I was planning on talking about this sooner or later, but just bringing up in the Convo... wouldn't really be what I wanted to do with this and to be frank, this needs to be in the Meta-Battledome Discussion(And I haven't made a thread in months).
Something that I have found... disturbing in many other VS. debating sites is how frequently people ignore the very concept of VS. Debating to basically put their own nonsensical takes out there and being taken seriously and it even happens here from time to time, much to our chagrin.
So I would like to actually toss around a few examples that I have seen and I invite others to bring in some that they have seen as well. This isn't going to be like the Circus Thread where we make fun of bad posts or terrible topics or users being fools, these are talking about Misconceptions that have exploded as of late due to the latest people who appeared in this hobby and went to the worst with them:
1. Primarily focusing on AoE and DC
We have all seen this before in the past and while it's connected to a major point that I will bring up later, this usually follows it alot. An author/writer/designers/etc. will create a scene that basically doesn't follow what happens(Video Games constantly follow this) and thus, people will disregard feats because they aren't basically acting like they should in a "realistic" context.
The big issue with going with this route is that most users have legit no idea that this is extra workload for Video Games, for Anime and otherwise. The key example of this is honestly Role Playing Games as a whole, you know them, we have ALL seen them before:
Attacks that rend the very fabric of Reality, destroy Planets, End Universes, creates Galaxies... and it's like nothing happens:
We have seen this constantly used over and over again to primarily dismiss feats because "It's just gameplay" or in the case of anime "It's an outlier" when the reason is more simple in 2 fashions:
1A) The Writers/Creators/Designers aren't VS. Debaters.
Yeah that sounds like a copout but it genuinely isn't. Writers/Creators aren't thinking of "Why doesn't this Anti-Matter spell completely destroy the Universe" or "Why can these characters can basically violate the Laws of Physics by existing", they are usually doing these because that's what they want to do. This explanation will go into another part but to be frank, this doesn't mean the abilities are "outliers", it's just the creators do not want to deal with the obvious elephant in the room because fiction requires you to obviously strain yourself from Reality in it's stories.
The part for video games is another story as well... and that is simple game engine limitations. Go to any Developer, anyone versed in Game Engines and tell them you want to have a Game Engine that shows environmental damage on a major scale and to make it PERMANENT and come back to me when they basically laugh in your face and walk off. I have seen this constantly used for series like The Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy and so on despite these very series actually do talk about what we see on the screen but they are discounted because "We don't get nowhere near the scale it should be" as if you can easily have heroes have a spell that can just nuke half of the Planet and have it somehow still stick in gameplay.
The 2nd Reason comes from a common fallacy:
If Heroes can just blow away Planets/Star Systems/Reality/The Universe, why are they struggling on the villains or vice versa? I would have called it by it's own name but I won't because we have constantly seen this happen(Sephiroth's entire goal is constantly used as this when it comes to Supernova but people tend to miss WHY that's the case). This even happens in plenty of anime like Dragonball Z, Saint Seiya and so on where characters can destroy Planets but then suddenly not(Especially if it's given onus) and it's used to constantly dismiss feats because "Shit isn't exploding all the time" when the answers... are usually stated in the series itself.
I want to use Final Fantasy 7 as a backbone of this argument because it's the series that is consistently used in VS. Topics and thus is the one the fallacy is consistently used against:
Sephiroth here very clearly explains the origins of the Materia(That it is Condensed Mako in it's purest form) and how characters can cast Magic and he virtually explains it as thus(paraphrasing here):
Materia works as a conduit as the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients to be able to freely use the powers of the Land and Planet to use Magic.
Now of course, if you go further into the game at Cosmo Canyon, Bugenhagen actually tells you what is powering the Planet:
Again paraphrasing, he basically explains that when people die, their body decomposes but also so do their souls, forming those who have also died and becoming a swell, becoming The Lifestream, the path of energy of souls that roam the Planet. There is of course, special mention that I will bring up here to further point out a major consistency people miss(And why Sephiroth didn't want to destroy the Planet but cause it a major wound):
3:22
"Spirit Energy(The Lifestream) is what makes all things possible, Humans, Animals and Birds. Spirit Energy isn't just limited to Living things, it's also what makes Planets to be Planets"
Bugenhagen then demonstrates what happens when you absorb the Spirit Energy from the Planet(or it disappears) and the Planet ultimately rips itself apart and ceases to live. This is also brought up in Dirge of Cerebus as The Omega Weapon's main purpose to gather the Lifestream of the entire Planet and leave it, causing the Planet to die but to find a new Planet to add it back into.
Both of these are absolutely important because it becomes obvious that Mako and the Lifestream are one in the same(This is why AVALANCHE was formed in destroying the Reactors) and also why Materia exists(And why the Huge Materia being destroyed is a HUGE deal and why the characters refuse to use Materia in Advent Children).
This is primarily why Sephiroth being dunked into The Lifestream for years prior to Final Fantasy 7 is able to do most of the insanity he's capable of because he was primarily gaining even more Knowledge from the Lifestream to the point of virtually skipping the need of Materia and can just cast Magic freely(And why he wants the Lifestream's Energy in the first place, it's even stronger than the very Planet it's on considering what Bugenhagen stated that it allows Planets to be Planets)
Crisis Core also brings about the main deal when it comes to Summons:
One second Zack is facing Genesis and Genesis has a Summoning Materia, and the next, he's in a completely different and volatile area and fighting Bahamut in it, completely transported into it's Dimension to fight it.
I will tackle other Misconceptions in the future but if someone wants to go and add their own misconception, you are free to do so. I'm primarily doing this to blow off some steam and hopefully educate some of the people who come here over the various and constant misconceptions I see when it comes to VS. debates. I'm not perfect and I do ask if I have made errors or if there is better info I can use, just tell me and I promise I won't cry like a ninny. So until the next one.
EDIT: Thanks to @Papa Nier , I actually found the site I was looking for to further clarify about FF7 Summons:
thelifestream.net Summoned Beasts
Something that I have found... disturbing in many other VS. debating sites is how frequently people ignore the very concept of VS. Debating to basically put their own nonsensical takes out there and being taken seriously and it even happens here from time to time, much to our chagrin.
So I would like to actually toss around a few examples that I have seen and I invite others to bring in some that they have seen as well. This isn't going to be like the Circus Thread where we make fun of bad posts or terrible topics or users being fools, these are talking about Misconceptions that have exploded as of late due to the latest people who appeared in this hobby and went to the worst with them:
1. Primarily focusing on AoE and DC
We have all seen this before in the past and while it's connected to a major point that I will bring up later, this usually follows it alot. An author/writer/designers/etc. will create a scene that basically doesn't follow what happens(Video Games constantly follow this) and thus, people will disregard feats because they aren't basically acting like they should in a "realistic" context.
The big issue with going with this route is that most users have legit no idea that this is extra workload for Video Games, for Anime and otherwise. The key example of this is honestly Role Playing Games as a whole, you know them, we have ALL seen them before:
Attacks that rend the very fabric of Reality, destroy Planets, End Universes, creates Galaxies... and it's like nothing happens:
We have seen this constantly used over and over again to primarily dismiss feats because "It's just gameplay" or in the case of anime "It's an outlier" when the reason is more simple in 2 fashions:
1A) The Writers/Creators/Designers aren't VS. Debaters.
Yeah that sounds like a copout but it genuinely isn't. Writers/Creators aren't thinking of "Why doesn't this Anti-Matter spell completely destroy the Universe" or "Why can these characters can basically violate the Laws of Physics by existing", they are usually doing these because that's what they want to do. This explanation will go into another part but to be frank, this doesn't mean the abilities are "outliers", it's just the creators do not want to deal with the obvious elephant in the room because fiction requires you to obviously strain yourself from Reality in it's stories.
The part for video games is another story as well... and that is simple game engine limitations. Go to any Developer, anyone versed in Game Engines and tell them you want to have a Game Engine that shows environmental damage on a major scale and to make it PERMANENT and come back to me when they basically laugh in your face and walk off. I have seen this constantly used for series like The Elder Scrolls, Final Fantasy and so on despite these very series actually do talk about what we see on the screen but they are discounted because "We don't get nowhere near the scale it should be" as if you can easily have heroes have a spell that can just nuke half of the Planet and have it somehow still stick in gameplay.
The 2nd Reason comes from a common fallacy:
If Heroes can just blow away Planets/Star Systems/Reality/The Universe, why are they struggling on the villains or vice versa? I would have called it by it's own name but I won't because we have constantly seen this happen(Sephiroth's entire goal is constantly used as this when it comes to Supernova but people tend to miss WHY that's the case). This even happens in plenty of anime like Dragonball Z, Saint Seiya and so on where characters can destroy Planets but then suddenly not(Especially if it's given onus) and it's used to constantly dismiss feats because "Shit isn't exploding all the time" when the answers... are usually stated in the series itself.
I want to use Final Fantasy 7 as a backbone of this argument because it's the series that is consistently used in VS. Topics and thus is the one the fallacy is consistently used against:
Sephiroth here very clearly explains the origins of the Materia(That it is Condensed Mako in it's purest form) and how characters can cast Magic and he virtually explains it as thus(paraphrasing here):
Materia works as a conduit as the knowledge and wisdom of the Ancients to be able to freely use the powers of the Land and Planet to use Magic.
Now of course, if you go further into the game at Cosmo Canyon, Bugenhagen actually tells you what is powering the Planet:
Again paraphrasing, he basically explains that when people die, their body decomposes but also so do their souls, forming those who have also died and becoming a swell, becoming The Lifestream, the path of energy of souls that roam the Planet. There is of course, special mention that I will bring up here to further point out a major consistency people miss(And why Sephiroth didn't want to destroy the Planet but cause it a major wound):
3:22
"Spirit Energy(The Lifestream) is what makes all things possible, Humans, Animals and Birds. Spirit Energy isn't just limited to Living things, it's also what makes Planets to be Planets"
Bugenhagen then demonstrates what happens when you absorb the Spirit Energy from the Planet(or it disappears) and the Planet ultimately rips itself apart and ceases to live. This is also brought up in Dirge of Cerebus as The Omega Weapon's main purpose to gather the Lifestream of the entire Planet and leave it, causing the Planet to die but to find a new Planet to add it back into.
Both of these are absolutely important because it becomes obvious that Mako and the Lifestream are one in the same(This is why AVALANCHE was formed in destroying the Reactors) and also why Materia exists(And why the Huge Materia being destroyed is a HUGE deal and why the characters refuse to use Materia in Advent Children).
This is primarily why Sephiroth being dunked into The Lifestream for years prior to Final Fantasy 7 is able to do most of the insanity he's capable of because he was primarily gaining even more Knowledge from the Lifestream to the point of virtually skipping the need of Materia and can just cast Magic freely(And why he wants the Lifestream's Energy in the first place, it's even stronger than the very Planet it's on considering what Bugenhagen stated that it allows Planets to be Planets)
Crisis Core also brings about the main deal when it comes to Summons:
One second Zack is facing Genesis and Genesis has a Summoning Materia, and the next, he's in a completely different and volatile area and fighting Bahamut in it, completely transported into it's Dimension to fight it.
I will tackle other Misconceptions in the future but if someone wants to go and add their own misconception, you are free to do so. I'm primarily doing this to blow off some steam and hopefully educate some of the people who come here over the various and constant misconceptions I see when it comes to VS. debates. I'm not perfect and I do ask if I have made errors or if there is better info I can use, just tell me and I promise I won't cry like a ninny. So until the next one.
EDIT: Thanks to @Papa Nier , I actually found the site I was looking for to further clarify about FF7 Summons:
Crisis Core Complete Guide Keyword Collection - The Lifestream
Today we feature translations from the Crisis Core Complete Guide, specifically, from the Keyword Collection which explains and defines certain plot points and terms from the Compilation of Final Fantasy VII. Enjoy! Angeal Copy Subjects of the copy technique where Angeal's cells were used...
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