Cloud Strife, Zack Fair, and Sephiroth enter ToAru

[Xhominid The Apex]

I said this before and will say it again.

'Some people' would genuinely argue for Fate Calibration to be fanfic because you 'only' see what it does without a 50 page long terribly written anime explanation attached to it.

I've had that same "discussion" for similar shit and different abilities in other series despite getting clear and concise explanations...

I do not know at all how you can completely miss how The Ultimate End works and think it's just BFR when it explicitly does damage ingame and Thordan wonders how you SURVIVED it...
This would make more sense if this was Eldibus WoL who DOES try and BFR you and damn near succeeded.

 

[Astaro]

I've had that same "discussion" for similar shit and different abilities in other series despite getting clear and concise explanations...

I do not know at all how you can completely miss how The Ultimate End works and think it's just BFR when it explicitly does damage ingame and Thordan wonders how you SURVIVED it...
This would make more sense if this was Eldibus WoL who DOES try and BFR you and damn near succeeded.

BFR via spatial tear is plenty damage if you get caught in said tear

 

[Qinglong]

King Thordan's Ultimate End is literally Knights of the Round... which summon attack is... Ultimate End

1.計闇のかなたで輝ていた光が強くなり、アーサー王が登場。
The light shining beyond the darkness grew stronger, and King Arthur appeared.

2. 顔全体を覆うカブトからわずかにのぞく目を光らせたのち。
Then his eyes peeked out slightly from the helmet that covered his entire face, shining brightly.

3. 深紅のマントを広げ,両手で聖剣エクスカリバーを振りかざす。
He spreads his crimson cloak and brandishes the holy sword Excalibur in both hands.

4. エクスカリバーを豪快に振り下ろし、円卓の騎士たちの連続攻撃をしめくくるアーサー王。
King Arthur swings down Excalibur with great force, finishing off the successive attacks by the Knights of the Round Table.

5. エクスカリバーの衝撃波が広がり、空間にヒビが入ってく。
The shock wave from Excalibur spreads, causing cracks to appear in space.

6. 空間がこまか割くれ、次元のはざまが消滅する。
The space cracks into tiny pieces and the gaps between dimensions disappear.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

BFR via spatial tear is plenty damage if you get caught in said tear

"You survived my Divine Reckoning!? Impossible!"

Very clearly can't even do anything more than flail around despite being power not just by Nidhogg's eyes but also the prayers and thoughts of Ishgardians for their salvation against the Dragons
Somehow it's just a BFR attack that "does damage" getting caught in tears which tears through dimensions

If you want to go by that absurd logic then basically I guess everything Othinus ever did is just BFR then.

 

[Astaro]

"You survived my Divine Reckoning!? Impossible!"



If you want to go by that absurd logic then basically I guess everything Othinus ever did is just BFR then.

Confirmation that the entire dimension was destroyed. Again, I question this when just a glass shattering seems to be the only thing being argued

Othinus isn’t just BFR because the novel makes it perfectly clear the entire world checked out whenever she does so

 

[JayK]

Our self proclaimed expert on what dimension busting has to visually look like.

 

[Astaro]

I’d imagine something less vague

Like actually seeing the actual dimension collapse and destroyed entirely

 

[Gordo]

The dimension destruction thing comes from the Ultimania, which was posted above

 

[Astaro]

Even the Ultimania description is vague but I’m not going to push this any further beyond saying this is pretty weak compared to the standards I’ve often seen demanded here

If a space being cracked apart is enough to argue a character obliterated the universe, then you got at least Universal John’s Pen Mode Index in Volume 1

For an instant, the two magic circles centered on her eyes glowed before exploding. More specifically, it seemed like an explosion of high voltage electricity occurred in a point in space between Index's eyes, and lightning scattered in every direction.

However, rather than bluish-white electricity, the lightning was pitch black.

Though an unscientific description, space itself had seemingly cracked open. Centered at the point where the two magic circles crossed, pitch black spatial cracks spread out in every directions to the edges of the room.

It was like a window that was shot by a bullet. It almost seemed like a type of barrier preventing anyone from approaching Index.

…

The giant cracks opened wide enough to reach the edges of the room and the "thing" inside peered out.

Anyway @Xhominid The Apex how does Opera Omnia make things a thrashing.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Confirmation that the entire dimension was destroyed. Again, I question this when just a glass shattering seems to be the only thing being argued

Othinus isn’t just BFR because the novel makes it perfectly clear the entire world checked out whenever she does so

Entire Dimension which the battle takes place in is literally destroyed and literally shatters like glass: Somehow not a confirmation
Othinus being able to do it despite the narration stating it literally shatters like glass: Somehow a confirmation

Astaro please... stop doing this stupid game already.

I’d imagine something less vague

Like actually seeing the actual dimension collapse and destroyed entirely

...What the hell is less vague then literally seeing the very dimension collapse from what King Thordan created?!



Come on man, this is absolutely asinine even for you.

Even the Ultimania description is vague but I’m not going to push this any further beyond saying this is pretty weak compared to the standards I’ve often seen demanded here

...

Literally describes how KoTR ends in FFVII which is no different than how FFXIV KoTR ends... which is the entire point of the fight is that very reference made manifest

If a space being cracked apart is enough to argue a character obliterated the universe, then you got at least Universal John’s Pen Mode Index in Volume 1

For one, if this is supposed to be the scope of your arguments, don't even bother trying to pretend this is you supposed to be fair...
For two:

Though an unscientific description, space itself had seemingly cracked open. Centered at the point where the two magic circles crossed, pitch black spatial cracks spread out in every directions to the edges of the room.

Seemingly used in that context doesn't make it a guarantee and it's the character guessing that's the case.

Anyway @Xhominid The Apex how does Opera Omnia make things a thrashing.

Because Opera Omnia primarily includes not only the entire Final Fantasy Multiverse but includes Dissidia's Multiverse(As stated in the first Dissidia with World B being the lynchpin that creates countless World A's and later in Dissidia 2 that Feral Chaos is explicitly a What-If Chaos from a different timeline that went mad and invaded the game's timeline.) which has Multiversal beings and concepts the characters faces and defeat.
Basically the already massive scope of Final Fantasy gets even more absurd and actually gels completely with FFXI and FFXIV with Dissida

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

And before you be cute and try and lie about how Summons work in FFVII and the franchise by default:

Misconceptions about VS. Debating

I was planning on talking about this sooner or later, but just bringing up in the Convo... wouldn't really be what I wanted to do with this and to be frank, this needs to be in the Meta-Battledome Discussion(And I haven't made a thread in months). Something that I have found... disturbing in...

onelastforum.com

I explicitly picked this because I knew well in advance someone may pull some nonsense:

Sephiroth here very clearly explains the origins of the Materia(That it is Condensed Mako in it's purest form) and how characters can cast Magic and he virtually explains it as thus(paraphrasing here):
Materia works as a conduit as the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients to be able to freely use the powers of the Land and Planet to use Magic.

3:22
"Spirit Energy(The Lifestream) is what makes all things possible, Humans, Animals and Birds. Spirit Energy isn't just limited to Living things, it's also what makes Planets to be Planets"
Bugenhagen then demonstrates what happens when you absorb the Spirit Energy from the Planet(or it disappears) and the Planet ultimately rips itself apart and ceases to live. This is also brought up in Dirge of Cerebus as The Omega Weapon's main purpose to gather the Lifestream of the entire Planet and leave it, causing the Planet to die but to find a new Planet to add it back into.

Summoned Beasts

Beings which are called forth from summon materia, many of which outwardly resemble monsters. As seen in the original game of FFVII, many of the summon beasts draw their targets into their own unique space in order to attack. However, Advent Children’s Bahamut Tremor, was a special summon beast who attacked while interacting with the real world.

TL;DR The Summons outwardly create their own unique spaces and as shown with Bahamut ZERO and other Summons, the very space of the Solar System and then some are encompassed in the Summons with the exact place and distances.
Knights of The Round explicitly shows a HUGE level of Space that not even Bahamut Zero or Bahamut Fury covers.
FFXIV also have a Lifestream meaning it's mechanics should be exactly the same as shown with FFX's Farplane is damn near similar to how The Lifestream works in FFVII(Which is meant to be a very obvious parallel).

KoTR obliterates their entire dimension, Cloud, Zack and Sephiroth easily scale to it.

 

[Astaro]

Astaro please... stop doing this stupid game already.



...What the hell is less vague then literally seeing the very dimension collapse from what King Thordan created?!



Come on man, this is absolutely asinine even for you.

Except we don’t. We see glass breaking, and not even arena destroyed. Hence why I can also say only the space in the immediate area was destroyed.

...






For one, if this is supposed to be the scope of your arguments, don't even bother trying to pretend this is you supposed to be fair...
For two:

Already said I’m not going to harp any further on this.

Seemingly used in that context doesn't make it a guarantee and it's the character guessing that's the case.

Made clear that was very much the case. You got loads of characters with magic that crush, tear, and cut space. To say Index can’t when she’s got all collective magic and spells in her head is being silly.

Because Opera Omnia primarily includes not only the entire Final Fantasy Multiverse but includes Dissidia's Multiverse(As stated in the first Dissidia with World B being the lynchpin that creates countless World A's and later in Dissidia 2 that Feral Chaos is explicitly a What-If Chaos from a different timeline that went mad and invaded the game's timeline.) which has Multiversal beings and concepts the characters faces and defeat.
Basically the already massive scope of Final Fantasy gets even more absurd and actually gels completely with FFXI and FFXIV with Dissida

Cool and what does this have to do with Cloud and Sephiroth?

 

[Uoruk]

Except we don’t. We see glass breaking,

WHERE'S THE GLASS FROM ASTARO

 

[Astaro]

WHERE'S THE GLASS FROM ASTARO

The space in the area. What I’ve been asking is proof everything was destroyed

 

[Uoruk]

The space in the area. What I’ve been asking is proof everything was destroyed

If it was the space in the arena there wouldn't be anymore arena

 

[Astaro]

If it was the space in the arena there wouldn't be anymore arena

The fact that the arena was intact at all is why I have trouble buying this. Seems to be only a localized area just above the arena got destroyed

 

[Uoruk]

The fact that the arena was intact at all is why I have trouble buying this. Seems to be only a localized area just above the arena got destroyed

If you're in another dimension you aren't physical occupying the same space. So if you destroy said dimension why would it affect the one you weren't in?


Mind you, they've had the arena be destroyed in plenty of fights and for Ultimates they usually change or add aspects to the fight both mechanically and visually yet despite some lighting and animations they chose to represent it in the exact same way in the Ultimate version of said fight a full 7 years and change after the original




6:01


You even see the background change indicating they aren't in the same exact spot

And this is before he even fuses with Nidhogg

 

[Astaro]

If you're in another dimension you aren't physical occupying the same space. So if you destroy said dimension why would it affect the one you weren't in?


Mind you, they've had the arena be destroyed in plenty of fights and for Ultimates they usually change or add aspects to the fight both mechanically and visually yet despite some lighting and animations they chose to represent it in the exact same way in the Ultimate version of said fight a full 7 years and change after the original




6:01


You even see the background change indicating they aren't in the same exact spot

And this is before he even fuses with Nidhogg

Alright, looks good enough. If just for the amount of vids put into this

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Except we don’t. We see glass breaking, and not even arena destroyed. Hence why I can also say only the space in the immediate area was destroyed.

Because the dimension is being shattered...
Again, this is taken from To Aru itself:

As the lance was fired with tremendous force, the “happy world” was smashed to pieces as if space itself was being torn apart. As a fragment of the world approached with the force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.

You can't say what's in FFVII and FFXIV isn't clear when the destruction of Phases is also likened to be like glass...

Already said I’m not going to harp any further on this.

So not even gonna bother keeping your point intact?

Made clear that was very much the case. You got loads of characters with magic that crush, tear, and cut space. To say Index can’t when she’s got all collective magic and spells in her head is being silly.

Yes, by the walls of the phases being likened to glass... which you are unironically using to pretend that KOTR is somehow BFR tech that does damage because you can get hurt by "the tears in space" despite there being zero proof in that.
Again unironically, Othinus' feat hits that marker far more than KoTR ever did.

Cool and what does this have to do with Cloud and Sephiroth?

Because FF7 Rebirth now made Planet Earth and the Lifestream as broken and as stupid as Nasuverse Earth, including being able to delete entire timelines and has control of the Solar System.
Meaning that as far as we take it, Sephiroth and Cloud from the Remake Trilogy would actually be pretty freaking close to the XI-XIV-Dissidia levels than anything else.

 

[Uoruk]

0:40

This is Neo Exdeath returning to our dimension/universe. It doesn't destroy everything the way Thordan does