or stupid or whatever nobody should bother thinking about it, the Shroud is basically that mentality but they tried to literally make it canon
the worst part to me is sometimes people who do care will come ask "Where was the Fallen during the Shroud" and the only answer i can give is that he was in the background of like one panel
the most insufferable thing about the shroud, for all the insane far reaching effects its supposed to have, the event itself is the most anti climactic thing you've ever seen
if youve seen this page before, this is basically the entire fucking event (the only way we know the fallen is there is that is him on the right btw behind the text boxes)
he has no lines, he doesn't do anything
Unicron and Primus have nothing to do with the plot of the Shroud, they basically get killed offscreen and Unicron, the ultimate villain of transformers, gets handwaved away as no longer being the threat he once was
i know not everyone here is as big on transformers but this is why the shroud is so annoying to talk about
its basically a representation of the tendency of tf fans to weirdly reject any alternative interpretation of the series, its characters and lore, when there existed and still exists an entire multiverse of endless worlds for this sole purpose, and they reject THAT because they think its dumb or too much like capeshit or whatever
which is frankly kind of insulting because being real, the main reason that transformers has endured over the years, is that its constantly reinventing itself, its why theres like 30 different main continuities, and like a dozen cartoons here in the west alone
if the series survives its going to be because of that ability to reinvent itself, and it just feels like a lot of fans only want to see their ideal version of transformers like some sort of unending stasis where everything is the same forever
Last edited:
grillmaster
Exceptional
the most important reason given for the Shroud is because of all the inconsistencies that pile up between iterations but the thing is those were explained over and over and over again they all just ignored it or thought it was bullshit
grillmaster
Exceptional
like i found this one forum thread that actually almost made me mad it sounds stupid but it did, i will try and find it to prove my point but really don't even wanna read it again
grillmaster
Exceptional
i found it again, Lord give me strength
Completely agree with this. I know it comes off as a hunger for power level nonsense, because I know I make the sometimes most bizarre claims about TF power levels, but it's really on a narrative level that the Shroud sucks so much to me. Unicron is written off as a one-note villain by many people because he's usually just a big destructive setpiece, and he only really becomes a much deeper and even kind of meta villain and an antithesis to everything Transformers stories represent when you start to dig deeper into the lore. The Shroud makes it so that same kind of lore that made him such a terrifying and effective villain can't happen any more, and yeah sure writers have completely ignored this since, the point is why would you even try to do that to the character? It's a plot decision that only serves to limit the amount of choices you and future writers have, and similar to the multiversal travel bit, it would only have a negative effect on Transformers stories because characters ending up in different timelines has been a staple of the storytelling for decades.ok so i noticed i hit 666 points so i was gonna work on my post about why unicron is one of my favorite greater scope villains (cause i want to describe something about him other than him being absurdly powerful, look i like talking about tf feats and scaling but i have seen unicron brought up so much in powerscaling discussions that my eyes actually start to glaze over. besides i personally think that understanding him as a character and a lot of his context would make said scaling make so much more sense (ie many times ive seen people utterly fucking baffled as to how the autobots, who most people only know from like the movies where theyre strong but not that strong, defeat this guy who can blow up infinite infinities or whatever
it'd also work to combat bullshit like "IDW shockwave is the only multiversal tf character, unicron comes close though"
but i am unable to compose my thoughts properly and it just turned into a rant about the Shroud so im gonna do that
i just really really do not like the Shroud
like fuck powerscaling for a second, its just insufferable to me on so many levels
first example, OG has mentioned before but it was going to put a stop to multiversal travel??? which was such a stupid idea that hilariously its so far the one part of the shroud that i am aware of to be immediately and utterly fucking ignored and forgotten by literally everyone
the other thing is i just hate what it represents, because the main reason the shroud happened was because people were pedantic and couldn't understand how multiversal singularities work (when its explained time and time again) or worse, they just didn't like it
now its not that they disliked it thats the problem, its that they hated it so much that they tried to erase the concept from the canon????
and im supposed to approve???
i have a lot of shit in transformers that i hate or find obnoxious (for example, plots of humans hating the autobots just get on my nerves atp, how many times do the autobots have to stop the decepticons from throwing people into blenders before people realize they aren't the bad guys)
and its bothersome because they hate it not because of anything bad about the concept itself, but because tf fans are really fucking annoying sometimes with how they reject cosmic storytelling, they thought it was dumb and didn't make sense because they thought it was dumb, and didnt care whether it made sense or not
best example of this is people will ask questions about the transformers multiverse or its lore and get the most insufferable, backhanded responses ever for no good reason
serious interactions i saw once btw:
Q: "who is more powerful than unicron"
A: "bob budiansky"
Q: "hey guys im gonna make a series of posts about the strongest tf characters"
A: "doesnt matter/ its inconsistent and no one cares"
like because you think its irrelevant or stupid or whatever nobody should bother thinking about it, the Shroud is basically that mentality but they tried to literally make it canon
the worst part to me is sometimes people who do care will come ask "Where was the Fallen during the Shroud" and the only answer i can give is that he was in the background of like one panel
the most insufferable thing about the shroud, for all the insane far reaching effects its supposed to have, the event itself is the most anti climactic thing you've ever seen
if youve seen this page before, this is basically the entire fucking event (the only way we know the fallen is there is that is him on the right btw behind the text boxes)
he has no lines, he doesn't do anything
Unicron and Primus have nothing to do with the plot of the Shroud, they basically get killed offscreen and Unicron, the ultimate villain of transformers, gets handwaved away as no longer being the threat he once was
i know not everyone here is as big on transformers but this is why the shroud is so annoying to talk about
its basically a representation of the tendency of tf fans to weirdly reject any alternative interpretation of the series, its characters and lore, when there existed and still exists an entire multiverse of endless worlds for this sole purpose, and they reject THAT because they think its dumb or too much like capeshit or whatever
which is frankly kind of insulting because being real, the main reason that transformers has endured over the years, is that its constantly reinventing itself, its why theres like 30 different main continuities, and like a dozen cartoons here in the west alone
if the series survives its going to be because of that ability to reinvent itself, and it just feels like a lot of fans only want to see their ideal version of transformers like some sort of unending stasis where everything is the same forever
And most of the time it has nothing to do with anything remotely cosmic or powerscaling applicable, TF writers just like to use parallel worlds as a storytelling device, one really good example was James Roberts' Functionist Universe showcasing the moral ramifications of someone like Megatron existing vs not existing. Doesn't benefit anyone in terms of "power" but if the Shroud was followed strictly, we never could have gotten an arc like Elegant Chaos....which is one of the best received Transformers comic storylines that have ever been done. You can quickly see why this is a problem, but even recent more kid aimed media like the Cyberverse cartoon relied heavily on alternate worlds. What is the purpose of depriving a writer the ability to do that? I don't dislike the writing of the guy who did the Shroud, but he is outspoken that he disliked things like the 13 Primes being basically gods and seemed to be proud he "broke the multiverse". Cosmic Transformers stories were largely relegated to obscure comics only a small group of select fans even read, so why ruin it for the people who did enjoy that stuff?
With regards to Unicron, TF is different from a lot of contemporaries. Evil is stronger than good, God (The One) is largely indifferent, and it falls to the hands of every living thing to resist the pull of decay and corruption. This has been the crux of nearly every single Transformers story in some form, even the Bayformers movies include this despite almost certainly being unaware of its omnipresence as a thematic element in the comics. Primus sacrifices his own agency to hold back Unicron, while other characters sacrifice their lives to slow evil. Andrew Wildman's afterword in Regeneration One is maybe the most poignantly this was directly explained in regard to the spiritual and moral elements of the series.
Funnily enough and to your point, while looking for this the first thing to come up was a review about how bad this comic was and how if anyone wanted to read Re: One after, the reviewer had failed their job. Regeneration One has one of my favorite endings of any comic I've read, it hits me in the stomach like a hammer every time and threads every one of these weightier themes together potently and painfully, because Transformers isn't a superhero franchise, it's a toy franchise about war, and the characters do not usually get any real happy endings because the defeat of great malice necessitates great sacrifice.
This is also crucial, from a lorehead POV there was never an actual need for the Shroud. Forest Lee had already outlined how and why the contradictory elements work...the characters are outside of time and space, they do not experience events linearly, he even outright said they have many contradictory histories! As a purely narrative element it was an anticlimax that failed to actually involve its relevant characters in any meaningful way, so I can not even give it that benefit. I am glad other writers are ignoring it and hope we get a "Big Unicron" arc in the future, not for power, but to re-establish him as the threat he should be.
NGL just looking at the first couple of pages and it's all don't fuck with TF Fans we don't even read our own series
TF isn't exactly a stranger to putting out some bullshit either but it definitely fared better than...some big name franchises
This is worse
grillmaster
Exceptional
you write way better than me lmaoCompletely agree with this. I know it comes off as a hunger for power level nonsense, because I know I make the sometimes most bizarre claims about TF power levels, but it's really on a narrative level that the Shroud sucks so much to me. Unicron is written off as a one-note villain by many people because he's usually just a big destructive setpiece, and he only really becomes a much deeper and even kind of meta villain and an antithesis to everything Transformers stories represent when you start to dig deeper into the lore. The Shroud makes it so that same kind of lore that made him such a terrifying and effective villain can't happen any more, and yeah sure writers have completely ignored this since, the point is why would you even try to do that to the character? It's a plot decision that only serves to limit the amount of choices you and future writers have, and similar to the multiversal travel bit, it would only have a negative effect on Transformers stories because characters ending up in different timelines has been a staple of the storytelling for decades.
And most of the time it has nothing to do with anything remotely cosmic or powerscaling applicable, TF writers just like to use parallel worlds as a storytelling device, one really good example was James Roberts' Functionist Universe showcasing the moral ramifications of someone like Megatron existing vs not existing. Doesn't benefit anyone in terms of "power" but if the Shroud was followed strictly, we never could have gotten an arc like Elegant Chaos....which is one of the best received Transformers comic storylines that have ever been done. You can quickly see why this is a problem, but even recent more kid aimed media like the Cyberverse cartoon relied heavily on alternate worlds. What is the purpose of depriving a writer the ability to do that? I don't dislike the writing of the guy who did the Shroud, but he is outspoken that he disliked things like the 13 Primes being basically gods and seemed to be proud he "broke the multiverse". Cosmic Transformers stories were largely relegated to obscure comics only a small group of select fans even read, so why ruin it for the people who did enjoy that stuff?
With regards to Unicron, TF is different from a lot of contemporaries. Evil is stronger than good, God (The One) is largely indifferent, and it falls to the hands of every living thing to resist the pull of decay and corruption. This has been the crux of nearly every single Transformers story in some form, even the Bayformers movies include this despite almost certainly being unaware of its omnipresence as a thematic element in the comics. Primus sacrifices his own agency to hold back Unicron, while other characters sacrifice their lives to slow evil. Andrew Wildman's afterword in Regeneration One is maybe the most poignantly this was directly explained in regard to the spiritual and moral elements of the series.
Funnily enough and to your point, while looking for this the first thing to come up was a review about how bad this comic was and how if anyone wanted to read Re: One after, the reviewer had failed their job. Regeneration One has one of my favorite endings of any comic I've read, it hits me in the stomach like a hammer every time and threads every one of these weightier themes together potently and painfully, because Transformers isn't a superhero franchise, it's a toy franchise about war, and the characters do not usually get any real happy endings because the defeat of great malice necessitates great sacrifice.
This is also crucial, from a lorehead POV there was never an actual need for the Shroud. Forest Lee had already outlined how and why the contradictory elements work...the characters are outside of time and space, they do not experience events linearly, he even outright said they have many contradictory histories! As a purely narrative element it was an anticlimax that failed to actually involve its relevant characters in any meaningful way, so I can not even give it that benefit. I am glad other writers are ignoring it and hope we get a "Big Unicron" arc in the future, not for power, but to re-establish him as the threat he should be.