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Death Battle Discussion

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The more I watch the episode, the more I realize there's a clear bias towards Gurren Lagann, but it was hard for me to see it, because I was blinded by hype and my own bit of bias towards Simon

They gave everything to Simon, while hitting Kyle with a nerf hammer for every little thing they could get even when it didn't make sense. E.g. 24-hours limit battery, or no control over the LE

However, once the hype over Simon's victory wears off, that argument about his alternate self turning fiction into reality being a "pretty similar level of reality to the Life Equation" sounds wrong

Not the metion the return of the NFL as Eric puts it here
Regular-Nothing Eric said:
their reasoning for Simon winning was kinda clearly based on a no-limits fallacy like "the stronger your opponent is, the more you'll adapt and absorb their power back against them"
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@CrossTheHorizon was right, this felt like they were trying to find ways for Simon to win rather than trying to fairly evaluate both characters...

However, I still like the episode, it's one of my new favorites. It feels somewhat similar to Billcord, an outstanding episode with nice writing, amazing battle animation, great musical score... but also a botched verdict

Claudio Swiss said:
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That looks so cool!

That is one the things I like about this episode, the Green Lantern Simon/GL fanarts
 
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Warlordgab said:
The more I watch the episode, the more I realize there's a clear bias towards Gurren Lagann, but it was hard for me to see it, because I was blinded by hype and my own bit of bias towards Simon

They gave everything to Simon, while hitting Kyle with a nerf hammer for every little thing they could get even when it didn't make sense. E.g. 24-hours limit battery, or no control over the LE

However, once the hype over Simon's victory wears off, that argument about his alternate self turning fiction into reality being a "pretty similar level of reality to the Life Equation" sounds wrong

Not the metion the return of the NFL as Eric puts it here

@CrossTheHorizon was right, this felt like they were trying to find ways for Simon to win rather than trying to fairly evaluate both characters...

However, I still like the episode, it's one of my new favorites. It feels somewhat similar to Billcord, an outstanding episode with nice writing, amazing battle animation, great musical score... but also a botched verdict


That looks so cool!

That is one the things I like about this episode, the Green Lantern Simon/GL fanarts
Click to expand...
Yeah I get the feeling that this isn't exactly the first time a Death Battle victory in one side's favor was predicated entirely on what can pretty much be considered borderline NLF's in their post-fight analysis breakdown.

Remind me again, when was the last time something like this happened?

Agreed with the bolded.
 
Regular-Nothing Eric said:
So anyways after finishing the Simon vs Kyle Death Battle episode last night, I thought the episode was pretty damn interesting as much as the MU itself and most of the battle animation was kinda cool and epic. NGL, Kyle summoning a giant construct of Superman with a sword and shield went hard. Even if I still disagreed with the outcome, seeing as despite giving both combatants their best assets and scaling, their reasoning for Simon winning was kinda clearly based on a no-limits fallacy like "the stronger your opponent is, the more you'll adapt and absorb their power back against them".

However my only mild disappointment here that remains is that the outcome of the fight itself won't be causing some actual goddamn salt from someone who's still a fan of his pet series stalking this board to which I will not call out by name (for now).

What a missed opportunity for seeing such potentially hilarious ugly outbursts.

Oh well I guess.
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i feel no limits fallacy is limitless flawed (and somehow, this is a fallacy)because it specifically only works when something is truly unknown the limits off...but when something has really NO LIMITS WHATSOEVER, it still somehow applies?
no limits fallacy works on itself already, because it is known what limits are for this to apply, so it can tecnically apply to EVERYTHING that apparently has no limits.
expect that is not very specific, the only example there is, are esoteric examples that are very clearly specific (and also, limited)
 
Regular-Nothing Eric said:
Yeah I get the feeling that this isn't exactly the first time a Death Battle victory in one side's favor was predicated entirely on what can pretty much be considered borderline NLF's in their post-fight analysis breakdown.

Remind me again, when was the last time something like this happened?

Agreed with the bolded.
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Im sure they done it since then but the one I keep coming back to is Tifa vs Yang

alexander082006 said:
i feel no limits fallacy is limitless flawed (and somehow, this is a fallacy)because it specifically only works when something is truly unknown the limits off...but when something has really NO LIMITS WHATSOEVER, it still somehow applies?
no limits fallacy works on itself already, because it is known what limits are for this to apply, so it can tecnically apply to EVERYTHING that apparently has no limits.
expect that is not very specific, the only example there is, are esoteric examples that are very clearly specific (and also, limited)
Click to expand...

"No limits whatsoever" isnt a thing. Every fiction is inherently capped by their setting. It can be ludicrously high to the point of meaninglessness like Suggsverse but even that does technically have a stopping point.

In the context of this argument, Gurren Lagan "caps" at ambiguously higher than STTGL because we know Simon can get stronger over time but cant do another super jump on the scale of TTGL -> STTGL

For that matter we also know he has some kind of actual in-universe cap since if he kept going he would eventually trigger the Spiral Nemesis.
 
Honestly the verdict would be easier to swallow if they'd foregone dimensional scaling and just compared the Super Spiral Universe where TTGL fought the Anti-Spiral with the Godsphere. They're both realms of thought beyond the boundaries of conventional space time.

I'd still disagree with the verdict because Kyle with the LE is several tiers above that, each as fundamentally distinct from the lesser as the Godsphere is from the Orrey, but at least it's more reasonable than dimensional scaling against fucking DC.
 
Regular-Nothing Eric said:
Remind me again, when was the last time something like this happened?
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I think it was Ganandorf Vs. Bowser, as in 'Ganondorf can only be hurt by the Master Sword, so Bowser could never hurt him despite having stats hundreds of times better than Ganon'

Or maybe it was Wondy Vs. She-Ra, in which they treat Diana's sword slicing stuff at an atomic level as a "sword that can bypass durability"

But, after that, it seemed like they were trying to avoid NLFs. They even corrected previous examples, one notable case being Excalibur Vs. Raiden, in which Raiden's Murasama was no longer treated as the sword that could cut through everything

So, Simon Vs. Kyle seemingly took the show back to Season 3
 
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CrossTheHorizon said:
"No limits whatsoever" isnt a thing. Every fiction is inherently capped by their setting. It can be ludicrously high to the point of meaninglessness like Suggsverse but even that does technically have a stopping point.

In the context of this argument, Gurren Lagan "caps" at ambiguously higher than STTGL because we know Simon can get stronger over time but cant do another super jump on the scale of TTGL -> STTGL

For that matter we also know he has some kind of actual in-universe cap since if he kept going he would eventually trigger the Spiral Nemesis.
Click to expand...
isn't the Suggsverse literally supposed to be a joke verse and very stupid?

The problem with Spiral Nemesis is that it's fairly unknown. Yes, we know it exists, but the specifics of what causes it aren't very exact. We know it's definitely not because of the super amount of Spiral Power, because Simon has infinite Spiral Power (even before absorbing the Labyrinth and gaining an infinite amount of more Spiral Power), so it's not the amount of Spiral Power that causes Spiral Nemesis, it is more like using the spiral power out of control or doing it selfishly (like Simon reviving Nia).

the Spiral nemesis could also be a inevitable thing of evolution, just like how it is inevitable for the spiral beings to want to reach the skies, it is in their nature (basically is a natural phenomenan).

or could it be something like what happened to Simon do to being depressed (out of control).

it could also be inevitable but non fatal, considering that STTGL and Super Granzeboma had so much power that they cause the entire spiral universe to get absorbed into the clash (all the galaxies got absorbed like a big crunch).

It could perhaps be caused by the Anti-Spiral trying to prevent it from happening because it's limiting everyone to prevent the very nature of its race.

It could also be caused by a war of Spiral civilizations (like the Anti-Spiral one, but with other Spiral beings).
It could also simply be a theory considering that even though at the point they were, they basically had infinite power over infinite power (several infinities), the universe/multiverse didn't self-consume into a massive black hole either.

but we will probably never known about it (and yes i got this from the gurren lagann wiki).
But basically, even if the spiral nemesis were real, that's not a limit on the verse in power, it's simply something negative of the spiral power, but it's again, unknown what the actual conditions are for the spiral nemesis to occur.
 
alexander082006 said:
isn't the Suggsverse literally supposed to be a joke verse and very stupid?

The problem with Spiral Nemesis is that it's fairly unknown. Yes, we know it exists, but the specifics of what causes it aren't very exact. We know it's definitely not because of the super amount of Spiral Power, because Simon has infinite Spiral Power (even before absorbing the Labyrinth and gaining an infinite amount of more Spiral Power), so it's not the amount of Spiral Power that causes Spiral Nemesis, it is more like using the spiral power out of control or doing it selfishly (like Simon reviving Nia).

the Spiral nemesis could also be a inevitable thing of evolution, just like how it is inevitable for the spiral beings to want to reach the skies, it is in their nature (basically is a natural phenomenan).

or could it be something like what happened to Simon do to being depressed (out of control).

it could also be inevitable but non fatal, considering that STTGL and Super Granzeboma had so much power that they cause the entire spiral universe to get absorbed into the clash (all the galaxies got absorbed like a big crunch).

It could perhaps be caused by the Anti-Spiral trying to prevent it from happening because it's limiting everyone to prevent the very nature of its race.

It could also be caused by a war of Spiral civilizations (like the Anti-Spiral one, but with other Spiral beings).
It could also simply be a theory considering that even though at the point they were, they basically had infinite power over infinite power (several infinities), the universe/multiverse didn't self-consume into a massive black hole either.

but we will probably never known about it (and yes i got this from the gurren lagann wiki).
But basically, even if the spiral nemesis were real, that's not a limit on the verse in power, it's simply something negative of the spiral power, but it's again, unknown what the actual conditions are for the spiral nemesis to occur.
Click to expand...

The Spiral Nemesis is specifically said to be the end result of Spiral Energy growing too much. It hits a point where it's too much and drags everything into a singularity.

The Anti-Spiral says as much, and when someone calls him a liar, Lordgenome confirms he's telling the truth and points out that Simon instinctively understands the truth of what the Anti-Spiral is saying.
 
alexander082006 said:
isn't the Suggsverse literally supposed to be a joke verse and very stupid?.
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Nope...

While I wasn't there to witness the meltdown, I read a few things about it. The guy who wrote that verse did it unironically out of sheer saltiness over Getbackers not getting an universe level upgrade that was based on out-of-context and outright false information

Given he couldn't beat the OBD in a debate, he decided to write books to make avatars of his favorite characters as powerful as he wanted them to be

OBDers treat it as joke because the guy wrote what amounts to glorified fanfiction after getting too salty. Just saying it out loud is enough to make someone realize how absurd the situation is
 
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CrossTheHorizon said:
The Spiral Nemesis is specifically said to be the end result of Spiral Energy growing too much. It hits a point where it's too much and drags everything into a singularity.

The Anti-Spiral says as much, and when someone calls him a liar, Lordgenome confirms he's telling the truth and points out that Simon instinctively understands the truth of what the Anti-Spiral is saying.
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But that is not very specific, because again, we see that when they have infinite spiral power and are larger than the entire universe (or immeasurably gigantic) the spiral nemesis does not occur, that is not very specific.
 
Warlordgab said:
Nope...

While I wasn't there to witness the meltdown, I read a few things about it. The guy who wrote that verse did it unironically out of sheer saltiness over Getbackers not getting an universe level upgrade that was based on out-of-context and outright false information

Given he couldn't beat the OBD in a debate, he decided to write books to make avatars of his favorite characters as powerful as he wanted them to be

OBDers treat it as joke, because the guy wrote what amounts to glorified fanfiction for he got too salty. Just saying it out loud is enough to make someone realize how absurd the situation is
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that is at the same level of the author of ICTYWIKTS
 
alexander082006 said:
But that is not very specific, because again, we see that when they have infinite spiral power and are larger than the entire universe (or immeasurably gigantic) the spiral nemesis does not occur, that is not very specific.
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Well they obviously don't have "infinite Spiral Energy" since otherwise they can't keep growing from there lol. If that was infinite then they'd be hard-capped at the Super Spiral Universe because you can't go up from there

Also for what its worth, the final GDB clash supposedly sets off a lesser version of the Spiral Nemesis that collapses said Super Spiral Universe. That's what's happening when everything gets sucked into them during the clash.
 
alexander082006 said:
i feel no limits fallacy is limitless flawed (and somehow, this is a fallacy)because it specifically only works when something is truly unknown the limits off...but when something has really NO LIMITS WHATSOEVER, it still somehow applies?
no limits fallacy works on itself already, because it is known what limits are for this to apply, so it can tecnically apply to EVERYTHING that apparently has no limits.
expect that is not very specific, the only example there is, are esoteric examples that are very clearly specific (and also, limited)
Click to expand...
Eh I'm inclined to say that imma have to agree with Cross The Horizon on this one...

While it's always theoretically possible that the biggest limit demonstrably presented and shown in a verse isn't and shouldn't be the highest limit ever, the character is still capped by what the setting has shown so far for the intents and purposes of making a more definitive measure of scaling to determine who is stronger and higher.

Otherwise, it's just endless conjecture and mass-guessing.
 
Warlordgab said:
Nope...

While I wasn't there to witness the meltdown, I read a few things about it. The guy who wrote that verse did it unironically out of sheer saltiness over Getbackers not getting an universe level upgrade that was based on out-of-context and outright false information

Given he couldn't beat the OBD in a debate, he decided to write books to make avatars of his favorite characters as powerful as he wanted them to be

OBDers treat it as joke because the guy wrote what amounts to glorified fanfiction after getting too salty. Just saying it out loud is enough to make someone realize how absurd the situation is
Click to expand...
Ahhhhhh "Omniversal Getbackers".

Dude you just took me all the way back to my days of as an OBD lurker in the 2009-2010 era with that comment.
 
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