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Cloud Strife, Zack Fair, and Sephiroth enter ToAru

Sorry, I've been a little busy today.


Also the alternative scenario, worst chunk of plot they can keep Touma out of a hospital bed during? Because I'm vaguely aware he ends up in one constantly
Of course, he always ends up, even when he wins he ends up in the hospital xD

But to answer more seriously, they would have served against Coronzon or against the first fight against Crowley when they invaded the Windowless Building.

Against Othinus they might have been able to prevent her from getting Gugnir and thus be able to use all her power effectively, but after that I don't think they would have made much difference.
 
Sorry, I've been a little busy today.



Of course, he always ends up, even when he wins he ends up in the hospital xD

But to answer more seriously, they would have served against Coronzon or against the first fight against Crowley when they invaded the Windowless Building.

Against Othinus they might have been able to prevent her from getting Gugnir and thus be able to use all her power effectively, but after that I don't think they would have made much difference.
Yeah, any scuffle he gets into before Othinus w/Gungnir (and excluding Fiamma) they'd have a pretty comfortable time preventing him from ending up in a hospital bed

after that it gets rough
 
Actually?

Treating the galaxies as being the size of the Milky Way with an angular size of 0.02 degrees (the limit of human visual acuity to perceive size of objects or gaps between at a distance)?

That galaxy would be about 286,480,000 light years away. Treating that as the edge of the dimension, where the Knights are coming from because thank you ultimania description? Over 2 seconds or so, that’s about 4.52 * 10^15 C
Did a calc for Othinus crossbow in that Respect thread that got in the octillion times speed of light


Check post #7

From what’s posted so far, the FF group handedly clears up until they get to Othinus upwards who as usual, carry the verse

With the Remake Buffs on top of that(As ChaosTheory stated, The Lifestream is now effectively Nasuverse Earth tier with god knows how many timelines in it that houses a good chunk of space at that)? Oh DEFINITELY.
Don't even try to include Opera Omnia or it becomes a thrashing.
How does it become a trashing?
 
Did a calc for Othinus crossbow in that Respect thread that got in the octillion times speed of light


Check post #7
What's the time frame from? The first one I saw from what @NeloAngelo posted used his heart still beating as a time frame. What's your's derived from? Are you assuming it finished traveling to the end of the universe before his body had time to fall rather than that narrative continuing to occur after his remains became inert?

Not really that big a deal, just make it a bit clearer to follow.

Is this crossbow attack something anyone reacts to? Sounds like it uses an intense amount of space to accelerate over, do we get indication for when they first begin to move relative to it at all?
 
What's the time frame from? The first one I saw from what @NeloAngelo posted used his heart still beating as a time frame. What's your's derived from? Are you assuming it finished traveling to the end of the universe before his body had time to fall rather than that narrative continuing to occur after his remains became inert?
More or less the same time frame, probably even less. Before what’s left of Touma even has a chance to fly through the air from the recoil of being hit, the bolt that pierced him already reached the farthest ends of that void their in
Not really that big a deal, just make it a bit clearer to follow.

Is this crossbow attack something anyone reacts to? Sounds like it uses an intense amount of space to accelerate over, do we get indication for when they first begin to move relative to it at all?
Touma dodged 9 out of 10 of them from a distance described as close between him and Othinus

No space compression involved and the bolded part says their fired out at full acceleration from the start

What exactly could this be compared to?

Perhaps a super-long railgun that targeted someone on the planet's surface after eternal acceleration using straight guiderails stretching from one end of the universe to the other.

Perhaps a singularity weapon that created destruction unexplainable with Newtonian physics by directly messing with the smallest particles dealing with mass and motion such as the bosons and the Higgs particle.

In all likelihood, expressing it with words was meaningless.

Even if one gathered everything that could be expressed with words, it was unlikely one could shoot down that crossbow.

It merely hit.

"…!!!???"

Kamijou Touma leaped to the side with all his strength.

…The first shot fell vertically from the heavens.

It held the destructive power needed to easily wipe out a planet or two, but it was beyond the point of creating anything like a crater. This was no different from a rifle bullet fired with the initial velocity of a sniper rifle piercing glass without breaking it. The arrow had been fired with such great speed that it pierced the pitch black ground without waiting for the impact to propagate.

Even so, Kamijou ran.

His distance to Othinus was close yet far. It felt like an infinite wall.

…The second shot seemed to skim the ground as it was fired behind him and diagonally to the left.

Kamijou crouched down and the arrow passed over his head and swept across the world. Its trajectory was angled downward slightly and it created a giant valley in that black-dyed world.
 
More or less the same time frame, probably even less. Before what’s left of Touma even has a chance to fly through the air from the recoil of being hit, the bolt that pierced him already reached the farthest ends of that void their in
How far did what is left of Touma get to fly? What was the launch angle? 0 degrees would be free fall, but even a slight degree above that is a confound compounded by the distance his remains may or may not flying.

Probably doesn't effect too much, but it does effect it some.
Touma dodged 9 out of 10 of them from a distance described as close between him and Othinus
How close? Close can be considered relative, be it face to face, a couple meters, or even a football field.
No space compression involved and the bolded part says their fired out at full acceleration from the start
Hadn't paid notice to the "after," had been more focused on the scale of the accelerator given they are presumably not at the edge of the universe?
 
How far did what is left of Touma get to fly? What was the launch angle? 0 degrees would be free fall, but even a slight degree above that is a confound compounded by the distance his remains may or may not flying.
Didn’t fly much since Othinus caught him almost immediately

The final arrow broke through the girl’s entire body and assaulted Kamijou from the blind spot directly in front of him.

“…Ah.”

Time stopped.

He was too slow to react.

By the time he heard a dull sound, the final arrow had already been absorbed into his chest and accurately targeted his heart.

This was nothing as kind as piercing or breaking him.

In the instant of impact, Kamijou Touma’s body was smashed to pieces from the chest down. As his heart continued to writhe in midair, the tip of the arrow caught it and blasted it to the farthest reaches of that world.

All that remained in that place were the boy’s arms, shoulders, and head.

At that level, this could only be called his remains.

Kamijou’s “body” spun at least twice through the air and Othinus caught it in one hand.

The world in question is the black world made from destroying at minimum all the billions of Phases involved in this volume.

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

How close? Close can be considered relative, be it face to face, a couple meters, or even a football field.
Only exact distance estimates I get is when Touma reacts to the third and fourth shot erupting from the ground just a few meters away from him and choosing not to dodge them since he reasons their bluffs to the real fifth one heading straight for him at the same time.

…The third and fourth shots burst up through the ground.

They stabbed up a few meters away on either side of Kamijou. It was a trap. If he rashly moved even a step to evade, he would be smashed to pieces.

The more unnecessary actions he took, the farther he would be from victory.

He sharpened his senses like a needle and pictured himself stretching forward and piercing Othinus with that needle.

…The fifth shot came from directly in front of him.

His movements to the left and right were already sealed off and now Othinus had thrown a straight pitch. For the first time, Kamijou swung his right hand. But not in a straight impact meant to destroy. He scooped his hand up from below, traced his hand along the surface of the arrow, and diverted its trajectory upwards.

Hadn't paid notice to the "after," had been more focused on the scale of the accelerator given they are presumably not at the edge of the universe?
For the calc I did, I went with assuming the fight was at the very center to make things simple.
 
Didn’t fly much since Othinus caught him almost immediately
we actually don't know how high, just that his remains spun twice

Doesn't change the results much, like I said, but if his remains were sent into the air at all, it does add time. The number of flips doesn't correlate with height either, could have had slow rotational momentum while having a modestly higher linear vertical lift
The world in question is the black world made from destroying at minimum all the billions of Phases involved in this volume.
How does the void here work by the way? Had previously had the vague impression these phases were sitting over top previous phases (guess I was thinking kind of like Reality Marbles or the dimensions that summons occupy in FFVII). Do they, or are they shifted a bit in space to increase the volume occupied? Are they spread far apart? Or is it like when someone wears multiple shirts and the volume of space they occupy gradually increases?
Only exact distance estimates I get is when Touma reacts to the third and fourth shot erupting from the ground just a few meters away from him and choosing not to dodge them since he reasons their bluffs to the real fifth one heading straight for him at the same time.
Gotcha
For the calc I did, I went with assuming the fight was at the very center to make things simple.
Meant more I had assumed the acceleration occurred continuously across the universe based on how it was described? Like it was still in the process of accelerating when it reached Touma from the opposite end of everything and continued to do so after it punted his heart to the other side.

Or was I not reading that correctly, like the description was not literal?
 
we actually don't know how high, just that his remains spun twice

Doesn't change the results much, like I said, but if his remains were sent into the air at all, it does add time. The number of flips doesn't correlate with height either, could have had slow rotational momentum while having a modestly higher linear vertical lift
I’d just look at the order of events written. The arrow already caught Touma’s heart and had already blasted it to the farthest reaches of that black world before Touma’s upper body even had the time to flying back at all.
How does the void here work by the way? Had previously had the vague impression these phases were sitting over top previous phases (guess I was thinking kind of like Reality Marbles or the dimensions that summons occupy in FFVII). Do they, or are they shifted a bit in space to increase the volume occupied? Are they spread far apart? Or is it like when someone wears multiple shirts and the volume of space they occupy gradually increases?
Think Textures of the Planet in Nasuverse on a Universal scale. And I use hundreds of billions described there as the lowest possible number for the size of the black world made from destroying all but one Phase (the hidden phase the Magic Gods are in)

Based on several scans of Curtana Original / Second, a dimension severing sword that cuts through all Phases simultaneously, there are actually as many Phases as what can be described in whole numbers. Infinite in other words because whole numbers goes on forever.

Assuming it could hit, that extraordinary power could penetrate the barrier between worlds and kill a being lurking in a different phase… for example, Holy Guardian Angel Aiwass who stayed in the layer of physical laws at the very bottom.

A chill ran down his spine. After all, his opponent attacked with a strike that could slice through all dimensions that could be represented with whole numbers. If he misread the situation, he wouldn't just lose his right arm. His entire body would be sliced in two.


Gotcha

Meant more I had assumed the acceleration occurred continuously across the universe based on how it was described? Like it was still in the process of accelerating when it reached Touma from the opposite end of everything and continued to do so after it punted his heart to the other side.
No. The shots fire at full speed from the start.

Heck, one of them ignored crossing distance altogether and just tried to telefrag Touma right on the spot.

…The eighth shot overcame the restrictions of the third dimension.

Kamijou felt a static electricity-like spark on his spine and immediately swung his head to the side as hard as he could. An instant later, space suddenly split open and an arrow assaulted the world.

^ Touma’s reflexes got to such levels of bullshit in this fight that he could react to literal teleportation.

:hestonpls
 
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The fastest calc in FF comes from Thordan's Ultimate End.

It would definitely need to be revised though. The distance we used was the observable universe, yet we definitely know the dimension of the feat taking place is a mirror of the Great Expanse.

e.g. the assumption was that Ultimate End destroyed the dimension in 40 frames which translated into a bit more than a second or something. I'd have to check again to be sure but I don't think anyone outside of XIV would scale to it even accounting for Dissidia.

Looking at Relativity it is probably not even the best speed feat in FF, just the best one with a calcable result.
 


I see nothing about the dimension being destroyed here, especially when the platform their still on is perfectly intact

Looks more like a BFR to me

And besides that, unlike the Othinus crossbow feat, no one reacted to this 20 second long attack
 
It's probably best to just post the entire passage rather than cutting it up, its harder to understand that way

There aren't any visuals for it currently so all we have to go off is the narration

Othinus, or the head Norse god which became the origin of the name, had left behind many different legends as the center of the system making up a mythology. That god did not necessarily use only one weapon and there were records of that god defeating various different enemies with various different blades.

And there was one weapon specifically associated with Othinus rather than Odin.

It was simply known as a crossbow.

No one knew its official name, much less how it was produced. That phantom weapon had left only a description of its frightening destructive power in the texts. That symbol of the head god was too obscure to be called a legend and had mostly been covered by the mists of time.

It was said that crossbow could simultaneously hold ten arrows in a fan shape.

It was said firing that crossbow could exterminate any army.

The entire world could be heard creaking.

Kamijou looked up slightly.

He saw the disturbing symbol bursting from Othinus’s back and providing the color of light to the entire black world it covered. He heard the creaking sound of it gathering tremendous power.

In the end, the world was her crossbow.

As soon as Kamijou Touma realized that, ten pieces of destruction rained down from the heavenly dome above.

Part 8[edit]​

What exactly could this be compared to?

Perhaps a super-long railgun that targeted someone on the planet’s surface after eternal acceleration using straight guiderails stretching from one end of the universe to the other.

Perhaps a singularity weapon that created destruction unexplainable with Newtonian physics by directly messing with the smallest particles dealing with mass and motion such as the bosons and the Higgs particle.

In all likelihood, expressing it with words was meaningless.

Even if one gathered everything that could be expressed with words, it was unlikely one could shoot down that crossbow.

It merely hit.

“…!!!???”

Kamijou Touma leaped to the side with all his strength.

…The first shot fell vertically from the heavens.

It held the destructive power needed to easily wipe out a planet or two, but it was beyond the point of creating anything like a crater. This was no different from a rifle bullet fired with the initial velocity of a sniper rifle piercing glass without breaking it. The arrow had been fired with such great speed that it pierced the pitch black ground without waiting for the impact to propagate.

Even so, Kamijou ran.

His distance to Othinus was close yet far. It felt like an infinite wall.

…The second shot seemed to skim the ground as it was fired behind him and diagonally to the left.

Kamijou crouched down and the arrow passed over his head and swept across the world. Its trajectory was angled downward slightly and it created a giant valley in that black-dyed world.

Othinus did not move from her spot.

She and Kamijou had to be the same. They were both pouring all their strength into defeating their opponent.

…The third and fourth shots burst up through the ground.

They stabbed up a few meters away on either side of Kamijou. It was a trap. If he rashly moved even a step to evade, he would be smashed to pieces.

The more unnecessary actions he took, the farther he would be from victory.

He sharpened his senses like a needle and pictured himself stretching forward and piercing Othinus with that needle.

…The fifth shot came from directly in front of him.

His movements to the left and right were already sealed off and now Othinus had thrown a straight pitch. For the first time, Kamijou swung his right hand. But not in a straight impact meant to destroy. He scooped his hand up from below, traced his hand along the surface of the arrow, and diverted its trajectory upwards.

He ran straight forward.

His fear and self-interest threatened to shake that simple action.

…The sixth and seventh shots scraped across Othinus’s shoulders.

The two arrows were fired from behind her and they collided in midair before reaching him. With a tremendous explosive noise, the two arrows’ trajectories changed complexly. The boy evaded one by ducking his upper body down and then jumped over the other with a great leap.

Devoting himself to evasion was meaningless.

His path threatened to waver, but he used the power of his will to desperately keep himself on course.

…The eighth shot overcame the restrictions of the third dimension.

Kamijou felt a static electricity-like spark on his spine and immediately swung his head to the side as hard as he could. An instant later, space suddenly split open and an arrow assaulted the world.

He focused on his trajectory.

The several meter path to Othinus appeared clearly in his head.

…The ninth shot ignored the concept of numbers.

The arrows that fell from above colored the night sky like fireworks and glittered like stars covering the heavens. Every single one of them was fatal, but Kamijou did not freeze up. No matter how torrentially they rained down, there was always a safe space left to step in.

He was going to reach her.

He glared at Othinus’s face and clenched his right fist tighter than before.

…And the tenth shot…

(I can reach her.)

Kamijou gritted his teeth.

He sharply moved right up to her.

(I’ll reach her no matter what!! It doesn’t matter where the final arrow comes from! I can punch her after evading it or punch her before she can fire the arrow. Either way, I’ll end this here!!)

“Othinus!!”

In the instant he shouted out, he was certain of his victory.

He stopped thinking about the tenth shot altogether. That was why he had reached the idea of ending this before she could fire it.

But his mistake was understandable.

The final shot approached from directly behind Magic God Othinus.

And she did not move a single step.

In other words, the arrow unhesitatingly pierced through Othinus.

The final arrow broke through the girl’s entire body and assaulted Kamijou from the blind spot directly in front of him.

“…Ah.”

Time stopped.

He was too slow to react.

By the time he heard a dull sound, the final arrow had already been absorbed into his chest and accurately targeted his heart.

This was nothing as kind as piercing or breaking him.

In the instant of impact, Kamijou Touma’s body was smashed to pieces from the chest down. As his heart continued to writhe in midair, the tip of the arrow caught it and blasted it to the farthest reaches of that world.

All that remained in that place were the boy’s arms, shoulders, and head.

At that level, this could only be called his remains.

Kamijou’s “body” spun at least twice through the air and Othinus caught it in one hand.

She had supposedly taken the exact same damage, but not so much as a single scratch remained on her smooth skin. The destruction had indeed occurred, but the wounds had immediately repaired themselves like watching the destruction of gelatin in reverse.

Othinus spoke with a cold light in her one eye.

“It is over.”

“…Dammit. Maybe so.”

Main points are is that, Touma has enough time to conceptualize the arrows and dodge them after there already have been fired, and there's also the fact that he manages to crouch and jump over two of the arrows despite there speed.

As for the size of the black world, @NeloAngelo's calc assumes its the size of the universe because of the narration


And I think its the best estimate, truthfully tho the black world could be much bigger if one believes the "hells" Othinus created were universe sized, since the black world could fit thousands to hundreds of billions of those phases


As for what the black world is we don't know other than this line from the epilogue of NT 10


Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.
 
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That epilogue line explains pretty well the Black World is as the result of destroying every possible Phase and leaving nothing behind.

Also confirmed that’s the case with this line.

In other words, the instant that lance left Othinus's hands, the world would be blown to pieces.

Time returned to normal.

Kamijou once more felt space spread out around him.

As the lance was fired with tremendous force, the "happy world" was smashed to pieces as if space itself was being torn apart. As a fragment of the world approached with the force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.

Everything was ripped up.

The black labyrinth, which had used up all of its possibilities, showed itself.
 
It's probably best to just post the entire passage rather than cutting it up, its harder to understand that way

There aren't any visuals for it currently so all we have to go off is the narration



Main points are is that, Touma has enough time to conceptualize the arrows and dodge them after there already have been fired, and there's also the fact that he manages to crouch and jump over two of the arrows despite there speed.

As for the size of the black world, @NeloAngelo's calc assumes its the size of the universe because of the narration


And I think its the best estimate, truthfully tho the black world could be much bigger if one believes the "hells" Othinus created were universe sized, since the black world could fit thousands to hundreds of billions of those phases


As for what the black world is we don't know other than this line from the epilogue of NT 10

Pretty sure it's the "default" phase Othinus created that things return to whenever she destroys every phase that she created.

Nothing really complicated there.
 
That epilogue line explains pretty well the Black World is as the result of destroying every possible Phase and leaving nothing behind.

Also confirmed that’s the case with this line.
Not really the point.

Pretty sure it's the "default" phase Othinus created that things return to whenever she destroys every phase that she created.

Nothing really complicated there.
?
Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

Why would Othinus be wrong about apparently, a world she herself created by your logic then? This line doesn't make sense unless Othinus didn't actually create the black world.
 


I see nothing about the dimension being destroyed here, especially when the platform their still on is perfectly intact

Looks more like a BFR to me

And besides that, unlike the Othinus crossbow feat, no one reacted to this 20 second long attack

Seriously, again?

Yeah mate the dimension visibly shattering, the sword strike, the WoL TAKING DAMAGE, Thordan's exhaustion and the EXPANDING WAVE clearly indicate that it was BFR and not actually being destroyed. You can easily calculate the speed from the wave of Ultimate's End via counting the frames. Super straight forward.

Calc looked fine to people posting on both forums and similar calcs like Shulks Monado wave which were calc'd nigh identical were also accepted in the past.

I definitely think you are onto something big here and Ultimate's End is in fact not an attack.
 
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Seriously, again?

Yeah mate the dimension visibly shattering, the sword strike, the WoL TAKING DAMAGE, Thordan's exhaustion and the EXPANDING WAVE clearly indicate that it was BFR and not actually being destroyed. You can easily calculate the speed from the wave of Ultimate's End via counting the frames. Super straight forward.
The shattering is in every animation I’ve seen of this with the last knight dropping down the sword.

I can just as easily assume it’s a spatial break into another location over an entire dimension beint destroyed yet somehow the arena is perfectly fine being at ground zero
Calc looked fine to people posting on both forums and similar calcs like Shulks Monado wave which were calc'd nigh identical were also accepted in the past.

I definitely think you are onto something big here and Ultimate's End is in fact not an attack.
And people here complain about Toaru being vague

At least what I argue is stuff actually confirmed

:hestonpls
 
Yes mate, Thordan BFR'd the WoL from Azys Lla to the Knights of the Heavensward dimension and then back to Azys Lla.

You got us.
 
And you wonder why Flowering Knight stated what they did and why I ultimately just agree with it...
I said this before and will say it again.

'Some people' would genuinely argue for Fate Calibration to be fanfic because you 'only' see what it does without a 50 page long terribly written anime explanation attached to it.
 
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