Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

[Masterblack06]

Oh, I didn't notice sorry.

Okay so I'm seeing mention of some sort of black space. In order for othinus to be universal+ that black space needs to go as well. There needs to be nothing left in order to be above baseline universal, no time, no space, no existence.

If they can take each others attacks without dying their durability is equal to their attack power.

What's their attack power then. Just saying they can take each others attacks tells me nothing.

 

[Masterblack06]

Quick unrelated note but our observable universe is 93 billion ly. But the entire thing as minimum is estimated to be 23 trillion. I don't think there's a fiction alive that holds a candle

 

[Cryso Agori]

Okay so I'm seeing mention of some sort of black space. In order for othinus to be universal+ that black space needs to go as well. There needs to be nothing left in order to be above baseline universal, no time, no space, no existence.

The phases and universal destruction are explained better in the actual phase explanation post, but what Othinus did was create a phase to destroy all the other phases.

What's their attack power then. Just saying they can take each others attacks tells me nothing.

Not weakened TMG's are capable of shattering all the phases and universe simply by moving there arms and legs. Infinitely weakened TMG's are capable of fighting Crowley with Blasting Rod and still are able to pull off the destroy the universe thing.

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...

onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...

onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...

onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...

onelastforum.com

 

[Masterblack06]

The phases and universal destruction are explained better in the actual phase explanation post, but what Othinus did was create a phase to destroy all the other phases.

Was there a point where nothing existed?

Not weakened TMG's are capable of shattering all the phases and universe simply by moving there arms and legs. Infinitely weakened TMG's are capable of fighting Crowley with Blasting Rod and still are able to pull off the destroy the universe thing.

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...

onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...

onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...

onelastforum.com

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

Also @Irradiance, @Mr.OMG don't TMG's react to Corozon's Magick Flaming Sword? Can you post that speed feat? Do they? Not sure I remember them doing it, although it's possible. IIRC some people reacted to it. Personally, I don't buy the "infinite acceleration" in the spells magic babble to be...

onelastforum.com

See your bringing up the infinitely weakened thing and that doesn't work because of how infinity works. I could have sworn I explained this before. And don't give me "they ignore how it works" cause then that's not infinity at that point. That's some fanfiction version of infinity that has limits to it

 

[Masterblack06]

Rev I see you lurking. Just get in here and talk man. Me and goldenboy are talking just fine. I think irradiance is also here but I've only responded to him once so he might be super busy

 

[Masterblack06]

Also this is why yall need to finish that respect thread. That way yall don't have to go digging for feats you can just post the relevant part from the thread and be good to go

 

[Cryso Agori]

Was there a point where nothing existed?

Kinda, in NT 9 when she uses Gungnir all the phases starts getting destroyed, but NT 10 retconned that by introducing the hidden phase which is a super special phase of non-existence.

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases. Yeah, I already posted that but thanks.

onelastforum.com

See your bringing up the infinitely weakened thing and that doesn't work because of how infinity works. I could have sworn I explained this before. And don't give me "they ignore how it works" cause then that's not infinity at that point. That's some fanfiction version of infinity that has limits to it

Eh, I just say that cause that's how the story depicts them. I'll just say weakened magic gods then if you object to that.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

You didn't say why it wasn't universal+ just that it isn't. You never said that destroying things outside the universe is what's accepted as universal+ till now neither did Blade.

No, I did say that in a different phrase of destroying multiple planets at once doesn't = you being Star level or Galaxy. You are still just Planetary.
It would still matter even when it comes to Universes and Multiple Universes.

 

[Irradiance]

What's their attack power then. Just saying they can take each others attacks tells me nothing.

Othinus can destroy the universe and all phases simultaneously (except the hidden world of nonexistence) i.e. she destroyed everything in the ToAru verse with one exception:

A human could not defeat a god.

The convenience of the god had priority over everything in the human’s world and the workings of the world would act accordingly.

No other characteristic felt more strongly like the power of a god.

Rather than showing simple destructive power by blowing away a mountain or vaporizing the sea, it bluntly indicated the precedence of the god.

In other words, the instant that lance left Othinus’s hands, the world would be blown to pieces.

Time returned to normal.

Kamijou once more felt space spread out around him.

As the lance was fired with tremendous force, the “happy world” was smashed to pieces as if space itself was being torn apart. As a fragment of the world approached with the force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.

Everything was ripped up.

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

This black world was the place not even Magic God Othinus had been able to destroy.

That would include the hundreds of billions of phases (i.e. dimensions) Othinus created to torture Touma:

"But still," muttered fifteen centimeter Othinus. "Through all of those hundreds of billions of phases, I missed the Misaka Network that manipulated the border between life and death. Does he also contain the possibility to always show up or appear anew in every world or phase I created?"

Those phases are each universal in size (there are even more phases she destroys but those are possible not universal in size).

Now why they are universal in size is a bit hard to show by a brief quote.
It's simply that Othinus first completely erases the world (we see complete blackness with no stars at all in an image and are told there is nothing 360° around) and then starts creating one world after another, which are all altered copies from the original one.
Like, she creates a world which is the same but people decided Touma is the enemy. Or she creates the "Happy World" in which everyone got saved, nobody had to die before their time and every problem in the world was resolved.
That's the entire content of the Volume NT 9 so a little hard to put into a single quote. Maybe a few here:

“Also, the continuity of the world no longer matters. The world truly came to an end. Sigh… I went out of my way to show you, so please don’t tell me you have already forgotten. This is not a nightmare you will eventually wake up from and it is not a meaningless illusion. This is the current world. I am a god and I made it this way. You can delude yourself if you like, but only one fate awaits you if you refuse to deal with the reality before you.”

He saw countless worlds and experienced countless forms of despair.

Some clearly cornered Kamijou Touma and attempted to crush him. Strange false accusations were forced onto him and a noose was put around his neck. He was stranded on a mountain with some acquaintances and he was forced to distribute his flesh to the others so they could survive until rescue arrived. He was lying unable to move on a hospital bed and was simply stuck like that all the way to his funeral. He was buried in humus and began to decompose while still alive, starting with the ends of the arms and legs. Earth was rendered unlivable and he was thrown into outer space to wander aimlessly in a capsule-like spaceship. As a puny human, he was destroyed by a giant robot or an asteroid.

That boy…

“Kamijou Touma” sat in shock in the very corner desk of the classroom lit by orange light. His arms and legs hung limply down and his eyes blankly viewed Othinus’s slightly altered world.

His breathing was erratic.

In the end, history will record it like this: the Magic God repeatedly destroyed the world and created new ones to make a single boy suffer as much as possible.”

“………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………”

“The man who names himself the Silver Star seems to have been attempting to directly tamper with the ‘pure world’ beyond all the filters…that is, the world of science that is unaffected by religion. …Honestly, you are quite fortunate to see this. Not even the Golden cabal of Europe that dreamed in Tibet was able to reach this point.”

Pretty sure goldenboy had a bunch more quotes on the subject somewhere in his collections.

 

[Cryso Agori]

Othinus can destroy the universe and all phases simultaneously (except the hidden world of nonexistence) i.e. she destroyed everything in the ToAru verse with one exception:


That would include the hundreds of billions of phases (i.e. dimensions) Othinus created to torture Touma:

Those phases are each universal in size (there are even more phases she destroys but those are possible not universal in size).

Now why they are universal in size is a bit hard to show by a brief quote.
It's simply that Othinus first completely erases the world (we see complete blackness with no stars at all in an image and are told there is nothing 360° around) and then starts creating one world after another, which are all altered copies from the original one.
Like, she creates a world which is the same but people decided Touma is the enemy. Or she creates the "Happy World" in which everyone got saved, nobody had to die before their time and every problem in the world was resolved.
That's the entire content of the Volume NT 9 so a little hard to put into a single quote. Maybe a few here:




Pretty sure goldenboy had a bunch more quotes on the subject somewhere in his collections.

Yes, I posted them all on the front page.

 

[Cryso Agori]

No, I did say that in a different phrase of destroying multiple planets at once doesn't = you being Star level or Galaxy. You are still just Planetary.
It would still matter even when it comes to Universes and Multiple Universes.

That's why it didn't make sense to me, I thought you were bringing up the scale, not that the outside of the universe also has to be destroyed to be considered universal+.

 

[Mr.OMG]

Rev I see you lurking. Just get in here and talk man. Me and goldenboy are talking just fine. I think irradiance is also here but I've only responded to him once so he might be super busy

A Magical God can only be wounded by another Magical God.

"But you are at least faintly aware of it, aren't you?" The High Priest seemed to be testing him. "We Magic Gods have everything. We have the power to destroy the world and remake it from scratch. Also, we feel no threat from the outside world. An attack from anything other than a Magic God would be less noticeable than a mosquito bite."

And the Magical God is powerful enough that even his mere inaction and fact of existence destroys the universe.

"I already said that we have no interest in the outside world. The different Magic Gods are fighting over the limited resources to decide what to do with the one and only world. Whether we peacefully talk it out or exchange blows, our actions could unintentionally shake destiny to the point that the outside world is destroyed. Even for us, there are areas where we do not know what should be done with the world and cannot tell where the world is headed. But what if we could provide a definite directional focus with a singular set of values?"

"The gathering of Magic Gods known as Gremlin could also be called the keyboard connected to the world and to destiny. Simply having someone push or pull at it is enough to distort the current age. It isn't an issue of any individual. We are all bringing about change. And we do so whether we continue forward or turn back. No, even doing nothing affects it."

 

[Masterblack06]

Kinda, in NT 9 when she uses Gungnir all the phases starts getting destroyed, but NT 10 retconned that by introducing the hidden phase which is a super special phase of non-existence.

Mad God Genis-Vell vs ToAru

I'll just add for myself that the Magical Gods have explored the entire universe and all the piled-up Phases. Yeah, I already posted that but thanks.

onelastforum.com

Eh, I just say that cause that's how the story depicts them. I'll just say weakened magic gods then if you object to that.

Othinus can destroy the universe and all phases simultaneously (except the hidden world of nonexistence) i.e. she destroyed everything in the ToAru verse with one exception:


That would include the hundreds of billions of phases (i.e. dimensions) Othinus created to torture Touma:

Those phases are each universal in size (there are even more phases she destroys but those are possible not universal in size).

Now why they are universal in size is a bit hard to show by a brief quote.
It's simply that Othinus first completely erases the world (we see complete blackness with no stars at all in an image and are told there is nothing 360° around) and then starts creating one world after another, which are all altered copies from the original one.
Like, she creates a world which is the same but people decided Touma is the enemy. Or she creates the "Happy World" in which everyone got saved, nobody had to die before their time and every problem in the world was resolved.
That's the entire content of the Volume NT 9 so a little hard to put into a single quote. Maybe a few here:




Pretty sure goldenboy had a bunch more quotes on the subject somewhere in his collections.

Okay then yeah that retcon fucks it up then. If she destroyed everything and THEN made something to exist within that you'd have an argument for it but if that hidden world was already there the. She's stuck at just universal.

Because we don't have a definitive scale to put the "True magic gods" at and if they are truly the top tier of the setting then at best they would have the durability and scaling of the strongest shown character in the series but just be above them slightly.

The author of to aru needs to get on that shit so the ambiguity can go away and yall can just have a definitive shit for your verse cause I'd be getting frustrated with this shit

 

[Masterblack06]

A Magical God can only be wounded by another Magical God.

And the Magical God is powerful enough that even his mere inaction and fact of existence destroys the universe.

Dang it omg you always post after I make a response man

 

[Irradiance]

Okay then yeah that retcon fucks it up then. If she destroyed everything and THEN made something to exist within that you'd have an argument for it but if that hidden world was already there the. She's stuck at just universal.

Because we don't have a definitive scale to put the "True magic gods" at and if they are truly the top tier of the setting then at best they would have the durability and scaling of the strongest shown character in the series but just be above them slightly.

The author of to aru needs to get on that shit so the ambiguity can go away and yall can just have a definitive shit for your verse cause I'd be getting frustrated with this shit

I don't really get your line of thought here. What the "it" is in "you'd have an argument for it"? What was retconned?
What difference does it make whether she just destroyed everything or destroyed everything and then created something afterwards?

I mean, strictly speaking the hidden world wasn't even there as the hidden world doesn't exist

It may have been wrong to refer to that place as dark. In fact, the word “place” was not entirely accurate either. Non-existent things could not be explained. Nevertheless, a few voices lurked within where no one could interfere.

Yeah, for paradoxical places that exist yet don't exist.
And after only this nonexistence was left she technically did create something, as she afterwards recreated the regular universe.

Anyways, what I'm personally arguing for here is that Othinus is very high-end on the universal scale (or call it universal+ if you like) due to destroying what essentially is hundreds of billions of universe-sized spaces at once. Is there any problem with being very high-end universe level for that?

 

[Masterblack06]

I don't really get your line of thought here. What the "it" is in "you'd have an argument for it"? What was retconned?
What difference does it make whether she just destroyed everything or destroyed everything and then created something afterwards?

I mean, strictly speaking the hidden world wasn't even there as the hidden world doesn't exist

Yeah, for paradoxical places that exist yet don't exist.
And after only this nonexistence was left she technically did create something, as she afterwards recreated the regular universe.

Anyways, what I'm personally arguing for here is that Othinus is very high-end on the universal scale (or call it universal+ if you like) due to destroying what essentially is hundreds of billions of universe-sized spaces at once. Is there any problem with being very high-end universe level for that?

Okay I kinda figured what I said made no sense. I was at work and typing between customers but once I get home I'll fully explain what I meant properly

 

[Masterblack06]

I don't really get your line of thought here. What the "it" is in "you'd have an argument for it"?

Universal+

What was retconned?

goldenboy said the hidden place being there was retconned

What difference does it make whether she just destroyed everything or destroyed everything and then created something afterwards?

if you destroy the universe but there's still stuff left hanging around then you'd be just universal. you have to delete the universe in its entirety with nothing but nothingness being left over to be considered for anything higher

I mean, strictly speaking the hidden world wasn't even there as the hidden world doesn't exist

Anyways, what I'm personally arguing for here is that Othinus is very high-end on the universal scale (or call it universal+ if you like) due to destroying what essentially is hundreds of billions of universe-sized spaces at once. Is there any problem with being very high-end universe level for that?

High-End Universal is fine with me.

 

[Mr.OMG]

goldenboy said the hidden place being there was retconned

So, no, the Hidden Phase was not affected by Othinus, because the Hidden World Phase is outside of all Phases and the universe. And the destruction of the Phases and the universe did not affect the abode of the Magical Gods in any way.

The darkness audibly split apart.

An external power caused a vertical tear.

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

This black world was the place not even Magic God Othinus had been able to destroy.

 

[Irradiance]

if you destroy the universe but there's still stuff left hanging around then you'd be just universal. you have to delete the universe in its entirety with nothing but nothingness being left over to be considered for anything higher

Why is that the difference between universal and universal+, though? Why would that, for example, make a character more powerful than a character that can do the same to 100x more dimensions of equal size at once but every time leaves a sandcorn behind after the destruction of spacetime?

Heck, the hidden world has no (proper concept of) spacetime and has a nature of "nonexistence" (and of course no matter was left either, but that was already the case before). In many fictions that would be considered as nothing being left.
Turning this around, if something of the hidden world's nature being left disqualifies from being universal+, that would then mean that other characters that are supposed to be universal+ must prove that their feat of complete universes destruction is in fact so complete that not even something of that nature could remain, right? So they would need better feats than just erasing the entire spacetime and matter of a single universe-sized space?

In fact, the hidden world doesn't even exist within regular 3D space:

“Letting Othinus run free would have been a problem, but I left that to the strength of the world. The world was temporarily led to destruction as a result, but I still had to prioritize this. It wasn’t easy converting coordinates filled with non-existent numbers into decimal.”

So it doesn't even count as "part of the universe" in a spatial sense.

 

[Masterblack06]

Why is that the difference between universal and universal+, though? Why would that, for example, make a character more powerful than a character that can do the same to 100x more dimensions of equal size at once but every time leaves a sandcorn behind after the destruction of spacetime?

Heck, the hidden world has no (proper concept of) spacetime and has a nature of "nonexistence" (and of course no matter was left either, but that was already the case before). In many fictions that would be considered as nothing being left.
Turning this around, if something of the hidden world's nature being left disqualifies from being universal+, that would then mean that other characters that are supposed to be universal+ must prove that their feat of complete universes destruction is in fact so complete that not even something of that nature could remain, right? So they would need better feats than just erasing the entire spacetime and matter of a single universe-sized space?

In fact, the hidden world doesn't even exist within regular 3D space:

So it doesn't even count as "part of the universe" in a spatial sense.

Destroying a universe a million times over would still only make you universal unless you did that all at once. having 100s of dimensions inside that universe doesn't change that because its all still one universe. If she had destroyed the hidden place as well it would be an argument that can be used because she destroyed a universe PLUS something else along with it. Destroying a universe and a half with one blast would easily put you at Universal+ while destroying 2 universes with one blast would put you at multiversal.

She needs to do more than just pop a singular universe multiple times